Beethoven op. 2 no. 1 help please

[pover]

Hey guys. I've started learning beethoven's op.2 no.1, and since i'm self-taught, I thought I'd come here to ask a few questions. So if you have time and/or dabbled with this sonata, i'd be grateful for any help

Movement 1:
-in the development section, m.69-71, I'm having trouble playing the RH crotchets. for m.69, i use 1 and 2 for the F and Dnatural. and I play the B natural with 4, and then C natural with 5. then continue the tremolo with 1 and 2. I'm having trouble playing this at speed, and especially bringing out the two crotchets, since at that point my hand is stretched almost completely.

-in m. 71 it's even harder, since I have to transition between A natural and Bb, so i have to use 4 and 5 to maintain the slur. This is EXTREMELY awkward for me to play, especially at speed. Again, having trouble bringing out the 2 crotchets.

Apart from this movement 1 is pretty straight-forward. Fun to play. Gonna take a while to really ingrain the fine details.

Movement 3:

-Just a question about the trio section, where the RH plays double fourths. does anyone know a good fingering, and is it supposed to be ALL connected? I've managed to use a fingering but it certainly isn't ordinary, by any means.

Finally, Movement 4:

-Finding real trouble with the lightning speed arpeggios. Especially keeping them quiet and even (both in duration and dynamics). Any tips for this? Should i practice small sections fast, or at a comfortable speed and increase the speed gradually?

-Any tips on voicing the first note of each triplet (eg. m22-28 etc)? I'm practicing several things, such as playing the upper note and "ghosting/miming" the other 2. Or things like playing the upper notes legato+forte and other notes staccato+piano. Just wondering if you had any better suggestions.

-The 3 against 2 poly rhythms look like they're going to be really tough to pull off at the incredibly fast tempo. Any suggestions here? I can play them at a comfortable tempo, but they seem impossible to do accurately at prestissimo.

-Any practice suggestions on how to play the LH REALLY soft? I can play it pianissimo at a comfortable tempo, but again, when i play really fast the dynamic range diminishes substantially. So I'm open for suggestions, if you have any.

I know this is a HUGE post, but I really want to form a great finished product. I don't want to take shortcuts/etc, so I'm making sure I'm using the best methods possible for each case.

Thanks in advance,
Pover

[faulty_damper]

Movement 1:
-in the development section, m.69-71, I'm having trouble playing the RH crotchets. for m.69, i use 1 and 2 for the F and Dnatural. and I play the B natural with 4, and then C natural with 5. then continue the tremolo with 1 and 2. I'm having trouble playing this at speed, and especially bringing out the two crotchets, since at that point my hand is stretched almost completely.

1. The wrist should be higher so that your fingers don't need to press the keys as much and...
2. the forearm should rotate to help depress the keys.
3. the crotchets - the hand should slant to align the 4 and then the 5.  Do not try to depress them with just the fingers.

Movement 3:
-Just a question about the trio section, where the RH plays double fourths. does anyone know a good fingering, and is it supposed to be ALL connected? I've managed to use a fingering but it certainly isn't ordinary, by any means.

It should be pedaled.  Alternatively, you could distribute the 4ths to the left hand, but it should still be pedaled for texture.

Finally, Movement 4:
-Finding real trouble with the lightning speed arpeggios. Especially keeping them quiet and even (both in duration and dynamics). Any tips for this? Should i practice small sections fast, or at a comfortable speed and increase the speed gradually?

Group the notes into one combined motion:
1. forearm rotation
2. in-out + high wrist
3. elbow out to position thumb on decents

-The 3 against 2 poly rhythms look like they're going to be really tough to pull off at the incredibly fast tempo. Any suggestions here? I can play them at a comfortable tempo, but they seem impossible to do accurately at prestissimo.

High wrist + forearm rotation to depress the alternating octaves.

[pover]

1. The wrist should be higher so that your fingers don't need to press the keys as much and...
2. the forearm should rotate to help depress the keys.
3. the crotchets - the hand should slant to align the 4 and then the 5.  Do not try to depress them with just the fingers.

This sounds like good advice. I've yet to try it out, since I can't play anymore today. And as for the forearm rotation, do you suggest rotating it toward the 2 crotchet notes?

