Chopin waltz op 69 no 1

[pover]

Hey guys. I'm learning this piece, and I'm facing a problem. In the 3rd bar of the con animo section, the left hand has to play Bb, Ab, and D natural. Obviously I can't reach this, and both the Bb and D natural need to be held for the whole 3 beats, and the Ab is held for only 1 and a half beats, then I play 2 Bb's. Any ideas on how to solve this? I can't roll it, since the 2 notes need to be held, and it wouldn't give a nice result anyway. If you have any ideas, I'll appreciate any help. Thanks

[faulty_damper]

You do not hold any keys, just pedal.  Let the pedal do the holding for you.

[pover]

You do not hold any keys, just pedal.  Let the pedal do the holding for you.

But I can't even reach those 3 notes in the beginning, unless i roll them, and I don't think that sounds really good 

[hfmadopter]

You should be able to reach the Bflat and Aflat but not the D. So you depress those two notes, let the Bflat go and pivot on the A flat to hit D with the thumb. It's a very common thing to have to do. If you can't reach the first two notes with your little finger and index finger ( bet you can), then use the thumb on the upper note and quickly switch in the index for your pivot so your thumb can be on the D.

So continuing with that theme, you can learn to smooth this out to sound pretty natural. I'm not a fan of Chopin Waltzes so am not all that familiar with the piece but usually in his works there is enough going on musically that this little maneuver either goes unnoticed or is viewed as acceptable.

Edit: Actually I looked up the score here at piano street and printed it. The pedal is down anyway, so you really shouldn't have a huge issue with this. Heck even if you had to drop a note it wouldn't be the end of the world. Actually this score shows a roll ! The pedal rests for the last beat in the measure. Do you have the Piano Street Score ? It's well defined . Also they show a two three switch of the fingers vs my idea.

[pover]

hfmadopter, thanks for the suggestion. I can't get access to the PS sheet music since I need to be a gold member. But the score I use is either from IMSLP or free-scores, and it's pretty neat and helpful, though it doesn't show a roll there. Do you think rolling that chord would be appropriate? I try not to depress the pedal all the way down, as that creates too much resonance for my taste.. Something like half a pedal I guess, and i usually lift it off mid-bar. So I guess I'll just pedal this whole measure from now on thanks for help

[lazyfingers]

But I can't even reach those 3 notes in the beginning, unless i roll them, and I don't think that sounds really good  

Most texts have it as an arpeggio - so you are correct to roll them.

However, my Henle Verlag Urtext edition has the b-flat as a grace note.

So, it is up to you which way you wish to play it. Personally, I would go with the Henle Verlag when in doubt, since the quality of their research for Chopin is pretty thorough in my experience.

[lazyfingers]

But the score I use is either from IMSLP or free-scores, and it's pretty neat and helpful, though it doesn't show a roll there.

I've check both the Kullak and Mikuli editions from IMSLP and both have arpeggio indications (the wavy lines down the left hand side of the chord).

Which were you looking at?

[hfmadopter]

hfmadopter, thanks for the suggestion. I can't get access to the PS sheet music since I need to be a gold member. But the score I use is either from IMSLP or free-scores, and it's pretty neat and helpful, though it doesn't show a roll there. Do you think rolling that chord would be appropriate? I try not to depress the pedal all the way down, as that creates too much resonance for my taste.. Something like half a pedal I guess, and i usually lift it off mid-bar. So I guess I'll just pedal this whole measure from now on thanks for help

The amount of pedal used is up to you and how your piano sounds to you. I played that passage in question on my Kawai digital and used about half pedal and did pivot over the A flat on my index finger. And as I said the Piano Street score is written, released the pedal on the last beat. It sounded fine to me ( it wouldn't hurt anything to play the whole measure with pedal though). On my grand that would mean I would have barely touched the pedal actually, as it resonates a lot with full pedal or even half pedal. I rarely use more than half pedal on the grand and seem to always be cramming the thing into the floor on my digital !

[pover]

I've check both the Kullak and Mikuli editions from IMSLP and both have arpeggio indications (the wavy lines down the left hand side of the chord).

Which were you looking at?

It's strange. I've been checking all the scores i remember looking at, but i can't find this particular one. I forgot which one it was lol, but it definitely didn't indicate it being rolled. But I really like your suggestion of playing the Bb as a grace note, before the beat, so that the same texture remains for the LH. Very good suggestion  

The amount of pedal used is up to you and how your piano sounds to you. I played that passage in question on my Kawai digital and used about half pedal and did pivot over the A flat on my index finger. And as I said the Piano Street score is written, released the pedal on the last beat. It sounded fine to me ( it wouldn't hurt anything to play the whole measure with pedal though). On my grand that would mean I would have barely touched the pedal actually, as it resonates a lot with full pedal or even half pedal. I rarely use more than half pedal on the grand and seem to always be cramming the thing into the floor on my digital !

