Is this appropriate?

[yamaha]

Hi all 

At my lesson on Mon, my teacher was explaining some theory to me and because she thought (wrongly) that I didn't understand she suddenly SHOUTED  "Oh, you're doing my head in!!"  She then snatched a piece of manuscript paper off me, angrily wrote down the solution and said "there, whats the problem!!?"

I was sooo shocked  and very upset    I could hardly look at her for the rest of the lesson for fear that I may cry, which I did (once I was safely outside  )

Is this reasonable behaviour do you think?  I wouldnt mind being shouted at if I hadnt done set work, assignments etc, but just because I didnt understand something!! (she thought)

I am thinking of phoning her to get this of my chest because I am feeling like I dont want to go back.  What do you think?

[claudio]

call her. mayby she had a bad day and is already full of remorse. there are only a few good teacher (as well as people  ) and sometimes one needs to be generous (even emotionally) to keep and befriend them.

[Sketchee]

It's possible she just did it as a different way of getting your attention on the subject.  I've seen some teachers resort to some strange, but effective solutions very similar to what you describe.

In any case, teachers are people too and therefore aren't perfect or can't know what's really on your mind.  I definitely think you should tell her your concerns and ask her about it.

[cysoto]

Maybe it’s time to start looking for a new teacher… 

I am a firm believer that teachers (in all fields) are motivators.  No instructor should ever loose patience with one of his students regardless of the situation.  I don’t care if they had a bad day or not.  If this was the case, it certainly wasn’t your fault.  This behavior is completely unacceptable.  They get paid to impart their knowledge not share their feelings of anger.  Never confuse this with your teacher being strict or trying to motivate you.  It all comes down to you being their customer and, if they can’t treat you as such, they don’t deserve your business.

Good teachers are hard to find.  They need to be both proficient in their field and with infinite patient toward their students (not everyone learns at the same pace).  It’s also important that they can learn to detach themselves from personal situations than can create stress on their pupils.  If they can’t do this, I don’t care how much of a virtuoso they may be; I certainly don’t want them as my teacher.

[xvimbi]

Maybe it’s time to start looking for a new teacher… 

I am a firm believer that teachers (in all fields) are motivators.  No instructor should ever loose patience with one of his students regardless of the situation.  I don’t care if they had a bad day or not.  If this was the case, it certainly wasn’t your fault.  This behavior is completely unacceptable.  They get paid to impart their knowledge not share their feelings of anger.  Never confuse this with your teacher being strict or trying to motivate you.  It all comes down to you being their customer and, if they can’t treat you as such, they don’t deserve your business.

Good teachers are hard to find.  They need to be both proficient in their field and with infinite patient toward their students (not everyone learns at the same pace).  It’s also important that they can learn to detach themselves from personal situations than can create stress on their pupils.  If they can’t do this, I don’t care how much of a virtuoso they may be; I certainly don’t want them as my teacher.

I disagree. As mentioned before, teachers are human too. All aspects have to be taken into account in a personal relationship. If one would be as strict as you propose, any teacher should immediately release, on similar grounds, any student who didn't do his/her homework. Teachers give students breaks all the time, students need to give their teachers a break too every now and then.

The situation would be different if it's a recurring theme and could be considered a "method", but it is not in this case, so I wouldn't take it too seriously at this point.

[cysoto]

Teachers give students breaks all the time, students need to give their teachers a break too every now and then.

I respect your disagreement but I would like to tell you why I think the way I do.

The reason why teachers give students all these “breaks” that you talk about is because they understand that students have a life outside of piano.  Young students have to study for school and adult students have to work and leave time for their family.  Also keep in mind that, as I mentioned before, students are paying to be thought and not reprimanded. 

I understand that teachers are human too and that they may have had a bad day (or two) but this is no excuse to EVER loose your cool with a student and yell at them; even worse to snatch a paper from their hands, a clear sign of anger. 

I am a business person and I must be very honest when I tell you that I don’t agree with my customers 100% of the time but, they help pay for my mortgage and I must find ways to keep them happy.  I would never yell at any of my clients because I value them and I want to treat them as friends.  They are the reason why I am in business and I value each and every one of them. 

If I where having a bad day, and there is no way for me to separate myself from that feeling or situation, I would much rather reschedule my appointment.  I don’t know if this is the same in all parts of the World but in my corner of the World the customer is always treated as a King (and respect for them and their feelings is a top priority). 