Group the notes into one combined motion:
1. forearm rotation
2. in-out + high wrist
3. elbow out to position thumb on decents

Well, the triplet figuration are something like (F, Ab, C, then again F, Ab, C) etc until the descending arpeggios comes. Don't you think if I use forearm rotation to play the F, Ab, C in a way as if i was doing a sweeping motion, I won't have time to get back to the original position to do it again? I hope I'm being clear :S

lets say i play those 3 notes as a block chord, then roll them like an arpeggio. I can get pretty fast speeds with this. But then i find it difficult bringing the forearm to the initial position to do that again. So what I do is I play them mostly with my fingers - no fatigue or anything like that -, but then find real trouble playing the descending arpeggios evenly. Do you have any tips on the arpeggio specifically? Because It's kind of weird.

Also, what do you mean by "elbow out to position thumbs on descents"? Sorry, i didn't get that :/.

Thanks for your time, and I hope you can get back to me

[faulty_damper]

This sounds like good advice. I've yet to try it out, since I can't play anymore today. And as for the forearm rotation, do you suggest rotating it toward the 2 crotchet notes?

The amount of rotation depends on the length of your fingers but yes, toward the 2 crotchets.
Also, you can pedal it and use 5-5 which is what I do.  This makes it much easier but requires careful pedaling.

Well, the triplet figuration are something like (F, Ab, C, then again F, Ab, C) etc until the descending arpeggios comes. Don't you think if I use forearm rotation to play the F, Ab, C in a way as if i was doing a sweeping motion, I won't have time to get back to the original position to do it again? I hope I'm being clear :S

The motions are very slight and is more of a circular motion with the wrist which brings the 5 back to the F.

lets say i play those 3 notes as a block chord, then roll them like an arpeggio. I can get pretty fast speeds with this. But then i find it difficult bringing the forearm to the initial position to do that again. So what I do is I play them mostly with my fingers - no fatigue or anything like that -, but then find real trouble playing the descending arpeggios evenly. Do you have any tips on the arpeggio specifically? Because It's kind of weird.

The wrist.

Also, what do you mean by "elbow out to position thumbs on descents"? Sorry, i didn't get that :/.

When you transfer the arm over to the lower arpeggio, the elbow will naturally swing out as you position the thumb.  Let it do that naturally.

[pover]

The wrist.

This cleared up a lot of confusion, thanks.

When you transfer the arm over to the lower arpeggio, the elbow will naturally swing out as you position the thumb.  Let it do that naturally.

If I understand you correctly, I think it happens with me a lot. When I play arpeggios, sometimes I notice that my elbow kind of shoots up when transitioning to the next arpeggios. I've read and heard lots of places that this should be avoided, but others say it's okay and that the movements usually decrease at faster tempos. Is this true and is my understanding correct? I find I always face this problem, and until i get a teacher - maybe in the summer (temporarily, I can't afford a teacher all the time :S) - I can't find the correct answer. Is it natural that the elbow kind of shoots up between 1 arpeggio and the next?

[faulty_damper]

The elbow naturally swings out and is normal.  However, i was originally taught that should never happen but it made it very difficult for me to play arpeggios.  Since letting the elbow swing out facilitates playing, it's the correct motion.  Any motion, or lack of it, that inhibits playing should be avoided.

[lazyfingers]

Also, you can pedal it and use 5-5 which is what I do.  This makes it much easier but requires careful pedaling.

That would not be my advice. There is no need to play those top notes 5-5, and definitely not Beethoven's intent.

Pover - look at mm70, you will notice that the top notes are slurred. Also, the slurs are in a different place to the slurs on the bottom which restates the second theme and hence is very important to get right. This is the first place (from mm66) where the second theme is played in the LH. You will note that the LH slur ends where the top slur begins, and then the LH b-flat is staccato.

Also, note that from mm68 onwards, Beethoven has included rests at the top voice, even in bars where the voice is completely silent, drawing attention that this is an independent voice. This RH slurring is carried forwards (eg. mm 80), and then even ornamented in mm94 onwards. It is important to get the slurs sounding correct, and you can't bludgeon your way through with the pedal.

[pover]

That would not be my advice. There is no need to play those top notes 5-5, and definitely not Beethoven's intent.

