Chopin Nocturne Op48, No 1 in C Minor

[kerryblue]

Mislav Ivaci (16 y.o.)

[faulty_damper]

Opening section melody is clunky; resolutions should be softer, not accented.   It could also be played faster; it drags a bit.  Second section tempo has good forward momentum.  Offbeats should not be accented.

The biggest issue is principally with the inappropriate accents of the melody.  Tension>resolution.  Otherwise, pretty good performance.

[faulty_damper]

Another issue that I just noticed is that the beginning is marked "mezza voce", medium voice.  This should be interpreted dynamically as mezza forte, with a forcefulness that is almost exclamatory.  Note that there are rests between those two quarter notes (mm. 1, 5, 17, 49, etc.) which also supports this assertion as well as the octave and octave chords in the accompanying LH.  Further, m4 is marked stretto which further implies this character, with a rushing force.

This issue has bothered me for several years because every single performance I've heard of this nocturne starts softly, but the way it is written doesn't support such an interpretation.  And just trying it now with the exclamatory interpretation, it sounds much, much more in line with the intended character.

[lazyfingers]

Another issue that I just noticed is that the beginning is marked "mezza voce", medium voice.  This should be interpreted dynamically as mezza forte,

No it is not. You are trying to interpret the term to fit the mp/mf term which is totally different.

Mezzo voce is a singing direction which in italian is literally "half voice". It is a suppressed voice and meant to be sung softly. If it "mezza voce" rather than "mezzo voce", it could be argued to be even softer because that is the feminine equivalent.

This issue has bothered me for several years because every single performance I've heard of this nocturne starts softly

And they have done it correctly because they understand how to interpret the singing direction.

[faulty_damper]

No it is not. You are trying to interpret the term to fit the mp/mf term which is totally different.

Mezzo voce is a singing direction which in italian is literally "half voice". It is a suppressed voice and meant to be sung softly.

I obviously disagree with this for the aforementioned reason.  If he meant softly, he would have indicated p as he had indicated in many of the other nocturnes.  But in this instance, he did not and specifically wrote mezzo voce.   It sounds much better louder, not softly.

[lazyfingers]

I obviously disagree with this for the aforementioned reason.  If he meant softly, he would have indicated p as he had indicated in many of the other nocturnes.

No - he is not marking the dynamics in the "normal" pp to ff range for a reason.

I believe he was using the voice terminology to explicit explain that he wants this vocal singer's direction and to be played as if a human singer were to sing it. Naturally the human voice has a totally different dynamic range to a (modern) piano.

But in this instance, he did not and specifically wrote mezzo voce.   It sounds much better louder, not softly.

Your reasoning fails because it is self contradictory. If he meant mf he would have used it. Just like your argument that if he meant p he would have used it.

[j_menz]

I obviously disagree with this for the aforementioned reason.  If he meant softly, he would have indicated p as he had indicated in many of the other nocturnes.  But in this instance, he did not and specifically wrote mezzo voce.   It sounds much better louder, not softly.

I very much doubt Chopin intended to rewrite the Italian language, and it seems rather presumptuous of you to attempt to do so.

Mezzo voce is a well known musical term, which has apparently escaped your attention. It means half-voice. It indicates not only volume (soft) but also a sense of languid mood or reduced effort.

You may prefer the piece played differently, but do not attempt to assert that that is what Chopin instructed.

[faulty_damper]

piena voce - full voice
mezzo voce - medium voice
sotto voce - quiet voice

If he meant piano, he would have written sotto voce, which he clearly did not.  As well, the intended character of mezzo voce is quite apparent when played as such, not softly.  It has a much fuller character, a restraint that is can be heard if played mezzo voce.  That is why he indicated it as such.

[j_menz]

piena voce - full voice
mezzo voce - medium voice
sotto voce - quiet voice

If he meant piano, he would have written sotto voce, which he clearly did not.  As well, the intended character of mezzo voce is quite apparent when played as such, not softly.  It has a much fuller character, a restraint that is can be heard if played mezzo voce.  That is why he indicated it as such.

Plena voce or a piena voce 

sotto voce would generally be even softer (pp) and more distant.

You're grasping at straws.

[lazyfingers]

sotto voce would generally be even softer (pp) and more distant.

Correct. Literally it means "under" the voice.

You're grasping at straws.

Correct.

[lazyfingers]

piena voce - full voice
mezzo voce - medium voice
sotto voce - quiet voice

A strawman argument. You frame the terms in such a way to give an impression that there is an even separation between the terms, where there isn't one.

