Can't play descending scales with right hand evenly

[cuberdrift]

First off being a left-handed, I understand my left seems to be naturally stronger than my right. It appears to be indeed more firm than my right, although I'd say that 3-4-5 in my right performs better than my left's 3-4-5.

Unfortunately, my right's 3-2-1 doesn't do its job well enough.

It is possible that this is a result of a finger injury over a year ago, involving a deep cut in my right index finger. I had not been able to use my right for a few months and had (still sometimes have) the habit of avoiding using the index finger extensively - the area below the 2nd & 3rd joints (from the knuckle area, to be specific I'm referring to the joint by the nail, and the one next to that) are pretty much almost completely insensitive and it feels pretty weird on the piano keys even up to now.

I don't know how this began but I had recently become conscious of my right hand scales. Ascending scales are okay but my God, descending ones are terrible! Played slowly they sound alright - I practice them at a rather slow but firm pace, but I can't manage to pull off a quick scale run smoothly.

What is worst is when I do a scale run with 1-2-3-4, repetitively (a fingering suggested in one Czerny etude). Ironically, a while back when I wasn't that conscious of my right hand's inferiority, I could pull off this scale pretty good - now that I've tried to mend the problem it sounds terribly uneven to the point that I stop at that particular passage just because it sounded so bad. It really felt like I was sliding the keys or something to that effect - no hint of crispness or clarity whatsoever.

This seems to have something with the annoying combo 3-2-1. It sounds like I am "sliding" the run - incapable of making each note sound even and independent. This sucks because I can pull off an ascending left hand run perfectly fine. My right hand is now painfully jealous of my left.

What to do what to do  ...

Thanks for reading (and hopefully) helping.

[awesom_o]

Practice ALL major and minor scales in formula pattern!

Practice improvising alone with your non-dominant hand!

Work on building up the skills of your non-dominant hand in areas unrelated to music.

I highly recommend learning to juggle. Juggling is an ambidextrous activity in which both hands learn from each other, all of the time. It is extremely fun, and people will be jealous of how cool you are and how much fun you are having.

Before I really started taking juggling seriously, my non-dominant hand sounded noticeably weaker than my dominant hand at the piano, in every type of passage.

Since practicing juggling every day, both of my hands dominate the piano. 

[cuberdrift]

Practice, practice, work, juggle juggle dominate.

Thanks! Will look forward to doing that. 

The 'improvising' part is interesting. I find it easier to think of creative patters when I am putting less demand on my hands while improvising.

[awesom_o]

Do you know the formula patterns already?
Hopefully you are better than the kid in this video:

in which case you can start doing the 4-octave version, instead of the kiddie 2-octave version that he does.

[nyiregyhazi]

Do you know the formula patterns already?
Hopefully you are better than the kid in this video:

in which case you can start doing the 4-octave version, instead of the kiddie 2-octave version that he does.

Quite honestly, I think that's about the worst thing he can attempt right now. Trying more complex patterns for two hands and all keys would be like advising someone who says they have pain in octaves to practise octaves in every key. When a foundation movement is not working right, it's time to figure out what's wrong with the simplest version of the movement - not to run through tonnes of more complex situations in which the movement would have to be fudged even more severely. He needs situations in which he can devote his full attention to basic movements- not ones where his awareness is sapped by the necessity of thinking of all manner of black keys while having to worry about two hands together. You're talking about prescribing long division to someone who hasn't yet got used to addition or subtraction.

I'd just practise very slowly standing on every finger in a five finger C major position. The description makes it very clear that the arm is squashing down on inactive fingers. The arm needs to drift sideways while fingers move keys. Don't try to push down. Feel the finger trying to push the knuckle back up by expanding in length and making room- without downward arm pressure. The only way to improve the issue in a significant way is to keep things as simple as possible. Concentrate on fingers moving keys and then ending in a sustainable standing position where the knuckles stay clearly elevated. Then learn to drift the arm sideways while moving slowly between notes, so the arm doesn't press on any finger. Finally, learn to rip notes out quick- not with downward pressure but a single fluid sideways drift. It only smears when you shove down through inactive motionless fingers. Pilling on complexity doesn't generate necessary finger action. Having clear but simple intentions and observing each action with awareness is needed first.

