\"\"
Piano Forum logo

Advice on pushy adult student? (Read 8739 times)

Offline nyiregyhazi

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4267
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #50 on: May 04, 2014, 08:16:31 PM »
That is not true.

That is not my own shortcoming.



It's not a shortcoming of anyone's, as you've conclusively been proven to be in the wrong. You don't deserve to have your point of view seen, because your point of view is a mere delusion that you carry at the expense of the many parties you have wronged with your irresponsible allegations. It's an erroneous egotistical desire to change reality via personal will, not a valid opinion or point of view.

Offline goldentone

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1681
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #51 on: May 04, 2014, 08:18:48 PM »
If you had any proof that there was foul play, it would be fine to insist that you have been wronged. It wasn't even that bad to ask once if something like that could have happened. But now the decent thing would be to admit that you jumped into conclusions, because it is simply IMPOSSIBLE that you could be right. It's not healthy to believe something with a passion even though all objective evidence points otherwise.

There is somebody else who believes there is an issue.  So there evidently is no rational reason to believe something was not right with Keypeg's recording?  That's the consensus around here from what I've read.  Here are my observations:

1.  That Keypeg would select the same rare Tchaikovsky piece which Karli chose is very peculiar in itself.  The odds are against it.

2.  Keypeg sounds incredibly like Karli in the recording.  I can distinguish Karli's sound from everyone who has ever lived.

3.  Something is specious in the integrity of the recording itself, as it sounds like it was copied several times.  I've never heard a recording like that on Pianostreet before.  It goes beyond the quality of one's recording equipment.

4.  As I understand, Keypeg submitted hers after Karli's.

All of which leads me to believe that it is a forgery of Karli's.  So however improbable, this is the logical conclusion.  Anybody with an objective mind would agree it is strange.
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come

Offline nyiregyhazi

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4267
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #52 on: May 04, 2014, 09:14:09 PM »
There is somebody else who believes there is an issue.  So there evidently is no rational reason to believe something was not right with Keypeg's recording?  That's the consensus around here from what I've read.  Here are my observations:

1.  That Keypeg would select the same rare Tchaikovsky piece which Karli chose is very peculiar in itself.  The odds are against it.

2.  Keypeg sounds incredibly like Karli in the recording.  I can distinguish Karli's sound from everyone who has ever lived.

3.  Something is specious in the integrity of the recording itself, as it sounds like it was copied several times.  I've never heard a recording like that on Pianostreet before.  It goes beyond the quality of one's recording equipment.

4.  As I understand, Keypeg submitted hers after Karli's.

All of which leads me to believe that it is a forgery of Karli's.  So however improbable, this is the logical conclusion.  Anybody with an objective mind would agree it is strange.


No, keypegs was submitted first. And it was a set piece. If you want to support delusion then for God's sake check the facts before adding fuel to idiotic nonsense.

Offline keypeg

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3567
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #53 on: May 04, 2014, 09:59:39 PM »
1.  That Keypeg would select the same rare Tchaikovsky piece which Karli chose is very peculiar in itself.  The odds are against it.
AJSpiano selected this piece, and it was meant to be worked on by students and the project was meant to teach something.  We were to look at what we could draw out of the piece, how we might approach it and so on.  We discussed it among each other publicly and my ideas are in there - those same ideas are reflected in in my recording.
Quote
4.  As I understand, Keypeg submitted hers after Karli's.
I submitted mine mid-December.  Karli (Mayla)  submitted hers in January.  I had major problems with the quality of the recording because of the equipment.  Lostinidlewonder had offered to help with technical problems, so in December I had sent it to him to see if he could help.  He got rid of the hiss but then it sounded like it was underwater.  I sent it to another member who tried various filters to get rid of the hiss.  My teacher considered the hiss.  Finally my son, who knows something about sound, taught me about it - you take a "footprint" of the hiss and then have the software erase the footprint from the recording. This still leaves you with an odd sound quality but at least it was not such a big hiss.

I sent the version with the erased hiss to a friend, a violinist and teacher I have known for some 10 years, also in December.  It turns out that she is also a PianoStreet member.  So the number of people who heard my recording and/or tried to work with the hiss, all by mid-December are:
- Lostinidlewonder
- AJSpiano
- the fellow member who tried to help erase the hiss
- the violinist / violin teacher friend
- my teacher

They heard it some 2 - 3 weeks before Karli/Mayla even recorder her version.  She wrote in January that she had recorded it in January.