"Sotto voce" is not equidistant from mezzo voce as a piena voce is from mezzo voce.

Sotto voce is actually translated as "under the voice" and softly enough not to be overheard. In singing it is not only very soft but in a sort of whispery manner.

If he meant piano, he would have written sotto voce, which he clearly did not.

Again, your argument is self contradictory. He didn't only mean p, mp, mf, f etc. He used a singing instruction to which you refuse to accept and claim it must mean mf.

[faulty_damper]

It sounds better louder, not softly as most pianists play it.  Address the way it sounds as a real musician would.

[cabbynum]

I'm just gonna throw this out here. Just a fact, you guys can take it or leave it.

Chopin was a huge lover of opera and loved voice works.

[faulty_damper]

I'm just gonna throw this out here. Just a fact, you guys can take it or leave it.

Chopin was a huge lover of opera and loved voice works.

We know that. While they are arguing over the semantics of mezzo voce, they should just listen to the music with their ears.  Heck, they should just try reproducing that restrained anguish at the piano to hear what I hear.  It's clearly not softly and that's not how Chopin would have written it if he meant softly.  If he meant softly, he would have written that melody on the downbeat, not upbeat.  And he wouldn't have doubled the bass and filled the inner voice with such a wide spacing.

[lazyfingers]

It sounds better louder, not softly as most pianists play it.  Address the way it sounds as a real musician would.

Apparently most would disagree from the way, as you acknowledge, they play this. So, to them it sounds better. So, are you saying that everyone you have listened to playing this aren't "real musicians", and only you are?

It might sound better to YOU, but that is not the same as saying that it is following Chopin's direction.

[j_menz]

It sounds better louder, not softly as most pianists play it.  Address the way it sounds as a real musician would.

 

So Chopin was wrong?

[j_menz]

Chopin was a huge lover of opera and loved voice works.

It's a shame he was actually pretty crap at writing them. Much as he tried.

[lazyfingers]

We know that. While they are arguing over the semantics of mezzo voce, they should just listen to the music with their ears.

We have. Apparently most pianist have as well and play it not as loud as you would prefer.

If he meant softly, he would have written that melody on the downbeat, not upbeat.

What? You do realise that the melody where the mezzo voce is intended actually starts with a rest?

And he wouldn't have doubled the bass and filled the inner voice with such a wide spacing.

Doubled bass does not have to be loud especially when marked lento, as clearly countless pianists have managed to achieve. Your arguments are increasingly self contradictory, and you make assertions that are clearly unfounded.

[lazyfingers]

Chopin was a huge lover of opera and loved voice works.

Absolutely. He was arguably just as much influenced by Bellini's Bel Canto as Liszt was by Pagannini's fiery virtuosity.

In my view, to understand some of Chopin's work require basic understanding of singing.

[faulty_damper]

We have. Apparently most pianist have as well and play it not as loud as you would prefer.
What? You do realise that the melody where the mezzo voce is intended actually starts with a rest?
Doubled bass does not have to be loud especially when marked lento, as clearly countless pianists have managed to achieve. Your arguments are increasingly self contradictory, and you make assertions that are clearly unfounded.

They are not contradictory; you just label them as such when you disagree.  As well, I can hear fine on my own, without the need to hear these countless pianists.  You also need to read and understand what I'm actually saying, not twisting it around to suit your needs.  Listen, don't think.

[j_menz]

don't think.

At least you take your own advice.

Do you have an example of anyone, anywhere playing it the way you prescribe so that we may listen? (I'm away from a piano at present)

[faulty_damper]

At least you take your own advice.

Do you have an example of anyone, anywhere playing it the way you prescribe so that we may listen? (I'm away from a piano at present)

Enough with these insults!  Away, away, away!

Anyway, no one I've heard has played it the way I suggested.  I just figured it out today after all these years when I looked at the Carisch edition which spells out "m. v." (from the Henle edition) as "mezzo voce".  That's when I realized why it never sounded right playing it softly, because it's not the correct interpretation, and why I just never liked the beginning of this piece.  Nothing makes sense (the fullness of the doubled base, full open chords, and quarter rests between the two notes, etc.) unless it's played slightly louder, with the middle voice chords almost at the same dynamic level as two-note melodic exclamation.  The opening character is one of reserved anguish, hence the mezzo voce direction, and why there is so much note texture.

[j_menz]

Anyway, no one I've heard has played it the way I suggested.  I just figured it out today after all these years when I looked at the Carisch edition which spells out "m. v." (from the Henle edition) as "mezzo voce[/i"].  That's when I realized why it never sounded right playing it softly,

You may be surprised to learn that most editions (Breitkopf, Kullack, Mikuli, Klindworth, Scholtz, Joseffy) spell out mezza voce, so those who don't play it the way you suggest (ie, everybody) are most likely doing so in full knowledge of the marking.

