Chopin Ballade op.23 no.1 help :/

[ajlongspiano]

Hey guys, for the past couple months I've been working on the first Chopin Ballade. Currently I'm on page 10 (I use the Paderewski edition) and I'm at the second theme of the Eb major theme and I'm getting very frustrated at the triplet part of that section (measure 180 and onwards). The first note of the triplet seems to come a fraction of a beat after the Eb in the bass of that section and I can't seem to line my hands up correctly. I know I'll get it eventually but this is killing me. I've also tried counting out loud but am not having much luck so far. Any tips will be greatly appreciated!

[lazyfingers]

I presume that playing this piece would mean you are pretty advanced.

If not counting which is difficult for polyrhythms at speed, then perhaps try the french rhythmic method? As I recall being taught this years ago and from memory the rhythm for 3 over 2 is "Ta Ta te Ta", with the "Ta" on the 3rds and the "te" the bottom (2nd) quaver in the group.

So, in a full 3 over 2 where you have 3's on the RH, then the first Ta is played with both hands, the second Ta is 2nd RH 3rd, the te is the 2nd LH, and the last Ta is the 3rd RH note.

When I play this passage, I basically listen for the first quaver on the LH (since the RH is a rest), and then the RH comes in.

You need to say the "Ta Ta te Ta" aloud of course to begin with. I think it works sometimes because if you get the rhythm sounding right, all you need to do is to match it, rather than to think about numbers.

Best of luck

[ajlongspiano]

I presume that playing this piece would mean you are pretty advanced.

If not counting which is difficult for polyrhythms at speed, then perhaps try the french rhythmic method? As I recall being taught this years ago and from memory the rhythm for 3 over 2 is "Ta Ta te Ta", with the "Ta" on the 3rds and the "te" the bottom (2nd) quaver in the group.

So, in a full 3 over 2 where you have 3's on the RH, then the first Ta is played with both hands, the second Ta is 2nd RH 3rd, the te is the 2nd LH, and the last Ta is the 3rd RH note.

When I play this passage, I basically listen for the first quaver on the LH (since the RH is a rest), and then the RH comes in.

You need to say the "Ta Ta te Ta" aloud of course to begin with. I think it works sometimes because if you get the rhythm sounding right, all you need to do is to match it, rather than to think about numbers.

Best of luck

Thank you. I will try that!

[erick86]

I find it easiest to "voice" the eighth rest in the right hand which proceeds the G (in measure 180).  That way it's just two sets of triplets.

count out in triplets: Tri-ple-let Tri-ple-let Tri-ple-let!!!

right hand:   Tri  ple  let - Tri  ple  let - Tri   la     la -  Lah dee dah -|  Dah-------
Left hand:    Eb     Bb    -  Eb     G     -  Eb      Bb    -  Eb      Bb      - |  Eb


And when you play it, voice that rest.  Give it a Bah! and play out the rest of the triplet evenly.  

Eric

[ajlongspiano]

Thank you very much. Recently I got it!

[nyiregyhazi]

I presume that playing this piece would mean you are pretty advanced.

If not counting which is difficult for polyrhythms at speed, then perhaps try the french rhythmic method? As I recall being taught this years ago and from memory the rhythm for 3 over 2 is "Ta Ta te Ta", with the "Ta" on the 3rds and the "te" the bottom (2nd) quaver in the group.

So, in a full 3 over 2 where you have 3's on the RH, then the first Ta is played with both hands, the second Ta is 2nd RH 3rd, the te is the 2nd LH, and the last Ta is the 3rd RH note.

When I play this passage, I basically listen for the first quaver on the LH (since the RH is a rest), and then the RH comes in.

You need to say the "Ta Ta te Ta" aloud of course to begin with. I think it works sometimes because if you get the rhythm sounding right, all you need to do is to match it, rather than to think about numbers.

Best of luck

The problem with this approach is that it's very notey rather than flowing. It's definitely worth going through this, but it's essential to learn two independent flows in the end and move on from this starting point. Ultimately the notes need to breeze by on their own merits and only be linked into the arrivals together. There should be very little need to think about the hands in association to each other except on the moments where they land together, in the final execution, or its going to sound punched out.

[lazyfingers]

The problem with this approach is that it's very notey rather than flowing. It's definitely worth going through this, but it's essential to learn two independent flows in the end and move on from this starting point. Ultimately the notes need to breeze by on their own merits and only be linked into the arrivals together. There should be very little need to think about the hands in association to each other except on the moments where they land together, in the final execution, or its going to sound punched out.

The suggestion was meant as an alternative to counting which the OP asked for. This method (and all counting methods) are meant for learning only.

BTW my description with the hands was only for explanation purposes to connect the rhythm to the 3/2 polyrhythms. As you pointed out, the rhythm is all that is required and not thinking about the hands (unless one is learning 3/2 polyrhythms for the first time).

Also, my memory was faulty. The Ta titi system is actually the Kodaly method, and hence Hungarian and not French. I think it is used to teach very young children, but could be useful in other context as well.