I was quite unhappy about the hiss, the distortion, and the recording equipment.  After that I did all I could to find a better way of recording, and got a cable going from the piano to the computer for a direct sound.  That was a result of that experience, but obviously I didn't have that equipment then.

Quote
2.  Keypeg sounds incredibly like Karli in the recording.  I can distinguish Karli's sound from everyone who has ever lived.
Apparently there are things that you cannot hear yet, which is ok because we are all learning, including myself.  I took a lot of ideas from Cubus here:


Karli and I are both female singers, and it is a lyrical piece.  As well, I am a violin student, so ditto.  If you listen carefully you will hear these differences:
- the middle notes of the LH are more controlled in her playing than mine, because she has the technical training while I am lacking in this area, still working intensely with my teacher on these weaknesses
- Her tempo is less decided, and the decisions in dynamics also become firm more in the 2nd half than the first.  In fact, when I began to work on the piece, my teacher found the pulse of mine two varied and "lyrical" and stressed that a steady beat was important for this piece even if adding rubato.  I worked long and hard on keeping that steady pulse.  I think that LiW's comments talk of both things.  It makes sense, since Mayla told us that she had dashed off her version on inspiration without polishing, while I had worked a lot, and with a teacher's input, to polish mine.

Offline Mayla

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6638
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #54 on: May 04, 2014, 10:41:16 PM »
.
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline nyiregyhazi

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4267
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #55 on: May 04, 2014, 10:52:11 PM »
Nope, nothing new or surprising here  :P

Nor anything about the fact that you are so arrogant and disconnected from reality to persist with your slander in the face of all reason. It's absolutely disgusting.

Your musical "voice"  is so weak that not even you can recognise it and nothing will stop you from being rude and disrespectful to everyone who you have accused of misdoings - as you'd have to admit this toyourself if you acknowledge reality. Ironically, you know deep down that this is the reality but would sooner question everyone else's integrity than admit it. You're fooling neither others nor yourself and I hope that deep down you feel as bad about this appalling facade as any moral person with an ounce of self respect would.

Offline keypeg

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3567
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #56 on: May 04, 2014, 10:53:03 PM »
Since I work remotely with my teacher, I have actual recordings tracing our work on the piece.  This may also be "on topic" since the process of working on music and studying with a teacher are involved.  I'm tired of this so here is the whole kit and kaboodle.

At the time I had an external microphone.  I used one of those "pencil shaped" ones; I borrowed my son's ball microphone for the final recording.  I have a digital piano, and can record directly into the piano, and then hit "playback" so that it will play back my playing into the microphone.  So these were recorded into the piano, and then the piano's recording was played into the microphone.

This first recording was sight reading prima vista, exploring the piece in the raw as far as I could, after which I got my teacher's feedback.   It's marked  November 12, 2012.
https://app.box.com/shared/static/oy6dcwaoztn63ikj90gs.mp3

My teacher's feedback was that it was feasible for me; there were some expressive things in the raw; the rubato was way way way too much.   :P The big thing for me to work on were i) to get a steady pulse, and then add any rubato and other touches in once I had that control  ii) find good movement of the arm/hand mechanism for technical control.  

I worked on these things.  The next recording is marked November 23, 2012.  I had worked on the first section, and was checking with my teacher whether I had done i) and ii) successfully before going on. (Basic control; proper pulse - cut out anything else for now.) The repeated notes was a technical trouble spot and I left it in so that he could hear this.
https://app.box.com/shared/static/5tcitbvefatn0s97is51.mp3
This was listened to - feedback given.  My next task was to get control for the rest, and then work out ideas for interpretation: phrasing, timing, dynamics; troubleshooting technical problems etc.  That gave me how to work.  That led to the next recording marked December 7, 2012.
https://app.box.com/shared/static/wzbey0a17pfq0do9tpoq.mp3

My teacher then gave feedback: what to keep, what to tweak.  I learned of the countermelody in the LH.  I then made my final version which got played into the piano's memory.  I was not able to be as subtle as would be ideal, because I did not have the physical control yet, and so we decided to keep it with what I could do without losing control.  That led to this recording into the ball microphone from the piano's internal recording.  It was marked December 12, 2012.  This is my final version, with the hiss still in.  I borrowed my son's ball microphone.
https://app.box.com/shared/static/e0ohflf384azbj6fc5jh.mp3

My son and I tried placing the microphone further back from the piano, and hit "play" for that same recording that was in the piano's memory.  The result was trebly and tinny.
https://app.box.com/shared/static/2t5jugwlqm1cojcrzv1t.mp3