Pover - look at mm70, you will notice that the top notes are slurred. Also, the slurs are in a different place to the slurs on the bottom which restates the second theme and hence is very important to get right. This is the first place (from mm66) where the second theme is played in the LH. You will note that the LH slur ends where the top slur begins, and then the LH b-flat is staccato.

Also, note that from mm68 onwards, Beethoven has included rests at the top voice, even in bars where the voice is completely silent, drawing attention that this is an independent voice. This RH slurring is carried forwards (eg. mm 80), and then even ornamented in mm94 onwards. It is important to get the slurs sounding correct, and you can't bludgeon your way through with the pedal.

Hey lazyfingers. I agree, the LH upper voice is really important to make clear, especially in conjunction with the theme in the LH. One must find a certain balance and that's a part of the difficulty. You've made a real difference to me when you pointed out the rests, and how the voice is independent. I guess that'll change that way I look at it and try to play it.

What i still find most difficult is playing the accompaniment as soft as i can, and I guess this just comes with practice and kind of "ghosting" it. Thanks for the heads up.

[lazyfingers]

Hey lazyfingers. I agree, the LH upper voice is really important to make clear, especially in conjunction with the theme in the LH. One must find a certain balance and that's a part of the difficulty. You've made a real difference to me when you pointed out the rests, and how the voice is independent. I guess that'll change that way I look at it and try to play it.

You will find this a common device that composers use - where the other hand plays something against the melody. It adds interest to the melody. In essence, what you want to strive for in that passage is to hear the LH playing the second theme, with the occasional slurred two notes ("ti dum?") in the RH. The tremolo is just accompaniment and unimportant for the music line.

I urge you to watch out for the phrasing (especially the slurring) as melody simulates what/how a singer would sing. The end of the phrase is where singer would breath. And it is how you achieve musicality in what you play. And the phrasing would often determine how you play the passage by way of technique or fingering, to achieve the musicality required.

What i still find most difficult is playing the accompaniment as soft as i can, and I guess this just comes with practice and kind of "ghosting" it. Thanks for the heads up.

I don't know what you mean by "ghosting" but if you mean playing the thumb and 2nd finger really soft, then yes. Remember they are playing the accompaniment to the melody played in the LH. The requirement to play louder in the 3-4-5 fingers, and soft in the 1-2 fingers is quite common for the RH.

Do you still need help with the fingering with double fourths? The same principle applies to the fingering of that as for double thirds. Try to achieve as much legato as possible with the fingering rather than depending on the pedal for that.

Good luck.

[pover]

I urge you to watch out for the phrasing (especially the slurring) as melody simulates what/how a singer would sing. The end of the phrase is where singer would breath. And it is how you achieve musicality in what you play. And the phrasing would often determine how you play the passage by way of technique or fingering, to achieve the musicality required.

That is usually one of the toughest things for me to pull off. usually, to do that, I need to have the passage well under my fingers and pretty much clear of any technical challenges, so I can focus on really shaping the phrase. What I find is that whenever i increase the tempo, all the phrasings and dynamic contrasts I've worked on seem to diminish and kind of escape me. This is something i really need to work on.

I usually work on phrasing with things like chopin waltzes. So far, I've played op 64/2, op 69/2 and working on no.1 now, and A minor op. posth. Since waltzes are GENERALLY easier technically, I find working on musicality slightly easier with them, because i get the notes down comfortably without much trouble, giving me room for interpretative practice.

I don't know what you mean by "ghosting" but if you mean playing the thumb and 2nd finger really soft, then yes. Remember they are playing the accompaniment to the melody played in the LH. The requirement to play louder in the 3-4-5 fingers, and soft in the 1-2 fingers is quite common for the RH.

Ghosting/Miming is pretty much playing the piece as it is written, but instead of playing the part you want softer, just move your fingers over the keys without actually pressing them. So in this case, you would play the LH melody, the RH slurs, all while moving 1 and 2 over the accompaniment without actually depressing the keys. This usually works for me but for passages like this, it's much harder to control the fingers so as not to depress the keys. Just shows how much tougher it is to make the accompaniment pianissimo in this case.

Do you still need help with the fingering with double fourths? The same principle applies to the fingering of that as for double thirds. Try to achieve as much legato as possible with the fingering rather than depending on the pedal for that.

