How to sit at the piano

[skryabyn]

What would you say are the typical pros/cons of sitting low vs high, and far vs close to the piano?

[iansinclair]

Where are you comfortable and your hands and arms can more freely over the keyboard!  The limits are rather broad -- you don't want to be so close that your upper arms are behind the vertical, but not so far way that you can't reach the limits of the keyboard without bending too much at the waist.  You don't want to sit so high that your lower arms really drop to reach the keyboard, nor too low (although Glenn Gould, for one, sat so low that his nose seemed about on the level of the keys...).

Mostly -- where when your hands are anywhere in the central two octaves you are free and relaxed.  Lots of room for variation.

[faulty_damper]

It's not about pros or cons, it's about limits within the range.  There is a range of optimal movements that can only be achieved within a specific seat height.  Sit too low or high and the optimal movements are diminished. Some movements gradually diminish, others abruptly diminish.  Finding the maximum range of optimal movements at a specific seat height makes everything easier to do.

[indianajo]

This belongs in the student area of the forum. 
A factory ergonomics book would say that maintaining a straight wrist, with the plane of the forearm,  keeps the tendons from rubbing in the wrong places in repetitive motion.  
My piano teacher taught me to sit high enough that the arms drooped slightly from the elbow, the wrists were straight in the vertical plane, and the fingers curved down naturally.  i see on video that many professional pianists don't do it that way, but having had some ergo training at the factory, I don't see anything wrong with that posture.  I'm playing piano into my mid sixties, so it has worked well for me.  

[cometear]

(although Glenn Gould, for one, sat so low that his nose seemed about on the level of the keys...).

Which is probably what caused his severe injury...

[future_maestro]

Post has been deleted.
Author warned.

[nyiregyhazi]

Legs should be close together, positited under or on the pedals, right foot under (or on) the right pedal and the left under (or on) the left pedal.
The middle of you chest should generally be lined up with middle C.
Shoulders relaxed, back straight, posture actually has an effect on the sound.
Elbows should NOT be pressed against your sides, in fact they should be slightly tilted out.

Everyone has different builds and preferences, but this should apply to most people.

Um, is English not your first language? Did you seriously mean the feet should go "under" the pedals when not using them or is there some mistake here?

[skryabyn]

I know the basics... just curious if anyone knows why. Kind of the next step beyond comfort, and elbow positioning. For example Charles Rosen seemed convinced that sitting high gave you more power, and sitting low more fine control. Just curious if close/far from the keys is generally considered to have similar effects, if anyone's ever thought about this or there's a general consensus out there. I think there ARE pros and cons to sitting slightly higher or lower, it seems crazy that it wouldn't effect your playing beyond whatever feels comfortable.

[faulty_damper]

I do not think in such terms any more.  I think in terms of maximizing range of motion and muscular easiness.  It's only then that control can be had.  Comfort is incidental and is the result of maximum range of motion and ease.

[future_maestro]

 Post has been deleted.

[nyiregyhazi]

Ok, obviously you haven't seen a piano before, so I'll just tell you that their isn't enough room under the pedals for you WHOLE foot to go under, but  the tips of your shoes should be under the pedals if your doing things that don't require them, like technical exercises.  When you need them, then your feet should be on them or positioned so that you can reach them.

Please, do not make me waist my time like this.

That's one of the silliest things I ever heard. Who on earth told you that your foot "should" be in such a silly place? Would you like to cite a single pianist who keeps his foot under the soft pedal when not using it? What possible benefit is there from shoving your toes under the pedal (meaning that you have to retract the foot and then push it back in again in order to operate the pedal)? Anyone who gets even slightly used to such an inappropriate position in any form of practise is only going to have to eradicate that habit outright in order to function in any normal music. If the foot is not on the pedal, it should be positioned where it can get there via a single direct movement when desired- ie anywhere other than trapped underneath.

[future_maestro]

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[nyiregyhazi]

Ok, obviously you haven't seen a piano before, so I'll just tell you that their isn't enough room under the pedals for you WHOLE foot to go under, but  the tips of your shoes should be under the pedals if your doing things that don't require them, like technical exercises.  When you need them, then your feet should be on them or positioned so that you can reach them.

Please, do not make me waist my time like this.

If you didn't actually mean under as in the actual meaning, what was that abouthe foot not fitting? I've never had a problem getting my whole foot beside or short of the pedal. Anyway, I'm glad you chose to change your mind, even if you do wish to pretend that was what you meant all along.

Have you got your enter key set on autofire?

[future_maestro]

Post has been deleted.

[outin]

I'm not arguing with you, either you understand what I meant or you didn't.

Remember that there are many beginners here with no teachers. Some of them may actually try to do what you proposed, no matter how irrational it seems to you. There are so many things in piano playing that defy a beginners logic, one can get quite confused 

And sorry about the enter key, I think my browser is a little crappy.

Maybe you should try to modify your posts, it's really annoying...

[nyiregyhazi]

I'm not arguing with you, either you understand what I meant or you didn't.

And sorry about the enter key, I think my browser is a little crappy.

When you state that there's obviously no room for the whole foot but only for the toes to fit, it's clear that under meant under. If you are claiming to have been referring to a lack of room for the whole foot anywhere else, I can only suggest that you tidy your room. There's really not much in the way of fitting a whole foot on the floor unless you either have beer cans and kebab wrappers strewn everywhere or are trying to force your foot under a pedal.

[kriatina]

I first started playing whilst sitting on a "lower" chair,
where everything was exactly how it should have been positioned...
... everything was alright, except that my tonality was appearing to be a "little heavy"...
... and I thought that my control over the tonality left lots to be desired...