I no longer have Lostinidlewonder's attempt to get rid of the hiss.  Another member tried three settings to get rid of the hiss which are called respectively 8db, 12db, 16db.  Also in December.
https://app.box.com/shared/static/mdsth5019k9gmvkd1yiu.mp3
https://app.box.com/shared/static/qznldqykgojocihf4sks.mp3
https://app.box.com/shared/static/jsbs8wwxl6p8g7ttlz2z.mp3

Finally my son did the "footprint" idea.  You take a footprint of ambient sound by highlight a section of "silence" where there is no playing, but ambient sound.  They you decide what percentage of that footprint you will have the program erase.  It will never sound natural, because some of the footprint also involves sounds in the actual notes.

That gave us the version that I submitted - again in December 2012.
https://app.box.com/shared/static/4jtqpvnjfio4xr533aa7.mp3

There is a history of developing the piece, working with my teacher, and more history in trying to get rid of the hiss.  Lostinidlewonder was asked to help with the hiss in December.  Mayla recorded hers in January.  The thing is that I worked long and hard on this.

Offline keypeg

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3567
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #57 on: May 04, 2014, 10:56:38 PM »
I am still trying to bring this back to the original topic.  If you follow the history, there is technique and approach through the guidance of a teacher, which is the part that the adult student in the original post seems to be resisting.  It's an important point that a piece needs to be developed, the student needs to get new skills, and it won't just come together "like that" because it's a process.

Offline outin

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8212
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #58 on: May 05, 2014, 04:52:42 AM »
Perhaps you could enlighten me on what value this is supposed to have for me?

I think the point is that usually at some point when people mature they start to understand that it's not always just about THEM or what THEY  have to gain.

Offline outin

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8212
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #59 on: May 05, 2014, 05:03:16 AM »
 Mayla recorded hers in January.  The thing is that I worked long and hard on this.

You really shouldn't have to keep exlaining your actions. But I think we can now conclude that if in fact someone has copied a recording, it had to be Mayla.

I know people sometimes do try to hide their own crimes by blaming others for imaginary ones. But I am not going to suggest anyone did, since I cannot see what there was to gain in this case...

Offline dire_tonic

  • PS Silver Member
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 85
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #60 on: May 05, 2014, 05:46:27 AM »
 - just for the record, I was in regular contact with keypeg when she was preparing the Tchai piece, less to comment on the performance but to advise on the recording quality and how it might be improved as a post-processing exercise on an existing recording.  That phase of communication significantly pre-dated the airing of participants' contributions so I knew that keypeg's submission was entirely her own since it was a cleaned-up version of the original.

I was perplexed but finally amused when all this erupted. Mayla's accusation was patently absurd but it reinforced a long-held suspicion about studying classical piano; it IS possible to reach an apparently high level of competence while lacking the ability to hear and/or while being quite unmusical.  

Offline keypeg

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3567
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #61 on: May 05, 2014, 05:19:31 PM »
Dire tonic, thank you again for your help at the time.  I also appreciate you writing in now.

Outin, I had a second reason for posting with those clips.  It dawned on me that it's actually a concrete record in sound of a piece on progress, and the development of a student while working with a teacher.  We always only hear the final thing, and seldom how it gets built and improved.  And possibly that brings us closer to the actual topic of this thread.

Offline lavender257

  • PS Silver Member
  • Newbie
  • ***
  • Posts: 2
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #62 on: May 07, 2014, 06:33:26 PM »
I sent the version with the erased hiss to a friend, a violinist and teacher I have known for some 10 years, also in December.  It turns out that she is also a PianoStreet member.  So the number of people who heard my recording and/or tried to work with the hiss, all by mid-December are:
- Lostinidlewonder
- AJSpiano
- the fellow member who tried to help erase the hiss
- the violinist / violin teacher friend
- my teacher

I am the violinist mentioned here, a good friend of Keypeg. I do have this recording of Keypeg which I got long before it appeared here. It was sent to me in December. I am ready to provide it via request of those who are working with such cases, but not here. It was hard worked and thoughtful own interpretation of Keypeg only.