[xvimbi]

I respect your disagreement but I would like to tell you why I think the way I do.

The reason why teachers give students all these “breaks” that you talk about is because they understand that students have a life outside of piano.  Young students have to study for school and adult students have to work and leave time for their family.  Also keep in mind that, as I mentioned before, students are paying to be thought and not reprimanded. 

I understand that teachers are human too and that they may have had a bad day (or two) but this is no excuse to EVER loose your cool with a student and yell at them; even worse to snatch a paper from their hands, a clear sign of anger. 

I am a business person and I must be very honest when I tell you that I don’t agree with my customers 100% of the time but, they help pay for my mortgage and I must find ways to keep them happy.  I would never yell at any of my clients because I value them and I want to treat them as friends.  They are the reason why I am in business and I value each and every one of them. 

If I where having a bad day, and there is no way for me to separate myself from that feeling or situation, I would much rather reschedule my appointment.  I don’t know if this is the same in all parts of the World but in my corner of the World the customer is always treated as a King (and respect for them and their feelings is a top priority). 

I understand your point, however, I believe that student/teacher relationships are different from business-like relationships, even if the teacher gets paid by the student. Most teachers have passion for their students, which implies an emotional component in their relationships.

You are saying that you would sometimes like to get angry at your customers, or even, perhaps, that there is a genuine reason to get angry at them, yet you don't. This is fundamentally a dishonest reaction that is merely motivated by trying to keep the customer happy, no matter what, because he is forking over money. Don't get me wrong, I am not accusing YOU of anything here, I am just pondering this type of situation in general. I think, if there is genuine reason to get upset, one should get upset, because it is the honest and often the most productive reaction. If you suppress genuine emotions, the customer is practically "buying" you.

Of course, one must put food on the table, so there are clearly considerations other than what I just mentioned. The other question is whether there was any reason to really get upset. Even if there wasn't a reason, I would still tend to forgget this incident, because it seems to be an isolated occurrence.

[yamaha]

Thanks everyone for the replies    I am still undecided about calling her, have to make up my mind I suppose    I don't know, "you're doing my head in!" just seems so......erm.......well, rude really.    I was kind of hoping tha she was going to call me but she hasn't.  Oh well 

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

Hi all 

At my lesson on Mon, my teacher was explaining some theory to me and because she thought (wrongly) that I didn't understand she suddenly SHOUTED  "Oh, you're doing my head in!!"  She then snatched a piece of manuscript paper off me, angrily wrote down the solution and said "there, whats the problem!!?"

I was sooo shocked  and very upset    I could hardly look at her for the rest of the lesson for fear that I may cry, which I did (once I was safely outside  )

Is this reasonable behaviour do you think?  I wouldnt mind being shouted at if I hadnt done set work, assignments etc, but just because I didnt understand something!! (she thought)

I am thinking of phoning her to get this of my chest because I am feeling like I dont want to go back.  What do you think?

I think you are being ridiculous, really... Seriously, what a small thing to get all upset about. I'm sorry for being so blunt, but really, why would this make you want to switch teachers? Why would it even make you cry???

I'm sorry, but this really isn't important enough to get so worked up about.

- Ludwig Van Rachabji

[galonia]

I agree with both Ludwig Van Rachabji and xvimbi - firstly, you can't go around changing teachers just because you were upset by her at one lesson.  And it's true that music teachers see their students as more than just "customers" - there is a very strong emotional attachment and it's a very personal relationship.  My teacher considers me her "grand-pupil" because when I was little, I learnt with one of her former students, and I know other former students bring their babies in to see her - our teacher treats us like her children.  You don't divorce your parents because they were impatient with you, so why get so upset at your teacher?

[donjuan]

My teacher yelled like that at me before.. But he was more frustrated than angry because I was playing Fountains of the Villa d"este too robotically, and when he made attempts to try to make me bring out this or that phrase, I tried and failed.  Eventually he got so upset he told me to practice and left the room for 5 minutes.  When he came back, both of us seemed so reluctant to do anything.  It was so awkward..he shouted at me some more, my fingers were shaking....