For the double fourths, a friend of mine gave me the fingering. Thanks for the offer though

It's really fun sharing experiences and talking about these things with other people especially since I don't have a teacher. It makes you feel that you're not the only one with those problems, and help you solve them through the help of others (who were) in the same situation. So thanks

[pover]

Sorry for bringing this back up, but I've been having a problem that's been really getting on my nerves. I CAN'T PLAY AS SOFT AS I WANT TO IN MY LH frown frown

It's extremely frustrating. I thought I've had as much control as I needed if I played a comfortable tempo, but apparently that's not the case. I knew the 2nd movement would cause some trouble,especially with phrasing and interpretation, but I didn't expect the LH to misbehave itself this much

I've been facing problems getting as soft as I want it to be, even in the adagio. Apart from not being able to get the dolce feel, the LH seems to increase in volume at certain spots randomly, like a bump in the road. I feel it's hard to control, especially when i really want to play softly in my RH too, the LH leaves no room for great dynamic contrasts.

This is especially troubling in the prestissimo. I'm lost as to whether to practice the triplet arpeggio figurations in the beginning completely legato or non-legato (slightly detached). I feel if I play them legato, it's much harder to make it softer, and also makes it kind of "bumpy" and uneven at tempo. when I play it non-legato, I feel I have more control, especially since the RH chords are crisp. I don't think playing them non-legato would be a bad idea, to be honest. But still I'm facing problems with getting the desired dynamics I want frown

does anyone have any practical tips on how to practice to get that? I'm sorry for the long posts and continuous annoyances, but this particular problem is one that seems to like to stick with me.

[faulty_damper]

Is your piano well regulated and hammers appropriately voiced?  I've played on some pianos where it was impossible to get the bass quieter than the treble because it was in such poor condition.

Assuming that's not the case, this may be an issue of coordination due to poor practice strategies.  You should be finding the easiest movements possible and ingraining them.  If you start off too fast, you may be building unnecessary tension and then fighting that tension.  (Tension also limits your range of motion.)  You'll want to use only the necessary amount of energy to depress the keys.  You may be pressing down much more than you need to.

[pover]

Is your piano well regulated and hammers appropriately voiced?

Many people ask me this. How do I know if it is well regulated? I mean, the bass isn't much louder than the treble clef, It's like most pianos, pretty ordinary. But i find it difficult to get the sound I want with my left hand. It might be a problem with the LH since sometimes i can play pp with my RH, but passages where the LH is supposed to be play quickly AND quietly really kill me.

Right now I'm practicing chopin's waltz op 69 no 1, and polishing no 2. I don't find it really difficult getting quite in these, probably due to the comfortable tempo. But I'm also practicing -as you know- the prestissimo from beethoven's op.2 no.1, and it's unbelievable difficult to get as soft as i want to at the required tempo. I practice it slowly with the articulation i think will be necessary at a fast tempo, but how do i know if what i'm using will be suitable at a faster speed? Especially for things like the crazy arpeggios in that movement, I think if i practice them the way i do slowly, it won't translate into a faster tempo. I hope i'm being clear :S Know what I mean?

One more specific question: How do I translate the softness i can play with at a slow speed into a fast speed? Is it just a matter of continuing to do what I do, but slightly and steadily raising the speed? perhaps using a metronome?

Thanks for your time, much appreciated.

[faulty_damper]

For a long time, my piano wasn't regulated so it was almost impossible to play the bass softly.  Once it was regulated, most of the issues cleared up.  A quick way to check is to use your right hand in the bass and see if you can get the desired sound.  If so, then it's probably not the piano but issues with your left hand, which normally isn't as controlled as the right (in right-handed people.)

Anyway, soft and fast requires excellent control which requires excellent coordination.  You only need to press down enough for the hammers to hit the strings.  You don't need to press into the keybed more than that as that wastes energy.  Use the entire apparatus to minimize finger movements and try to note group.

From experience, I know that what I practice slowly can be applied at correct tempo.  But I don't know how to describe what I'm doing, only that I'm not over-relying on specific movements and that the entire apparatus is working together.

[pover]

and try to note group.

So for example, in this beethoven sonata's prestissimo, the first 3 LH triplets are just a Fm arpeggio (F, Ab, C) repeated. You suggest that whenever i find such patterns, that i group them into hand position (like block chords) and try to find an efficient movement to play them?

