Legato in the Theme of Symphonic etudes

[pianoman53]

Hi,

I recently started playing the symphonic etudes, by Schumann. Everything is going quite fine, and even though not everything works perfectly well at the moment, I know how to fix them. However, the theme is what brings me most trouble at the moment.
The melody should be played as legato as possible, but I can't figure out how it can be done.

Does anyone have ideas on how to break it properly, to keep as much legato as possible?

Thanks

[faulty_damper]

Is this a technical issue or a musical one?

[pianoman53]

I don't know how to connect, with pedal, the melody note. Technically.

[faulty_damper]

I assume the issue you're referring to mm.2-4, where the RH is arpeggiated.  You have two option on when to start the arpeggio; 1) on the down beat or 2) anticipating it so that the melody is actually on the downbeat.  I prefer the later as it sounds better, not delayed, and it won't be clipped by the pedal change.  You may lose some notes of the inner voice from the pedal change but you won't clip the melody which is much more important.  Alternately, you could do both as the cadence allows a bit more rhythmic freedom.

[marik1]

Yes, the theme is somewhat tricky. That legato is more like an illusion, created by very linear hand movement (with minimal vertical component) and bringing out the top voice quite a bit more than the chords. The legato is not much of actual physical connection, but rather a function of the music intentions. To make it work make a very good and clear shape of melody direction and phrasing. Then it will be much easier--the music will tell you exactly what to do.

Best, M

Hi,

I recently started playing the symphonic etudes, by Schumann. Everything is going quite fine, and even though not everything works perfectly well at the moment, I know how to fix them. However, the theme is what brings me most trouble at the moment.
The melody should be played as legato as possible, but I can't figure out how it can be done.

Does anyone have ideas on how to break it properly, to keep as much legato as possible?

Thanks

[nyiregyhazi]

I don't know how to connect, with pedal, the melody note. Technically.

I haven't checked specifically in this piece, but from what I recall of playing through, this technique may well work:

Often it's too much to overlap the whole previous chord into a new pedal but it's also too obvious to change the pedal and have a comma in the melody. If you release the chord EXCEPT the top note, while starting a new pedal with the bass, you can maintain legato connections in sound without melodic gaps, and without overloading the sound. Even when the retained note doesn't fit the new harmony, this is often effective, if you get the right quality of voicing (although there are some exceptions- particularly on a long cadence harmony). You don't generally need to clean up after the melody note if you voice it cleanly- just change with the bass, or do a mild flutter. A trace of blurring is often far superior to a break between two melodic notes (as long as only one single melodic note is carried from the last harmony, rather than the inner notes too). I use this technique in the Chopin C minor nocturne middle section, so there's never a hiccup in the melodic line.

[pianoman53]

Faulty: Clearly, it wouldn't be ideal to cut anything. There are lines in all the voices, and to cut one would not work. Thanks though!

Marik: Thanks. I had the same idea. Though, how to achieve this effect then? Now, I'm just practicing very slowly, trying to listen to every line, and phrase everything well. Is this somewhat the way you'd suggest?
I've only played it for 2 or 3 days, so maybe it's just natural that it's not good yet.

N: Thanks. I thought of that, but before I tried, I got the idea that splitting that it wouldn't be good to arpegiate the octave as well. Maybe I was too quick in judging.
I will try it soon.
Edit: I was jusdt watching Yuja wang, and she does it this way. Thanks for the advice

[marik1]

Marik: Thanks. I had the same idea. Though, how to achieve this effect then? Now, I'm just practicing very slowly, trying to listen to every line, and phrase everything well. Is this somewhat the way you'd suggest?
I've only played it for 2 or 3 days, so maybe it's just natural that it's not good yet.

The slower the tempo, the harder to make melodic line flow, so I'd bring it to speed, first. Then it will be much easier.

Best, M

[nyiregyhazi]

The slower the tempo, the harder to make melodic line flow, so I'd bring it to speed, first. Then it will be much easier.