[awesom_o]

There's nothing particularly complex about playing formula patterns. 
I have a 9-year-old student who can play almost all of them, and he barely practices a half-hour per day!

[nyiregyhazi]

There's nothing particularly complex about playing formula patterns.  
I have a 9-year-old student who can play almost all of them, and he barely practices a half-hour per day!

Does he struggle to play 321 without it being an imprecise smear? Advice need to be fit for context. Adding complexity isn't going to help this guy with the specific issues he raised here. Anything that reduces scope to truly observe his movements is only going to hinder. He needs to notice what he is currently doing and discover what need to be done more- which is best achieved by simply walking from finger to finger in a slow tempo and checking whether his arch is standing up through finger motion or getting squashed down through inactivity. Fixes are always best done hands separate, before you worry about any simultaneous things in another hand, or start trying to apply a faulty quality of movement to every single key. Throwing additional challenges down really doesn't help with fundaments that are not being adequately fulfilled. Bringing things down to basics is the way to build foundations.

[cuberdrift]

Thank you, nyiregyhazi. 

Does he struggle to play 321 without it being an imprecise smear? Advice need to be fit for context. Adding complexity isn't going to help this guy with the specific issues he raised here. Anything that reduces scope to truly observe his movements is only going to hinder. He needs to notice what he is really doing- which is best achieved by simply walking from finger to finger in a slow tempo and checking whether his arch is standing up through finger motion or getting squashed down through inactivity. Fixes are always best done hands separate, before you worry about any simultaneous things in another hand, or start trying to apply a faulty quality of movement to every single key.

It is easy for me to play 3-2-1 in slow motion well, it only gets to become an "imprecise smear" when done fast (by fast I mean Czerny speed, you know, sixteenth notes). I think there is a general lack of finger independence on my right, as opposed to my left. Then again, I find playing ascending scales with my right hand perfectly fine.

There's nothing particularly complex about playing formula patterns. 
I have a 9-year-old student who can play almost all of them, and he barely practices a half-hour per day!

What are the benefits that can be achieved my doing these formula patterns, over just playing ascending and descending scales over four octaves?

[awesom_o]

What are the benefits that can be achieved my doing these formula patterns, over just playing ascending and descending scales over four octaves?

You'll master the geography of the keyboard much faster with the formula patterns than with the regular ascending and descending scales.

Also, the formula patterns make each scale into a little musical duet for two hands, instead of just being a boring technical drill, going back and forth, up and down.

[skryabyn]

When you play your thumb, does your wrist come down a bit so you end up playing on the side of your thumb? If so, try keeping your wrist high so it feels like you're going over your thumb, not scooping under.

[nyiregyhazi]

Thank you, nyiregyhazi.  

It is easy for me to play 3-2-1 in slow motion well, it only gets to become an "imprecise smear" when done fast (by fast I mean Czerny speed, you know, sixteenth notes). I think there is a general lack of finger independence on my right, as opposed to my left. Then again, I find playing ascending scales with my right hand perfectly fine.

What are the benefits that can be achieved my doing these formula patterns, over just playing ascending and descending scales over four octaves?

Be aware that what seems fine at slow tempos rarely is. If it doesn't work at fast speeds, there's something not right in the the slow version either. It just doesn't expose the problem enough to get derailed. When you take small chunks and try them at many speeds, you start to learn what is wrong with the slow version. Use faster versions to expose problems and slower versions to correct them. You need to stand actively on every finger with elevated knuckles. Don't just play and then sag. Just because a slow version doesn't go wrong it doesn't mean it's training anything useful. You need to make a real effort to get the fingers actively joining the key to the keybed without depending on arm shoves- as that's the only thing that works faster.