... Then I started to sit on a "higher up" chair
and I feel now that it opens up better opportunities,
and a much greater control to achieve a better tonality
... and my hands do not feel "so heavy" anymore and I can play much longer...

I do feel more at home sitting on the piano chair which is a little higher...
...and I can sit much better as well... with a better posture...
 
 ...Question is: is it likely that a higher chair harms my back and my posture in the long run ?

[faulty_damper]

I do feel more at home sitting on the piano chair which is a little higher...
...and I can sit much better as well... with a better posture...
 
 ...Question is: is it likely that a higher chair harms my back and my posture in the long run ?

Unlikely.  Sitting higher increases range of motion and allows the shoulders to be in front of the torso. In contrast, sitting lower places the shoulders at the side which decreases range of motion.  As well, there is significantly less mechanical leverage sitting low and would require muscular force to depress the keys if playing loud, for example.  This is why Liszt learned to sit high.

The biggest problem is the concept of "good" posture. People think "good" posture means sitting perfectly vertically with the shoulders at the side, like this:




In actuality, the position of the body that allows greatest freedom of movement is this:

[kriatina]

Thank you very much for your kind explanation faulty_damper,
it is very much appreciated.

Kind regards from Kristina.

[outin]

Sitting higher increases range of motion and allows the shoulders to be in front of the torso. In contrast, sitting lower places the shoulders at the side which decreases range of motion.  As well, there is significantly less mechanical leverage sitting low and would require muscular force to depress the keys if playing loud, for example.  This is why Liszt learned to sit high.

I don't think it's that simple. I have learned that the best freedom and control I get when I sit rather low but further away than people usually do. That's when my wrists feel free and shoulders are most relaxed. Sitting higher requires me to sit closer and my arms feel cramped. People have different body types, so you just cannot generalize what the best sitting height is.

[faulty_damper]

I don't think it's that simple. I have learned that the best freedom and control I get when I sit rather low but further away than people usually do. That's when my wrists feel free and shoulders are most relaxed. Sitting higher requires me to sit closer and my arms feel cramped. People have different body types, so you just cannot generalize what the best sitting height is.

Let me guess, you're lower spine is straight, like this:

[/youtube]

[outin]

Let me guess, you're lower spine is straight, like this:

Nope, in fact my lower spine is nothing but straight

I do have to lean forward a bit always, otherwise I will end up with back pain in just a few minutes.

[faulty_damper]

Nope, in fact my lower spine is nothing but straight

I do have to lean forward a bit always, otherwise I will end up with back pain in just a few minutes.

You mean like this?

[outin]

You mean like this?

Not quite
I sit much further away (and not THAT low)  so that my arms are not cramped like that.

[richard black]

I can only speak from experience - a few years ago I changed from sitting a little on the high side of average to sitting well below average height, lower in fact than standard piano stools will go. I find this more comfortable for long playing sessions, and as an opera repetiteur specialising in Wagner (up to 2 and a half hours unbroken stretches of music) that's an issue. I can sit at a piano for ten hours a day, for any number of days in succession, with no discomfort in any part of my body except my bum and my right foot.

As for left foot, when the going gets difficult I put it about 40cm to the left of the lyre, thus creating a fairly broad triangle of supports - bum/right foot/left foot. This goes back to something i was told (by a violinist, actually) when I was a teenager, that you need to be stable. Kinda obvious, of course, but easy to forget.

[faulty_damper]

Oh, and to clarify the seating position I stated earlier, I assumed certain kinds of repertoire that involved loud/heavy chords and passages.  If the repertoire is Bach or Mozart, then that position wouldn't be as effective for the repertoire.

[pianopro181]

Oh, and to clarify the seating position I stated earlier, I assumed certain kinds of repertoire that involved loud/heavy chords and passages.  If the repertoire is Bach or Mozart, then that position wouldn't be as effective for the repertoire.

I think an issue with sitting too high up is to do with there being less room for an upwards motion and subsequently a natural downwards motion due to limited weight transference as a result of dangling and this results in an over-usage of arm muscles in for example larger chordal passages in Rach as a means to compensate for lack of natural upwards then downwards motion (which is also a fundamental movement within rotation) and can ultimately lead then to negative tension.

I would say the issue with sitting too low is the lack of ability to pull up due to excessive downwards motion into the keys which can also cause tension.

So they’re kind of two opposite problems but both absolutely needed at the same time.

I think what it boils down to is finding one’s natural position where both those aspects are equally measured (which largely depends on height and length of arms, etc) and then adjusting accordingly if need be depending on what comes more naturally to them (dropping slightly more down or lifting slightly more up); both of which are required to play the piano competently.

I think it’s also good to observe the highly skilled pianists competing in competitions like the Chopin or Tchaikovsky who are at the top of their game because it’s a clear representation of what actually works at that sort of level and it appears that most of the  participants over the years tend to sit either in a neutral position or at the lower ends of things and indeed some slightly higher. Occasionally you’ll see someone sitting unusually high up but they tend to be already rather short (like 5’5 and below) or have an unusual arm span or something which is then understandable because it measures out. For someone of let’s say 5’8 - 6 foot + (above average height), sitting that high up would be as absurd as someone sitting as low down as Glen Gould did which may explain why it’s rarely ever seen and would certainly limit us in similar sorts of ways.

I do agree (especially at the lower levels) that starting from a ‘forearms parallel to the floor’ principle is the correct method physiologically speaking and then to then adjust accordingly if need be but without going to extremes in one direction or the other.