I left the lesson seriously feeling like quitting- like really? whats the point??  But as the day wore on, I began to understand the situation from my teachers point of view.  now I know he didnt yell at me because he hates me or doesnt want to help, but did it to force me to let down my guard and try new ways of doing things.  It is in our nature to disagree and believe we are right.  I am so thankful to have a teacher to enoble me- to see a bigger picture.  Sometimes a teacher has to shout to make us improve.  It's just one of those things...

dont make any rash decisions.  Go to your next lesson and maybe talk about what happened the previous lesson.  I am sure you will walk out feeling much better- understanding motives, that is.  Make sure the error is on her part before thinking about switching teachers.  I think it is quite possible to not understand something while thinking you do.  In music, you have to SHOW you understand.  If you dont show it, then you dont really understand..  Obviously you didnt convince her you understood.  What was she trying to teach you that lesson?

donjuan

donjuan

[yamaha]

Hi all 

At my lesson on Mon, my teacher was explaining some theory to me and because she thought (wrongly) that I didn't understand she suddenly SHOUTED  "Oh, you're doing my head in!!"  She then snatched a piece of manuscript paper off me, angrily wrote down the solution and said "there, whats the problem!!?"

I was sooo shocked  and very upset    I could hardly look at her for the rest of the lesson for fear that I may cry, which I did (once I was safely outside  )

Is this reasonable behaviour do you think?  I wouldnt mind being shouted at if I hadnt done set work, assignments etc, but just because I didnt understand something!! (she thought)

I am thinking of phoning her to get this of my chest because I am feeling like I dont want to go back.  What do you think?

I think you are being ridiculous, really... Seriously, what a small thing to get all upset about. I'm sorry for being so blunt, but really, why would this make you want to switch teachers? Why would it even make you cry???

I'm sorry, but this really isn't important enough to get so worked up about.

- Ludwig Van Rachabji

I appreciate what you are saying but this isn't the only problem with my teacher.  I am a diploma student and have considered leaving before for various reasons.  When I was preparing for my diploma, which I sat (and failed) in July she gave me NO help at all.  She didnt even read the syllabus, which I provided, I know this because she didnt know there was a sight reading section or that there was a viva voce.  When I told her about these elements of the exam she still didnt assist at all with the the preparation for the viva.  I didnt expect her to do the work for me but thought she may give me some projects to do, ie, specific subjects to read up on etc.  As it is, I prepared the whole viva myself,  I made a huuuugge    list of possible questions and researched all the answers etc.  Also, at that time she didn't give me any feedback at all when I played during the lesson, not positive or negative, she would just sit there and say...................nothing!!!   One time when I pushed for a comment she said "I thought you could have brought the subject out better  (a Bach fugue) somewhere but I'm not sure which entry of the subject it was!   Admittedly she does give a bit more feedback now though, I think she was shocked when I failed.  She has never entered anyone for a Dip before and I dont think she realised the standard required.  She would often compare the Dip with the grades eg: one of her grade 1 pupils played one of his pieces an octave too high but he still got a distinction because his playing was beautiful!! etc...  I actually missed taking the Dip in the Nov session, we planned to wait until the March but it turned out the Dip are only held twice a year, Nov and July, she didnt know as she hadnt read the syllabus. Of course, I could have looked up the dates myself but you expect your teacher to read the syllabus surely!!?    I still think though that to shout at a pupil that they are "doing your head in" , for ANY reason, is very unprofessional.

My teacher yelled like that at me before.. But he was more frustrated than angry because I was playing Fountains of the Villa d"este too robotically, and when he made attempts to try to make me bring out this or that phrase, I tried and failed. Eventually he got so upset he told me to practice and left the room for 5 minutes. When he came back, both of us seemed so reluctant to do anything. It was so awkward..he shouted at me some more, my fingers were shaking....

I left the lesson seriously feeling like quitting- like really? whats the point?? But as the day wore on, I began to understand the situation from my teachers point of view. now I know he didnt yell at me because he hates me or doesnt want to help, but did it to force me to let down my guard and try new ways of doing things. It is in our nature to disagree and believe we are right. I am so thankful to have a teacher to enoble me- to see a bigger picture. Sometimes a teacher has to shout to make us improve. It's just one of those things...

dont make any rash decisions. Go to your next lesson and maybe talk about what happened the previous lesson. I am sure you will walk out feeling much better- understanding motives, that is. Make sure the error is on her part before thinking about switching teachers. I think it is quite possible to not understand something while thinking you do. In music, you have to SHOW you understand. If you dont show it, then you dont really understand.. Obviously you didnt convince her you understood. What was she trying to teach you that lesson?

donjuan

donjuan

I was just asking her how she would go about teaching the writing out of ornaments that is required Grade 5 theory because I am hoping to do a teaching Dip next year.  I knew the answers to the questions, I just wondered if she had a super easy way of teaching the subject.  Always interested in other peoples approaches although I wish I hadn't asked now.