Offline lavender257

  • PS Silver Member
  • Newbie
  • ***
  • Posts: 2
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #63 on: May 07, 2014, 06:40:58 PM »
Keypeg wrote, "I sent the version with the erased hiss to a friend, a violinist and teacher I have known for some 10 years, also in December.  It turns out that she is also a PianoStreet member.  So the number of people who heard my recording and/or tried to work with the hiss, all by mid-December are:
- Lostinidlewonder
- AJSpiano
- the fellow member who tried to help erase the hiss
- the violinist / violin teacher friend
- my teacher
"

I am the violinist mentioned here, a good friend of Keypeg. I do have this recording of Keypeg which I got long before it appeared here. It was sent to me in December. I am ready to provide it via request of those who are working with such cases, but not here. It was hard worked and thoughtful own interpretation of Keypeg only.
[/quote]

Offline awesom_o

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2634
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #64 on: May 08, 2014, 01:53:35 AM »
I just think it's absolutely bizarre that someone couldn't even recognize their own playing, or would confuse another person's playing with their own.

However, I went over to her website and listened to her, and I have to admit, her playing is very indistinctive. Ultimately, I couldn't decide which was more mediocre, her singing, or her playing.

Offline pts1

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 371
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #65 on: June 09, 2014, 06:35:50 PM »
Interesting how this re-discussion of the fraud Mayla tried to perpetrate has evolved.

She remains unrepentant, the victim rather than the attacker.

I was witness to the competition ugliness solely caused by Mayla, and there is no doubt she was 100% responsible for the petty and jealous grievances she caused by insisting it was HER recording that was copied.

No, Keypeg submitted her recording FIRST as it was logged in by AJ and everyone involved knows it.

Were it even possible to perform some type of fantastic theft of Mayla's performance clandestinely by tapping into her computer, stealing it, modifying it, and then posting it as one's own FIRST before she could post hers, this would take skills that someone in a high tech position in the NSA or FBI might have.

WHY would anyone wish to claim Mayla's mediocre, immature playing as their own, even if it were possible to do the above imagined theft?

But this is off topic speculation wondering about her sense of importance.

The provable fact remains: Keypeg did not copy and submit Mayla's recording and there is no conspiracy to denegrate Mayla.

She has and continues to bring this all upon herself.

 


Offline timothy42b

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3239
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #66 on: June 10, 2014, 12:08:38 PM »
Interesting how this re-discussion of the fraud Mayla tried to perpetrate has evolved.


I have never believed it was fraud.  Fraud would require intention to steal and knowledge that one had done so. 

I think Mayla honestly believed keypeg's version was hers, against overwhelming and really indisputable evidence. 

Sometimes you have to give up your own opinion and trust the crowd. 
Tim

Offline pts1

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 371
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #67 on: June 10, 2014, 06:39:37 PM »

Quote
I think Mayla honestly believed keypeg's version was hers, against overwhelming and really indisputable evidence.


Then Mayla is truly delusional or worse

Offline cometear

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 360
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #68 on: June 10, 2014, 10:53:05 PM »
Was this a competition on Piano Street?
Clementi, Piano Sonata in G Minor, No. 3, op. 10
W. A. Mozart, Sonata for Piano Four-Hands in F Major, K. 497
Beethoven, Piano Concerto, No. 2, op. 19

Offline keypeg

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3567
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #69 on: June 10, 2014, 11:38:01 PM »
Was this a competition on Piano Street?
One of the teachers made a teaching-type awareness creating project.  Students are often geared toward "fast and difficult".  He wanted us to look at a simpler piece, carefully, creatively, exploring.  It was a group activity where we shared our ideas, difficult spots, solutions, discoveries etc.  That was the main purpose.  "Competition" was put forth as a way to bring in participation, but we all took that side of it lightly.  Some of us even spoke against that side of it.

I was one of the students.  The idea of approach and analysis are very important to me, since I had discovered how powerful they were.  I had returned to piano after being self-taught as a child 35 years earlier, and had been working with a teacher for about a year.  I was (am) still in the middle of remediation from how I had played physically.  This was the first performance that I submitted to the forum ever.  I had hoped that if my playing was halfways decent, it might say something about this way of working on music.

Mayla did not take part in our discussions or ideas - since she is not a student, but a teacher and as I understand already performs, that was normal.  Then when the deadline for this "competition" came around, she submitted a performance of the piece, among us students.  I'd say it was and was not a competition.  The main purpose was group learning and exploration, and the "competition" was a way to bring in participation and spice things up a bit.


Offline cometear

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 360
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #70 on: June 10, 2014, 11:48:01 PM »
One of the teachers made a teaching-type awareness creating project.  Students are often geared toward "fast and difficult".  He wanted us to look at a simpler piece, carefully, creatively, exploring.  It was a group activity where we shared our ideas, difficult spots, solutions, discoveries etc.  That was the main purpose.  "Competition" was put forth as a way to bring in participation, but we all took that side of it lightly.  Some of us even spoke against that side of it.