PS. A high wrist can make room for the thumb but not necessarily (if the knuckles sag ). It's when the knuckles are elevated and the arch is open that there's room for the thumb, without any doubt- whether the wrist is high or not

[g_s_223]

To achieve evenness in regular figurations, one useful technique is to play the passage first in dotted note patterns: first long-short long-short etc, then short-long short-long etc. This can start as 2:1 (triplet) then 3:1 (dotted quaver-semiquaver) for example.

Then when one reverts to even notes, things seem smoother.

One should aim for slow, finger-legato (no pedal), fingering initially.

[bronnestam]

Yes, playing in dotted rythms is fine. The key to everything is to get relaxed, and dotted rythms can loose up a lot of tensions. At least it is like that for me.

BUT the main thing is: just relax. So, your descending scales are uneven. So. Let them be that for now. Ironically this careless attitude is what, eventually, will solve the problem.

I have been believing for years and for decades, that I cannot play fast. I have admired and envied those who can. My "reflexes are not quick enough", etcetera. And after having given up on TRYING, I went to just playing around and having fun. I played dotted rythms and broken chords (sometimes not so broken) instead of TRYING to move my fingers fast and even. And the other day my teacher spontaneously said "well, you are certainly very good at playing fast, I am impressed".

Huh? So, when I stopped focusing on making things perfect, they became a lot better.

[cuberdrift]

Sorry, had to bump this one because ir's really starting o be a pain in the arsche.

I have figured out that the problem lies largely on my index finger (2). This I'm quite certain of because  all the other digits are fine, and when I try doing a scale WITHOUT  no. 2 it is almost as even as a scale done by the left hand using those same fingers.

Now here's why I didn't notice anything before. I believe I had subconsciously built up the habit of curving the fingers, #2 included, so much so that the nails almost, if not actually reach the keys (I make sure my nails are trimmed, however). This neat trick somehow eliminated the possibility of no.2 unleashing its incompetence on its entire parent hand, wreaking havoc on what would otherwise be a crisp, quick, and clean descending scale run.

The left hand had not picked up this habit,  and there is nothing wrong with it.

I'm convinced that both hands' positions are just right.

Finally, it is noteworthy to re-mention my surgical operation on RH's index finger. The 2nd and 3rd segments are largely numb. Could this be the cause?

Thank you once more for your advice.

[hfmadopter]

Sorry, had to bump this one because ir's really starting o be a pain in the arsche.

I have figured out that the problem lies largely on my index finger (2). This I'm quite certain of because  all the other digits are fine, and when I try doing a scale WITHOUT  no. 2 it is almost as even as a scale done by the left hand using those same fingers.

Now here's why I didn't notice anything before. I believe I had subconsciously built up the habit of curving the fingers, #2 included, so much so that the nails almost, if not actually reach the keys (I make sure my nails are trimmed, however). This neat trick somehow eliminated the possibility of no.2 unleashing its incompetence on its entire parent hand, wreaking havoc on what would otherwise be a crisp, quick, and clean descending scale run.

The left hand had not picked up this habit,  and there is nothing wrong with it.

I'm convinced that both hands' positions are just right.

Finally, it is noteworthy to re-mention my surgical operation on RH's index finger. The 2nd and 3rd segments are largely numb. Could this be the cause?

Thank you once more for your advice.

So probably you are subconsciously favoring that injured finger. I suggest exercises using that finger when away from the piano as well as at the piano. Try deliberately tapping out a 321 pattern randomly throughout the day. Away from the piano see if you can break that habit because really that is probably what this is stemming from. While the finger was healing you never wanted to bump it, twist it etc and probably set up this mental pattern that needs to be broken. Additional, try rolling up on that index finger, both away and at the piano. Make it work ! Put the index finger on a desktop for instance and use reasonable weight then push forward with your arm and hand rolling up to the point the fingernail is vertical. Do these for a week or so and see if some improvement comes your way.

[andreistegaru]

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