Yeah, I seem to find a difference between how I pedal when I play my own piano, and when I play other pianos. Maybe part of it is because my beautiful pedal gives a VERY annoying squeaky sound when i press or depress it at a normal speed, so I have to be REALLY careful with how I pedal. I've gotten used to it, and it makes me pedal relatively slowly, which conditions me for correct (I guess?) pedaling -for slower pieces at least-. But as you can imagine, it's a whole new story when i need those fast pedal on/offs with fast passages. So really, i have to grow accustomed to playing with it, or maybe fix it and save myself all the trouble lol (which I might do in a month, after all those bloody exams are over...).

BTW, thanks a lot for going through the trouble of printing the score, and trying it out and all for me Since you've got it already, I HIGHLY suggest learning this piece. Even though you might not prefer waltzes, this really is a beautiful piece, kind of with a longing feeling. Good music for a rainy night when you miss someone  

P.S: The 13 note flourish is gonna need some detailed work to get it to sound how it does in my head. It's gonna take lots of control to start it pianissimo and grow kind of "spontaneously" to the desired result, all while making a pearly sound. Lol this is gonna be troublesome 

[hfmadopter]

Yeah, I seem to find a difference between how I pedal when I play my own piano, and when I play other pianos. Maybe part of it is because my beautiful pedal gives a VERY annoying squeaky sound when i press or depress it at a normal speed, so I have to be REALLY careful with how I pedal. I've gotten used to it, and it makes me pedal relatively slowly, which conditions me for correct (I guess?) pedaling -for slower pieces at least-. But as you can imagine, it's a whole new story when i need those fast pedal on/offs with fast passages. So really, i have to grow accustomed to playing with it, or maybe fix it and save myself all the trouble lol (which I might do in a month, after all those bloody exams are over...).

I've worked on a few passages from it this morning and find myself wanting to use some of Chopin's ideas in my own compositions I've been working on recently.  I don't see me completing it though but more using it as nourishment !

On the flourish as you call it, my suggestion is don't dive into it full speed on those first couple notes, let it build and then it retards maybe about half way through . If it's a little long oh well, take some artistic liberty with it. Eventually it will come off very naturally. If I haven't learned anything else with Chopin, its the feel is more important than true accuracy anyway. Chopin can't be played mechanically. Let things bloom, do a little more heart spilling on the keys than you might in Bach or with Mozart even. People like to call it rubato, I don't know what I call it.

My grands pedal had a squeak a couple of years ago. I rotated the vertical shaft about 180 deg and it's been gone ever since.

[pover]

I've worked on a few passages from it this morning and find myself wanting to use some of Chopin's ideas in my own compositions I've been working on recently.

Didn't know you composed  Is it difficult finding inspiration? What kind of pieces do you compose? Sonatas? Or things like preludes or even like fantasies?

If I haven't learned anything else with Chopin, its the feel is more important than true accuracy anyway. Chopin can't be played mechanically.

Couldn't agree with you more. This is one of those passages where you need to experiment with different things until you find something you can stick to. The difficult part - for me at least - is getting a good handle on the passages so I can start experimenting. I guess that's the advantage of being a well-equipped pianist; you get to start experimenting right away.

My grands pedal had a squeak a couple of years ago. I rotated the vertical shaft about 180 deg and it's been gone ever since.

That was a quick fix, lol. My piano is an upright, and to be honest, I don't know much else about it hahaha. I bet that I'd make it worse than it is if I started playing around with it. It's an ottostein, if that means anything, although I've never heard people talk of that brand. My parents bought it for my sister around 5 years ago, when she started taking lessons and exams. At the time, I used to play guitar, but got bored of lessons so I just started playing riffs and what have you. Eventually, I started learning moonlight sonata on the guitar (I know, I know..), but then thought to myself, "what if I play this on piano?". And that's how it all started, around 2 years ago. Unfortunately, I've been self-taught as lessons are really expensive, but I plan on taking lessons for around 3 months in the Summer, after my exams (which I should be studying right now, instead of communicating on a piano forum ). Anyway... I don't know where this long passage came from, I just got carried away I guess. Sometimes it's nice just talking to people about piano and music, you know? Especially since I'm self-taught, I don't get much of an opportunity to do that with anyone. 

If you got this far, you deserve a prize. Anyway, thanks for your time and your help 

[hfmadopter]

Didn't know you composed  Is it difficult finding inspiration? What kind of pieces do you compose? Sonatas? Or things like preludes or even like fantasies?

If you got this far, you deserve a prize. Anyway, thanks for your time and your help 