[xvimbi]

...
I still think though that to shout at a pupil that they are "doing your head in" , for ANY reason, is very unprofessional.

So there IS more to the story. Well then, in this case, you will have to make a decision, and it seems you have made it already.

[cysoto]

Yamaha,

After reading your recent post I have to say that I am amazed that it took you so long to understand that you needed a new teacher.  You've had to put up with quite a bit.  You are a very patient and forgiving person but this teacher is doing nothing else than holding you back in your progress.

Some people are just not cut for certain jobs and, by the looks of it, your teacher is a good example of this.

[yamaha]

Yamaha,

After reading your recent post I have to say that I am amazed that it took you so long to understand that you needed a new teacher.  You've had to put up with quite a bit.  You are a very patient and forgiving person but this teacher is doing nothing else than holding you back in your progress.

Some people are just not cut for certain jobs and, by the looks of it, your teacher is a good example of this.

The trouble is, as we all know, good teachers are hard to find and there doesn't seem to be anyone else in my area that takes students above Grade 8     Bernhard............ do you do home visits? 

[donjuan]

Well, Yamaha, if you really are giving a fair representation of your teacher (you arent just exaggerating out of anger that is), then I take back what I said. You need a teacher that works for you, and should dump the one you have.
donjuan

[yamaha]

Well, Yamaha, if you really are giving a fair representation of your teacher (you arent just exaggerating out of anger that is), then I take back what I said. You need a teacher that works for you, and should dump the one you have.
donjuan

It does sound rather bad doesnt it?  When I see my complaints in print it makes me think I should change teachers.  Its easy to forget individual things that upset/disappoint me but when I read my own post..........   I can see why you may wonder if I am exaggerating     I'm not however, unfortunately. 

Thanks so much for all the advice everyone, it has given me plenty to think about.      This forum is fantastic 

[Hmoll]

The trouble is, as we all know, good teachers are hard to find ...

Well, it doen't look like you've found one in her.

She is obviously unprofessional, and disconnected with her students. Start looking for soneone else.

[quebec75]

I'd start looking for a new teacher right away...one that never scolds you, never criticizes and only says what you want to hear.
Good Lord.

I'm trying to develop more expression in my playing. I wish I could have some of your sensitivity.

I'd take a good teacher that whipped me if it would improve my playing. (of course I'm from California).

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

Hi all 

At my lesson on Mon, my teacher was explaining some theory to me and because she thought (wrongly) that I didn't understand she suddenly SHOUTED  "Oh, you're doing my head in!!"  She then snatched a piece of manuscript paper off me, angrily wrote down the solution and said "there, whats the problem!!?"

I was sooo shocked  and very upset    I could hardly look at her for the rest of the lesson for fear that I may cry, which I did (once I was safely outside  )

Is this reasonable behaviour do you think?  I wouldnt mind being shouted at if I hadnt done set work, assignments etc, but just because I didnt understand something!! (she thought)

I am thinking of phoning her to get this of my chest because I am feeling like I dont want to go back.  What do you think?

I think you are being ridiculous, really... Seriously, what a small thing to get all upset about. I'm sorry for being so blunt, but really, why would this make you want to switch teachers? Why would it even make you cry???

I'm sorry, but this really isn't important enough to get so worked up about.