As has been covered above, your interpretation of what mezza voce means is as unique as your view as to how this should be played.

By all means play it the way you think is right, but do not waste our time by trying to assert it is in accordance with the score.

BTW, to be helpful - if Henle has s.v. at the start of the Poco piu lento, it stands for sotto voce.

[faulty_damper]

You assume that many pianists really hear that well.  It's obvious to me that they don't or they would've been bothered as much as I've been.  All those practicing hours deadens the senses.

[j_menz]

It's obvious to me

And, you must by now realise, you alone.

[outin]

You assume that many pianists really hear that well.  It's obvious to me that they don't or they would've been bothered as much as I've been.  All those practicing hours deadens the senses.

You are very fortunate to possess such a unique technique that requires little practicing, unlike most professional pianists. It' s pity you are not interested in sharing your secrets or your unique performances with the world.

[dima_76557]

@ Mislav Ivaci

I enjoyed your rendition very much. Thanks for posting this.

[faulty_damper]

And, you must by now realise, you alone.

Yes, I alone, unfortunately.  Where's Gould to interpret this like a champ.

[faulty_damper]

You are very fortunate to possess such a unique technique that requires little practicing, unlike most professional pianists. It' s pity you are not interested in sharing your secrets or your unique performances with the world.

I've been ignoring you since you jumped on that bandwagon, but I'll respond here this time.  You, and many others, make far too many assumption that I never claimed.  And you shouldn't derail this thread to make it about me.

[j_menz]

Yes, I alone, unfortunately.  Where's Gould to interpret this like a champ.

Even Gould didn't like Gould's Chopin.

"I play it in a weak moment – maybe once a year or twice a year for myself. But it doesn't convince me"

[lazyfingers]

They are not contradictory; you just label them as such when you disagree.  

Well it is very funny from my point of view because it was you who lament that so many other don't subscribe to your (apparently paragon) taste.

As well, I can hear fine on my own, without the need to hear these countless pianists.

Don't you think that perhaps when you are "out on your own", perhaps it is because you are actually "out on your own" ?

You also need to read and understand what I'm actually saying, not twisting it around to suit your needs.  Listen, don't think.

I think I am listening.... perhaps you are not, given even you claim that everyone else prefers it differently.

[lazyfingers]

They are not contradictory; you just label them as such when you disagree.

Don't back track now... after all, it was you who insisted you were the paragon of taste and everyone else played too softly and (gasp) not "real musicians!".

For the record, I'm not against everyone else's interpretation. Just the fact that faulty here has placed himself as the arbiter of taste in this matter.

[lazyfingers]

@ Mislav Ivaci

I enjoyed your rendition very much. Thanks for posting this.

So did I for that matter. Thanks to Mislav - an achievement for a 16 y.o.

[lazyfingers]

As has been covered above, your interpretation of what mezza voce means is as unique as your view as to how this should be played.

+2.

[lazyfingers]

They are not contradictory; you just label them as such when you disagree.

Au contraire my fine feathered friend, they are. Your argument boils down to it should be mf since if he meant p he would have written it. The self-contradiction in your argument is if it was mf he would have written it so. (The fact he hasn't marked it mf hasn't occurred to you!)


So, please don't treat my favourite composer as an idiot even if you are.

[faulty_damper]

So, please don't treat my favourite composer as an idiot even if you are.

You may call me names, but I am not deaf.

[lazyfingers]

but I am not deaf.

That much ... my fine feathered friend .... is arguable.

So, far... from my perspective... you have an ear wax problem. Perhaps your wrists are too high....

[cabbynum]

Why I mentioned opera...

What Chopin does here is creat a very literal singing voice for the right hand with accompaniment in the left. So when I played it I thought of it as such. 2 different instruments playing. The right hand always being a voice singing very mournfully and sad. I never worried about the exact dynamic. I will sy I was never loud but I was never soft either. It was a powerful reserve. While the right hand pierces over the left hand.


The performer here did not have this problem. But I will comment on a funny thing about the doppio section. It is very possible to over do the melody being strong. It ruins the point of fleshing it out with chords if all you hear is the melody. A friend of mine plays it in such a way that you can hardly hear the chords at all. Pianistically this is extremely impressive. Musically it's very anticlimactic when you get the doppio and it just sounds like a faster A section

[lazyfingers]

Enough with these insults!  Away, away, away!