I did what i wanted with my RH, so i guess the problem is lack of control in the LH. Is this solved really by just playing slowly and focusing on getting it as soft as i want? It seems like the only way. I understand not playing deep into the keys. and recently i discovered that if i slightly lift the weight of the arm (at least that's what i feel like i'm doing), it slightly helps the LH become softer. Maybe that's because it decreases the depth the keys moves.

Anyway thanks for the help, time to practice  

[dima_76557]

@ pover

You may have to do the reverse: practise the left-hand pp passage quite loudly and vigorously for some time. No pedal. No tension anywhere. You may be suprised at how much control you acquire by doing that.

[faulty_damper]

You suggest that whenever i find such patterns, that i group them into hand position (like block chords) and try to find an efficient movement to play them?

Yes.  Here's a hint to find the most efficient forearm and hand angle that I always use: play the notes as a chord and figure out the optimum angle of everything.  When you play the triplet, your apparatus will pass through that optimum angle briefly, usually the middle note.  How you start and end the movement will be different.

Also, Dima's advice is a good one since you can do it with the right but not the left, it's probably a muscular issue that you just aren't comfortable with yet.  You'll have to condition the muscles to contract in such a way that it feels solid.  However, don't turn it into a finger strength exercise as that can make your tone worse.

[pover]

You may have to do the reverse: practise the left-hand pp passage quite loudly and vigorously for some time. No pedal. No tension anywhere. You may be suprised at how much control you acquire by doing that.

This actually sounds like sound advice. I sometimes do this, but it seems to work with certain things better than others. For example, when i practice passages with LH alberti bass where i have to hold down the bass note (for finger pedalling), I think doing this causes me to be comfortable with the "easy way out" of just playing forte, and the transition back to p/pp seems harder.

But for other things like chopin nocturnes and waltzes, should i try this as well? I find especially for nocturnes, that it's really rare that I practice without pedal, as sometimes the softest sound i can get with my LH is by kind of tickling (sort of brushing dust off) the keys, while a half pedal is down. Pedal changes are normal here, but I feel like when i lift the dampers, it's slightly easier to play softly. Is it just me or is this usually the case? I find this very evident especially in Op.9 no.1.

But for some other passages, where mainly there are running 16th notes or what have you, this technique seems to work immensely. I'd be happy to hear what you think about the earlier examples, if you have time, of course. 

Yes.  Here's a hint to find the most efficient forearm and hand angle that I always use: play the notes as a chord and figure out the optimum angle of everything.  When you play the triplet, your apparatus will pass through that optimum angle briefly, usually the middle note.  How you start and end the movement will be different.

Faulty, on more than one occasion you mention playing with the whole apparatus. However, I sometimes find playing passages like those triplets where it needs to be kind of spooky/trembling that i kind of need to keep a relaxed hand/wrist and sort of tickle the keys. IIRC, it was in one of Josh Wright's video (do you know him?) where he said that to play dynamically quieter it's useful to be physically quieter as well (as in in terms of overall movement). What do you think of this?

[faulty_damper]

but I feel like when i lift the dampers, it's slightly easier to play softly. Is it just me or is this usually the case? I find this very evident especially in Op.9 no.1.

That's because the dampers also have weight.  When you depress the pedal, it removes that weight from the keys so your fingers don't have to press against it.

Faulty, on more than one occasion you mention playing with the whole apparatus. However, I sometimes find playing passages like those triplets where it needs to be kind of spooky/trembling that i kind of need to keep a relaxed hand/wrist and sort of tickle the keys. IIRC, it was in one of Josh Wright's video (do you know him?) where he said that to play dynamically quieter it's useful to be physically quieter as well (as in in terms of overall movement). What do you think of this?

Another way of saying whole apparatus is to use all the available parts of the body so as to not over-rely on one set of movements.  Those triplets can easily be played with fingers only but it would tire quickly.  By using a bit of forearm rotation and wrist movement, the fingers don't have to move as much so it won't get tired.  The hand/wrist is flexible.  To clarify, the amount of rotation to play those triplets is very slight.

I don't know Wright, but if he means that the body doesn't move much as you play quieter? then I guess that's one way to describe it.