- Ludwig Van Rachabji

I appreciate what you are saying but this isn't the only problem with my teacher.  I am a diploma student and have considered leaving before for various reasons.  When I was preparing for my diploma, which I sat (and failed) in July she gave me NO help at all.  She didnt even read the syllabus, which I provided, I know this because she didnt know there was a sight reading section or that there was a viva voce.  When I told her about these elements of the exam she still didnt assist at all with the the preparation for the viva.  I didnt expect her to do the work for me but thought she may give me some projects to do, ie, specific subjects to read up on etc.  As it is, I prepared the whole viva myself,  I made a huuuugge    list of possible questions and researched all the answers etc.  Also, at that time she didn't give me any feedback at all when I played during the lesson, not positive or negative, she would just sit there and say...................nothing!!!   One time when I pushed for a comment she said "I thought you could have brought the subject out better  (a Bach fugue) somewhere but I'm not sure which entry of the subject it was!   Admittedly she does give a bit more feedback now though, I think she was shocked when I failed.  She has never entered anyone for a Dip before and I dont think she realised the standard required.  She would often compare the Dip with the grades eg: one of her grade 1 pupils played one of his pieces an octave too high but he still got a distinction because his playing was beautiful!! etc...  I actually missed taking the Dip in the Nov session, we planned to wait until the March but it turned out the Dip are only held twice a year, Nov and July, she didnt know as she hadnt read the syllabus. Of course, I could have looked up the dates myself but you expect your teacher to read the syllabus surely!!?    I still think though that to shout at a pupil that they are "doing your head in" , for ANY reason, is very unprofessional.

My teacher yelled like that at me before.. But he was more frustrated than angry because I was playing Fountains of the Villa d"este too robotically, and when he made attempts to try to make me bring out this or that phrase, I tried and failed. Eventually he got so upset he told me to practice and left the room for 5 minutes. When he came back, both of us seemed so reluctant to do anything. It was so awkward..he shouted at me some more, my fingers were shaking....

I left the lesson seriously feeling like quitting- like really? whats the point?? But as the day wore on, I began to understand the situation from my teachers point of view. now I know he didnt yell at me because he hates me or doesnt want to help, but did it to force me to let down my guard and try new ways of doing things. It is in our nature to disagree and believe we are right. I am so thankful to have a teacher to enoble me- to see a bigger picture. Sometimes a teacher has to shout to make us improve. It's just one of those things...

dont make any rash decisions. Go to your next lesson and maybe talk about what happened the previous lesson. I am sure you will walk out feeling much better- understanding motives, that is. Make sure the error is on her part before thinking about switching teachers. I think it is quite possible to not understand something while thinking you do. In music, you have to SHOW you understand. If you dont show it, then you dont really understand.. Obviously you didnt convince her you understood. What was she trying to teach you that lesson?

donjuan

donjuan

I was just asking her how she would go about teaching the writing out of ornaments that is required Grade 5 theory because I am hoping to do a teaching Dip next year.  I knew the answers to the questions, I just wondered if she had a super easy way of teaching the subject.  Always interested in other peoples approaches although I wish I hadn't asked now.

I'm sorry if what I said seemed a bit harsh. I had the feeling that you were exaggerating. If the teacher said this just because you didn't understand, then I agree that you should change teachers, or atleast talk to your current one. Teachers are human too.

- Ludwig Van Rachabji

[galonia]

I think there are a lot of issues that are intertwined here.

1. Teacher - student relationship is a human relationship, so there will always be some friction.  You have to find a teacher you get along with as a person, and that's going to be different for everyone.

2. If your teacher simply does not teach at the level you're at, then you need a teacher who does.

3. In terms of the teacher reading the syllabus - my teacher doesn't.  Her job is to prepare me for performance, which at a diploma level is what you need to do.  It's not anything like the grades.  Actually, even for her students who are sitting grade exams, my teacher doesn't teach anything except the repertoire.  We all have separate teachers for the other aspects if we want (e.g. aural, harmony, etc).  It's completely up to us to work out what is required in the exam for ourselves; the teacher only comments on our performance.

You need to work out what you need and what you want from a teacher.

[yamaha]

I'd start looking for a new teacher right away...one that never scolds you, never criticizes and only says what you want to hear.
Good Lord.

I'm trying to develop more expression in my playing. I wish I could have some of your sensitivity.

I'd take a good teacher that whipped me if it would improve my playing. (of course I'm from California).

    V funny.  However, maybe you didn't read all of my post/s 

[MrRonsMusic]

Your teacher is obviously a frustrated "wanted to be performer!"  Seek out another teacher immediately...  I teach students of all ages, and the behavior you described is unprofessional.

Mr. Ron
https://www.mrronsmusic.com

[lostinidlewonder]

Life is tough. People aren't all nice all the time. You learn to live with that and not get upset. I wouldn't take any of it personally because seriously what wrong have you done? Nothing. So there is nothing to worry about except the person reaction, which is totally their own and doesn't follow your life when you leave the class.

[yamaha]

Thanks everyone    What a great forum