Anyway, no one I've heard has played it the way I suggested.  

And... the reason is ...?? ??

[lazyfingers]

Why I mentioned opera...

What Chopin does here is creat a very literal singing voice for the right hand with accompaniment in the left. So when I played it I thought of it as such. 2 different instruments playing. The right hand always being a voice singing very mournfully and sad. I never worried about the exact dynamic. I will sy I was never loud but I was never soft either. It was a powerful reserve. While the right hand pierces over the left hand.

Hmmm.. it makes me wonder. No doubt Chopin was influenced greatly by the bel canto style and hence most of his works have this long melodic line characteristic of Bellini (see Piano Conc. #1). But bel canto also preceded the Rossini/Wagner's large tenor high C, and in his time marked by restrained AT parts rather than the post-Rossini tenor high C gymnastics. Bel canto in Chopin's era was rather more restrained.

[kerryblue]

The only reason I put this video is because I am, as a father, very proud of Mislav and his daily hard work as young pianist.
As I am musician too (opera singer), I understand very well what you are talking about, but after all this years working on stage in theatre I can say that for my opinion
giving, offering the heart and soul to the audiance is most imoprtant and difficult thing ..............that is the music,that is art that is gift from god. None can teach you that.
I dont say that agogic tags in music are not important but ......

Thank s to all of you for listening him and for all your coment s.  

[lazyfingers]

The only reason I put this video is because I am, as a father, very proud of Mislav and his daily hard work as young pianist.

He plays extremely well for a 16 y.o. in the Ballade #1. I didn't comment there as I was unsure if you were seeking comment but he portrays a maturity beyond his age. There are a few things in my view that he can easily adopt once he matures. It is after all,  in my humble opinion, a piece that is perhaps the most romantic of the romantic pieces and he will only understand when he is older. I like many things about his rendition. As a parting advice, perhaps consider from mm104 the base left hand sounded deeper (played with the wrist all the way to the keybed. He holds his wrist too high in those places where the base really needs to be sounded in my opinion). I like the way that the first melody rubato felt, but the "split hands" rubato in the rest of the piece was not what I would have preferred although I understand why/how it is played.

The last time the second melody reappears can be a little more mysterious given it is just before the coda, and will therefore form a better base for the crescendo in the coda.

All in all, for a 16 y.o. a marvelous performance and augurs very well and you have great reason to be proud of him. Not many opportunities for injection of "taste" have been missed.

[kerryblue]

lazyfingers,I agree completely with your opinion that you wrote above, and of course thank you very much for compliments

[ronde_des_sylphes]

The only reason I put this video is because I am, as a father, very proud of Mislav and his daily hard work as young pianist.

You should be proud of him. He's obviously very talented, and this is a moving, mature interpretation with sweep and grandeur. I'm impressed.

[lazyfingers]

lazyfingers,I agree completely with your opinion that you wrote above, and of course thank you very much for compliments

Your views don't count, as you are obviously biased as a father!  

[kerryblue]

hahahahahahha no, no no. Now you are not right..... hahhah
Belive me I am his bigest critic.

[lazyfingers]

The last time the second melody reappears can be a little more mysterious given it is just before the coda, and will therefore form a better base for the crescendo in the coda

What the f am I saying? It is the FIRST melody for the last time that needs to be more mysterious ...sempre sotto voce. (for the avoidance of doubt for our friend faulty_damper, it is even marked meno mosso pp mm194).

Also, mm180 is marked con forza - I felt there should be more fire there.

Regards

[johnmar78]

Lazy, I liked your interpretation, especially the mid section. Very closely played. Congradualtions.
 

[faulty_damper]

What the f am I saying? It is the FIRST melody for the last time that needs to be more mysterious ...sempre sotto voce. (for the avoidance of doubt for our friend faulty_damper, it is even marked meno mosso pp mm194).

Also, mm180 is marked con forza - I felt there should be more fire there.

Regards

This comment isn't specifically about this nocturne, more of a general nature about music notation, but there is such a thing as following the score so closely that music will be missed in its entirety, akin to missing the forest through the trees.

[lazyfingers]

This comment isn't specifically about this nocturne, more of a general nature about music notation, but there is such a thing as following the score so closely that music will be missed in its entirety, akin to missing the forest through the trees.

You may wish to ignore the composer's direction and there is great merit in understanding what the composer is trying to say. There are others who can follow the score very closely, and yet see the forest through the trees. And musically, it this specific example it makes perfect sense because sempre sotto voce works wonderfully well in the last melodic passage.