I was one of the students.  The idea of approach and analysis are very important to me, since I had discovered how powerful they were.  I had returned to piano after being self-taught as a child 35 years earlier, and had been working with a teacher for about a year.  I was (am) still in the middle of remediation from how I had played physically.  This was the first performance that I submitted to the forum ever.  I had hoped that if my playing was halfways decent, it might say something about this way of working on music.

Mayla did not take part in our discussions or ideas - since she is not a student, but a teacher and as I understand already performs, that was normal.  Then when the deadline for this "competition" came around, she submitted a performance of the piece, among us students.  I'd say it was and was not a competition.  The main purpose was group learning and exploration, and the "competition" was a way to bring in participation and spice things up a bit.



Thanks :P
Clementi, Piano Sonata in G Minor, No. 3, op. 10
W. A. Mozart, Sonata for Piano Four-Hands in F Major, K. 497
Beethoven, Piano Concerto, No. 2, op. 19

Offline Karli

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1627
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #71 on: July 04, 2018, 05:33:08 PM »
The opportunity to learn that not everything in the world has to be tailor made to serve you. And the chance to learn humility and ability to accept reality. Also to learn that feelings do not trump reality, regardless of how much arrogant faith you place in yours.

Stop speaking in hypothetical terms. There are specific facts here.

I get it 😁

Offline lostinidlewonder

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6067
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #72 on: July 05, 2018, 03:28:22 PM »
I get it 😁
An award for necroposting?  :D
"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all."
www.facebook.com/groups/348933611793249/

Offline timothy42b

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3239
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #73 on: July 05, 2018, 05:42:17 PM »
Four years isn't that long.  Lots of times you just need a little break. 
Tim

Offline keypeg

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3567
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #74 on: July 05, 2018, 07:02:28 PM »
Four years isn't that long.  Lots of times you just need a little break. 
Quite true.  But is the OP still around, so that we can know what happened with that situation?  And are there any new insights on that particular issue?
MUSICFAIRY, if you're still around - what happened with that situation?

Offline timothy42b

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3239
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #75 on: July 05, 2018, 07:37:32 PM »
Quite true.  But is the OP still around, so that we can know what happened with that situation?  And are there any new insights on that particular issue?
MUSICFAIRY, if you're still around - what happened with that situation?

Yes.  When you've asked for assistance, and people give generously of their time, it would be courteous to eventually reply and give us some feedback.

I note the OP posted a few times in April of 2014, again in November of 2015, then disappeared. 
Tim

Offline keypeg

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3567
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #76 on: July 05, 2018, 07:38:42 PM »
Yes.  When you've asked for assistance, and people give generously of their time, it would be courteous to eventually reply and give us some feedback.

I note the OP posted a few times in April of 2014, again in November of 2015, then disappeared. 
The topic could be of general interest, which is why I mentioned that part.

Offline stevensk

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 641
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #77 on: July 05, 2018, 08:18:16 PM »
-I have experienced that as a teacher. Everything must be "fun" today, no effort or hard work.
That kind of pupils ends quickly and discover that they actually are great writers or poets

Offline bernadette60614

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 525
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #78 on: July 08, 2018, 02:01:18 AM »
As an adult student, I'd like to add this:

One spends decades as an adult developing competency.  Becoming a student, again, means being incompetent.

Doesn't mean stupid, doesn't mean hopeless...just incompetent.  Because to learn is not to know, and to not know is to be incompetent.

A big challenge for me as an adult was to invite criticism.  As a professional, criticism meant a poor performance review, a lost client relationship. As a student, criticism is an opportunity for learning.

I would suggest that the OP validate any signs of competency.  It took me 7 years of lessons to realize that if I knew so much (I didn't...I just needed to protect my ego), that I would have to embrace and invite criticism.

Offline Bob

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16050
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #79 on: July 11, 2018, 10:57:20 PM »
Quite true.  But is the OP still around, so that we can know what happened with that situation?  And are there any new insights on that particular issue?
MUSICFAIRY, if you're still around - what happened with that situation?

Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline keypeg

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3567
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #80 on: July 12, 2018, 02:15:41 AM »
Except when the point was to bring it on track from where it seemed to be heading, Bob.