Best, M

Really? I can't say the idea is wrong but I feel it takes phenomenal experience and voicing skill to make onward motion an early priority. For me, slow free time is the way to learn to relate sounds. The fact that melodies easily sag in slow tempo is what makes this practise so valuable. You have both the time to listen in to every sound and the chance to really observe whether the melody carries, in a situation where failures are most easily detected by the ear. If you make notes sound long and sonorous in a leisurely free tempo (with neither dips in sustain nor hard attacks, you can begin to worry about moving along. If it doesn't sustain already in casual tempo, I wouldn't put a trace of pressure on. From teaching some very good students in chopins c minor nocturnei, I always find any tempo pressure kills voicing in the middle section. Only by eliminating time pressures do i find they listen in properly to whether the melody can sing as a truly different level over background harmony. If they don't make room to hear every step of the spread and make extremely long melody notes float on top and last out (without any urgency in the spread) I find its almost impossible to get students to listen in and match up lasting tones. Until the melody can float separately from the other notes as if as if to last forever, I find that any sense of pressurisation kills voicing and sustain. An advanced pianist may skip that step, but if it's not assured that they are already capable of floating melody notes to the next (with as many as three or four seconds of audible melodic sustain) I wouldn't generally expect them to have success at sustaining a long line under tempo pressures. In these passages, I always think of the sound of artists like richter at his best or nyiregyhazi. Only when the melody can float across seemingly endlessly (without interruptions or drooping) do I start to encourage any sense of pressure to move forwards. If a melody can carry at half tempo or less, the pianist really understands voicing. I'd always aim for that first, under as little pressure as possible to do anything other than listen to balance of the melody, before even considering the next spread. Carrying from note to note is easy in a more fluid tempo, but it's also harder to avoid lumps and to sculpt every note. Slow sustain is a superb challenge in itself and the beginning of being able to put onward pressures on while keeping true tonal control. When every note is controlled slowly first, uncontrolled surges with inadequate voicing become painfully obvious. Without, those inexperienced in golden age levels of differentiation tolerate flippant and ordinary voicing very easily. From your recordings, you have fine voicing skills, but I'd want to know that is the case before encouraging any other pianist to move onwards early in the learning.

The ultimate example of this is nyiregyhazi's solo sketching of the rachmaninoff second concerto. After some really rough crap the recap floats melody notes out at insanely slow speeds, as if he's got the sustain of an organist. I've never heard more beautiful piano playing than this. I think all pianists should attempt such effects, before they go on to put any sense of forward pressures on.

[marik1]

Really? I can't say the idea is wrong but I feel it takes phenomenal experience and voicing skill to make onward motion an early priority. For me, slow free time is the way to learn to relate sounds. The fact that melodies easily sag in slow tempo is what makes this practise so valuable. You have both the time to listen in to every sound and the chance to really observe whether the melody carries, in a situation where failures are most easily detected by the ear. If you make notes sound long and sonorous in a leisurely free tempo (with neither dips in sustain nor hard attacks, you can begin to worry about moving along. If it doesn't sustain already in casual tempo, I wouldn't put a trace of pressure on.

I never said anything about putting pressure on the tempo. What I meant, once the tempo will be up to speed there will be much easier to make melodic line flow--exactly what I wrote. That should be a natural evolving.

This is besides the point the tempo in the theme is not that fast, to start with. But of course, one should never underestimate the value of slow practicing, especially for listening the sound, voice leading, etc. I am always for this.

Sorry for the confusion.

Best, M

[nyiregyhazi]

I never said anything about putting pressure on the tempo. What I meant, once the tempo will be up to speed there will be much easier to make melodic line flow--exactly what I wrote. That should be a natural evolving.

This is besides the point the tempo in the theme is not that fast, to start with. But of course, one should never underestimate the value of slow practicing, especially for listening the sound, voice leading, etc. I am always for this.

Sorry for the confusion.

Best, M

. I agree in the sense of making it organic. However, all but  a handful of artists understand quite how much they should demand from themself in terms of voicing, before they are ready to even begin aiming at that final tempo, rather than listening to voicing of each spread and looking for long sustain that carries almost no matter how slow. The tendency of all lesser artists is to move too fast too soon, before the ability to float melody notes as if forever has even begin to develop. I feel that even the most mediocre of players should at least aspire to the sustain and voicing of an artist like Gilels, before the final tempo even comes on to the radar. Nothing less than shooting for the moon produces voicing that truly moves a listener. The only way to assess voicing skills to the full is to see how long your melody notes last when they are having to REALLY last to the max. Early on, the final tempo only hides mediocre voicing, by making it too easy to get away with it. Outrageously slow tempos is where you learn how good your voicing really is and whether your melody carries like the masters would make it carry.

Ps I don't think this way in all melodic writing, but when chords are spread melodic tones should be able to sing out for numerous seconds on end and still connect through. If not, the voicing is just not being done well and should be dealt with first and foremost. I'm sure you do run through such procedures yourself, but I'd never stress the final tempo (even the slowish one here) before mastery of voicing in very slow speeds indeed. Getting to speed first usually sacrifices voicing, unless the pianist is spectacularly accomplished