No nothing so glorious, they are meaningful to me though and to my wife and family ! It just came to me one day. I have tried many times to create even just a simple melody that made sense even back when I took accordion lessons as a kid. Now at 64 it has been coming to me, best I can tell you. 5 pieces thus far. And a couple of others that ended up out of my head, so I figure well maybe they weren't so great. Actually I'm rather awe struck by this experience and feel very blessed ( seriously, I'm a very spiritual person as some folks know around here). The way this is going is very much like in a repeated dream I have had on and off in my life. I sit at a piano, in the dream I am on stage and I don't know the score. My hands go and out comes this beautiful melody and harmony etc. I don't know the piece but my hands know just exactly where to go. When I used to wake from the dream it was as if it was real and the music was very moving. Now though that is how my pieces all start. It starts with a mood and to strike just one note. I find a note that sounds right to me and that forms the key signature. I find about the next three notes or so and then the notes just spill out on the keyboard. I then find a modulation point and my way back to the original. That's the beginning, then I work on it from there. Sometimes it takes one or two tries to find the key, then it just goes. The basic theme comes together in minutes. Sometimes I play a single note and my mind knows where to go with it right away. Again, this is the start, obviously I have to build on it. I played my first piece on a Tuesday night at bible study, I started it on Sat. It included two modulations, went from the mid top register of the keyboard more or less to the bottom more or less and a few places in between. It has one theme change. Gets pretty for a while there and goes from C M and dives right into A m in octaves, so it gets real lively. They are not complicated master works by any stretch of the imagination but people like them, They state seeing themselves walking down paths or horses on the plains and a storm brewing etc.. Depends on who is listening.

So they are just original compositions that's all but I have just about enough classical background to add some ornamentation here and there and I know how to climb scales, sometimes some counter melody etc.  Believe me, I'm not headed to Carnegie Hall any time soon. But I love doing this more than anything I've done yet on the piano. It's mesmerizing to do and very very rewarding.

[pover]

But I love doing this more than anything I've done yet on the piano

And that's the most important thing! From what I read, you seem really passionate about composing. More than passionate actually, it kind of was in you long before you started to bring it out. I've had many of those dreams, but not piano related, hard to describe. Do you usually have the melody in your head and then bring it to life at the piano, or do you experiment on the spot until you find something you like? You sound like a really accomplished pianist, which I believe is kind of required before someone sets foot into something like this.

Anyway, great story. You're an interesting person, let me tell you that. Enjoyed reading, and keep composing! Btw, is there anywhere I can listen to those composition, or do you prefer to keep them for yourself?

[hfmadopter]

And that's the most important thing! From what I read, you seem really passionate about composing. More than passionate actually, it kind of was in you long before you started to bring it out. I've had many of those dreams, but not piano related, hard to describe. Do you usually have the melody in your head and then bring it to life at the piano, or do you experiment on the spot until you find something you like? You sound like a really accomplished pianist, which I believe is kind of required before someone sets foot into something like this.

Anyway, great story. You're an interesting person, let me tell you that. Enjoyed reading, and keep composing! Btw, is there anywhere I can listen to those composition, or do you prefer to keep them for yourself?

Pover, when I record them and if you are still around the forum I'll PM you and provide a link or what ever we arrange. I must record them soon as I have some commitments with them ( my daughters wedding next Aug and a pastors web site for his ministry) and if for no other reason than to just lay claim to them as all mine.

I begin with what sounds right from the keys and it goes from there to answer your question. The melody builds in my head from that. I can sit and meditate with my new melody or the piece actually in my head at that point and my mind creates a new passage or a little run or some kind of little sync in the beat and I go to the piano and find it, make it happen. Whats tough if is if it's happening to me at work and I have to wait to get to a piano. I may very well lose it but I figure if it's good enough it will retain. That's how they evolve. One has totally morphed away from where I started except that it is still mostly in Em. I'm learning how to go about this. Like in that morphed one, perhaps it actually could have been two separate pieces if I had kept to the original and built a new one from the early morphing. I don't know, this is all so new to me I just run with it ! What comes comes, what is meant to be will be and nothing more.

No I am not all that accomplished, I'm like every one else here in the students forum. I take weeks or months to learn composers pieces. I have always enjoyed taking simple pop pieces or show pieces, the easy arrangements and making them my own with my own chord structure and what ever else I could comfortably or s;lightly outside my comfort zone fit into them. I have trouble memorizing pieces but have improved on that in the last two years with some diligence ( I lost some of that ability, when I was in my 30's I memorized all my performances but lost some of that ability with time away from the piano, growing family needs etc). These pieces I create just come to me, it's another whole thing that is going on in me, it is so removed from that grind of learning peoples works. I would be very curious what the scores would look like quite honestly. Maybe along the way I will find out.

Anyway enough, I'll give you a shout when something is recorded !

[pover]

I hope I'll be around by then

But I guess different people like different things. I for one really like to play classical/romantic, not much into jazz/improv composing. Maybe because I feel a connection with the styles I play, and I feel that that kind of music says everything I want to say.

Maybe sometime down the road, who knows. Looking forward to your recording, whenever that may be! Take your time and don't pressure yourself. I know when I do that to myself I why I'm performing in the first place: to share beautiful music. So have fun

[hfmadopter]

I hope I'll be around by then

But I guess different people like different things. I for one really like to play classical/romantic, not much into jazz/improv composing. Maybe because I feel a connection with the styles I play, and I feel that that kind of music says everything I want to say.

Maybe sometime down the road, who knows. Looking forward to your recording, whenever that may be! Take your time and don't pressure yourself. I know when I do that to myself I why I'm performing in the first place: to share beautiful music. So have fun

I am not a fan of very much jazz either nor over embellished improv, FWIW. Much of my background is classical in nature.