Offline lostinidlewonder

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6067
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #81 on: July 12, 2018, 03:28:37 AM »
Four years isn't that long.  Lots of times you just need a little break. 
So what constitutes a necropost then? 100 years? lol
"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all."
www.facebook.com/groups/348933611793249/

Offline Bob

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16050
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #82 on: July 14, 2018, 08:22:16 PM »
Weren't people saying nyiregyhazi and Karli/Mayla were all the same person?  So this would be Karli replying to herself as nyiregyhazi?

Which probably also means Karli/Mayla/nyiregyhazi/othernames is/was/always was still around, just using different names.
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline keypeg

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3567
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #83 on: July 14, 2018, 09:20:32 PM »
Weren't people saying nyiregyhazi and Karli/Mayla were all the same person? 
That makes no sense for a lot of reasons.  Anyway, let's stick to the topic. Don't help in the attempted diversion.  The topic itself has probably run out, given that the person who asked for help (4 years ago) never came back.

Offline outin

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8212
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #84 on: July 15, 2018, 05:10:37 AM »
Weren't people saying nyiregyhazi and Karli/Mayla were all the same person?  So this would be Karli replying to herself as nyiregyhazi?

Which probably also means Karli/Mayla/nyiregyhazi/othernames is/was/always was still around, just using different names.

No, they were both actual persons... It was some Aussie that was having a split personality issue, at least if we believe R4...

Offline timothy42b

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3239
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #85 on: July 16, 2018, 03:34:56 PM »
Weren't people saying nyiregyhazi and Karli/Mayla were all the same person? 

No, no way.  Karli and Mayla, yes.  But nyi?  totally different personality.  I always assumed he got banned for argumentativeness.  If he's a he of course, that's another assumption. 
Tim

Offline keypeg

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3567
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #86 on: July 16, 2018, 03:55:56 PM »
I never responded to the question when the OP first asked it.  Just thinking about it now: An experienced teacher (the OP was rather new) might have known how to handle it - this is tricky.

Choosing a book that teaches the "simple chord + melody" type approach, on the premise that this is the easy fun music an amateur can handle, was probably the wrong call, given the kind of music he showed he liked to play.  That's not the kind of music he likes or is after.  But the fact is that he is missing a host of underlying skills.  Getting him to aim for that, and work on it (and how he should work on it) is the challenge ... which I can't answer either.

The music he was already playing does have structure that he's not aware of - broken chords, for example.  He could read treble clef but not bass clef.  Does that necessarily mean giving him pieces of music written in the bass clef, or some other means of getting to read the bass clef?  And how do you organize having him practice this?  Can he be working toward goals such as "by next week I can read the notes on the lower three lines of the bass clef" which can be rewarding, rather than, "by next week I can play this simple music which I hate so it never will be rewarding"?

The horses have left the barn a long time ago, but I am curious about this question all the same.

Offline dogperson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1374
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #87 on: July 16, 2018, 09:25:49 PM »
I never responded to the question when the OP first asked it.  Just thinking about it now: An experienced teacher (the OP was rather new) might have known how to handle it - this is tricky.


I am reading two replies made by you: April 17 and May 4

Offline keypeg

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3567
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #88 on: July 16, 2018, 10:53:39 PM »

I am reading two replies made by you: April 17 and May 4
What I wrote is "I never responded to the question when the OP first asked it."
When I replied originally, it was not abut the OP's question ; i.e. the actual topic.

I'd actually be more interested in any thoughts on the matter - should there be.

Offline themeandvariation

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 756
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #89 on: July 17, 2018, 12:25:56 AM »
It seems to me that the real meat of this thread had to do with Karli -and that whole imbroglio.
Have you no response to her mea culpa, Keypeg? 

The subject of pushy student really is not so complex a deal for a teacher.. We work w them, if we can.. The student insists in leading the way, it could make for a bumpy ride For the student.  SO it goes. I let them know that... and then 'carry-on'..


4'33"

Offline keypeg

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3567
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #90 on: July 17, 2018, 01:46:17 AM »
The subject of pushy student really is not so complex a deal for a teacher.. We work w them, if we can.. The student insists in leading the way, it could make for a bumpy ride For the student.  SO it goes. I let them know that... and then 'carry-on'..
The subject of an adult student who started off on their own, want to have lessons, don't know what that involves is not simple at all.  That is a subject that interests me, which is why I posted about it.

Offline themeandvariation

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 756
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #91 on: July 17, 2018, 03:21:16 AM »

.....
Today, he came to the lesson and told me that is was too easy for him. This is despite him still having trouble with bass notes. He insisted that we do the Bach prelude even when I tried to explain to him that he still couldn't read many of the bass notes on the music. I showed him the music and he was surprised at how complex it looked but insisted on starting it because "it has all white notes so it must be easy". I tried to reason politely but he was stubborn about wanting to learn "fun" music and ultimately, I gave in to his insistence. We did none of the easy duets I had planned, and he struggled with learning the A,B and middle C notes on the bass cleft.....


I was left feeling that the entire lesson was a waste of my time. Any advice is appreciated.



My response is directed at the salient feature in the OP's post:  The student was 'Pushy'.. That is the part you missed, Keypeg, in your last comment.  My answer to that question is a simple one, which I
stated in the last comment.  That comment was meant for other teachers, I guess... being that you seemed to miss the point.. Are you a pushy student?
4'33"

Offline brogers70

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1129
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #92 on: July 17, 2018, 10:38:45 AM »
I'm a pushy adult student, and that is often frustrating to my teacher. I started piano at 40, worked alone for 12 years and made some good progress; I could pretty much get through a few Schubert Impromptus, Bach P&Fs, some of the easier Mozart and Haydn Sonatas. But I had messed up technique. I found an excellent teacher - she's been great about fixing all the tension and inefficiency in my technique, but we sometimes bang heads. She wishes I would just stop thinking so much and just do what she tells me; she's been doing this for years and she's the expert. That's true enough, but I'm the expert on how I learn things. I look at what I'm having trouble with, try to find the most fundamental problem, and then find a way to focus on that problem, then move on to the next and the next. She likes to skip around a bit more and trust that things will improve gradually on many fronts.

For all that she's a great teacher, I still think I'm right. I've had two great leaps forward, and they both came from my looking at where I was, what the main problem was, and what a solution might be. In the first case, after a year of lessons in which she was working on reducing tension and freeing up arm movements, I decided it was not working and asked to start right from ground zero, with arm drops, two note slurs and slow scales. Doing that for a few months got me unblocked and made a huge difference. Then last year I decided that a critical problem for me was lack of comfort and fluency. My teacher's suggestion was just to give up caring about mistakes and aim for a musical idea and trust that the technique would follow. That might have worked for her, but I was sure it would not work for me (having tried something like that already). So I told her I wanted to spend a year playing ultra simple things focusing only on fluency and musical expression; I'd use pieces that were so simple that there was nothing to the notes themselves. After a year of that, I felt completely different at the piano; less stage fright, more happiness, more ease. And then I went back to more advanced music and found that the comfort was still there.

On the day to day things like how to move to play some specific passage or just reminding me of something I should already know technically, or asking about how I think of a piece, my teacher is great. But on the bigger, strategic things I wish that she would trust that I understand how I learn, and would look at my analytic, reductionist approach as a positive thing she could work with, rather than as a distraction from just doing what she says (or worse, as a sign that I don't think highly enough of her pianistic skills).

I'd say don't look at "pushiness" as a problem. Of course it may sometimes just be ignorant stubbornness, but it may be a sign that your student is taking a more active role in learning than just sitting at the master's feet. People all learn differently, and a committed adult may know a lot about how they themselves learn most efficiently. So don't send them away, and don't just shrug and say "up to you," try to figure out a way to collaborate with them.

Offline keypeg

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3567
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #93 on: July 17, 2018, 03:16:25 PM »

My response is directed at the salient feature in the OP's post:  The student was 'Pushy'.. That is the part you missed, Keypeg, in your last comment.  My answer to that question is a simple one, which I
stated in the last comment.  That comment was meant for other teachers, I guess... being that you seemed to miss the point.. Are you a pushy student?
First I should make clear that I am also a trained teacher with a B.Ed. and postgraduate studies in education after that degree.  Besides working in the classroom, i later worked one-on-one with students, and especially in a problem-solving capacity. After becoming a music student, I started to learn piano pedagogy with my present teacher over a few years, and we have explored quite a few issues and approaches.  So that is where I'm coming from.

"Pushy" is an interpretation, and a subjective feeling.  One early advice I was given while a novice teacher was, "Never say Suzie is lazy.  Describe factually what Suzie did." ("lazy", "pushy" are inaccurate).  This leads to clearly identifying causes, solutions, approaches - occasionally (in a school setting) bringing in experts.  I later got a 12 year old student who was in special ed and reading at a grade 1 level, to read at a grade 8 level within a few months, because there was a simple underlying cause that everyone had missed.

------------------
So I read the description of what you quoted.  Granted, it is a mess, and the student has entirely the wrong idea.  I could see other ways of handling it: the idea of Bastien and a chords + melody idea probably went in the wrong direction. I could see ways of turning this around.  And it is not at all a simple thing.

Offline keypeg

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3567
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #94 on: July 17, 2018, 03:42:35 PM »
Answering:

Are you a pushy student?
The first time I ever had lessons, I was in my late forties, learning a brand new instrument (violin) and I was in awe with the process, excited about getting real teaching.  I had self-taught instruments my whole life, and this creates hiccups.  For example, you may seem to be able to read music for the instrument when you can simply anticipate how it goes and use your ear and instinct.  How I understood it later is that my teacher knew of the common adult amateur attitude of wanting to move fast, get right at the music, not have much in the way of technique or theory.  It seems he taught toward that.  I didn't know.

I was NOT PUSHY.  I did everything I was told, in the way I was told.  When I graduated from grade to grade to grade in a single year I got uneasy.  I felt something was missing.  And yet I had passed my first exam after a few months with a high grade.  I am capable of hearing the desired sound in my head and forcing out that sound - without solid consistent technical training and enough time to consolidate skills, this was a recipe for disaster.  The whole thing collapsed after a year.  The rest of the journey is too convoluted to relate.  I stuck with it for another 3 years.  At the end, when I was pushy, where goals, attitudes and approaches were defined, the whole thing turned around.  In fact, what I wanted is what my teacher would have wanted to teach.  But by that time my playing foundation had gone to pot, and for other reasons I had to stop lessons. 
Since then I have studied piano with a very good (rare) teacher.

My experience was the polar opposite of the OP's story.  But there is a common point:  There are "core things" to playing an instrument.  They are like foundations: technique, "theory", approach.  This is what I was seeking, but could not name them.  This is what the OP's student is oblivious of.  If a teaching approach is nothing more than having some method book do the "teaching", then the point can still be missed.  Thus that student saw "boring music" --- he saw the music, not the approach.  How to actually PERCEIVE what reading really is - especially when someone has a pre-existing relationship to music - that in itself needs to be broken through.  That is a thing which my own teacher is very strong on.

Am I pushy now?
I am pushy in the sense that my goal in studying music with anyone is that I want to get the underlying skills.  If a teacher has those same goals, and also knows how to teach it, then I will follow what I'm told, and do it in the manner that I'm told.  But I've been burned more than once.  So I am cautious.  I have learned with more than one teacher since then - one main teacher, and some less frequent teachers that he knows of and approves of.  They have proved trustworthy.  I have also been told to trust my own instinct; to ask questions; to tell if something is not working.  Within that framework I am not pushy.

The big gap in the OP's student is that he literally doesn't know what it's about; what the actual goals should be or what goals look like.  Until such preconceptions are altered, nothing good can happen.  Many students are too stubborn (or scared) to open the door to such possibilities.  Then it's an impossible thing, and the conclusions are like the ones you stated.

Offline themeandvariation

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 756
Re: Advice on pushy adult student?
«Reply #95 on: July 17, 2018, 04:15:25 PM »

Am I pushy now?
I am pushy in the sense that my goal in studying music with anyone is that I want to get the underlying skills.  If a teacher has those same goals, and also knows how to teach it, then I will follow what I'm told, and do it in the manner that I'm told.  But I've been burned more than once.  So I am cautious.  I have learned with more than one teacher since then - one main teacher, and some less frequent teachers that he knows of and approves of.  They have proved trustworthy.  I have also been told to trust my own instinct; to ask questions; to tell if something is not working.  Within that framework I am not pushy.



I think your frame of mind in this regard - is a good approach.

I am always interested in the stated goals of the student. It is the first question I ask,  and will ask again periodically, as sometimes goals shift somewhat.. Some want to play classical, some Rock, jazz standards, some want to accompany themselves singing, some want to learn improvisation, theory, ear training, some want to learn to write their musical ideas down, etc, etc.. (funny enough, not many say that they will work to become a better sight reader :)
The ergonomics of playing is a given with all these approaches..
 
Most will have a combination those things I mentioned, in varying degrees.  Every student is different. I then try to map a path that smoothly and comprehensively gets them there efficiently.  
If they don't have an idea or unclear of what there interested in, I'll make suggestions, and then over time, they may have a clearer idea.. and we take it from there.
4'33"