Introduction and request for advice

[esoteric]

Hello all,
I'm relatively new to the piano scene, but as utterly enthralled and in love with it as any veteran. I began playing about 7 or 8 months ago one day when I was ill and off from school. In my boredom I decided to get out my basic Casio keyboard and start learning a song called "monologue 1" from the infamous film "american psycho". Despite the limitations of my equipment and learning from a synthesia tutorial, I picked it up quite fast, and within a few days had over half the song memorised.
I then began playing on the piano in my schools music room at lunch and break times, consolidating the piece, and soon discovered and began to attempt others. This detracted my focus from "monologue 1", and for over a month it was neglected whilst and began to dabble in bits of other pieces. Then one day, whilst doing some piano related browsing, I stumbled across a little piece called "L'escalier du diable". The very name of the piece, with its allusion to a profound spiritual metaphor captivated  me. I watched the piece being performed by many pianists, but the best rendition I found was one by a young pianist named Yutong Sun. He executed every passage flawlessly, and powerfully conveyed the metaphor as Ligeti intended. Sure enough, I decided to ask a music teacher if he had a copy of the sheet music. He found one, printed it off, and left me in his words to "scare myself silly". I had thought back then that he'd been referring to the sinister tone of the piece, but now looking back I suppose he could just of well have been referring to its complexity...
Anywho, I hadn't known how to read sheet music at the time, and so downloaded a couple of pdfs and learned the basics in about half an hour. Anything I couldn't decipher while studying the sheets I asked the music teacher about, and he happily clued me in. I learned the first stave of the piece and went after school to practice it every day that I wasn't revising for exams. It took a working week just for that, and when I incorporated the second stave in, I was stuck for weeks trying to get it to sound seamless.
One day, when I went after school to bash away at the devils staircase again, the music teacher asked me if I'd be willing to perform a piece at a little concert the school was having. I told him I'd think about it, and pondered what piece I could possibly play. I'd so wished that I was a piano master who could memorise and perfect "L'escalier du diable" in two weeks for the recital and wow the small group, but I was - and still am - a beginner, and didn't have the stamina, skill, knowledge, or even the time to do so. So this is when I decided to revisit "Monologue 1". I'd finished four fifths of the piece before abandoning it in favour of Ligeti's chilling thirteenth etude. I finished up the piece and perfected it, and after enduring a week of anxious, sweaty palmed and fingered anticipation did a good performance at the concert, after which the teacher asked me and a couple of others if we would perform for all the teachers the following morning. I agreed, and did so. I'd felt so proud after doing these performance, I'd felt for the first time like a real pianist.
After this I returned to the devils staircase, stagnating my growth as a pianist for another month before I had to stop practicing because of exam revision, and not having a piano of my own. Now I'm in the middle of a holiday which is likewise slap bang in the middle of my exams. When the holidays began I paled at the thought of not having access to a piano, and again as I contemplated how much more torturous the long summer would be away from one. But I recently discovered that my city library has several practice rooms, and plan to book one out once or twice a week to practice once my exams are finished - so all is not lost.
So that's pretty much my introduction...now onto the advice section...

I would like to ask for some suggestions of intermediate pieces I should learn to develop my skills so that in the future I will be able to learn and perform my dream repertoire - this being: L'escalier du diable by Ligeti, Un sospiro by Liszt, La campanella by Liszt, Liebestraum No. 3 in A flat minor by Liszt, Prelude in G minor by Rachmaninoff, and Apassionata movement 3 by Beethoven. I'm currently planning to learn the long version of "comptine du'n autre ete'" by Yann tiersen, Moonlight sonata movement 1 by Beethoven, a piano version of the star wars "imperial march", composed and transcribed by a fellow by the name of DJ Knighten, and some pretty cool sections from a synthesia medley of the dark knight films soundtrack. Aside from that, I haven't really found much that I like. I have a particular liking for slightly ominous pieces, and ones that convey a lot of passion. Anything bearing any similarity to the pieces in my dream repertoire, in terms of technique, would be much appreciated as it would serve as preparation. All suggestions are welcome, and appreciated.

Thank you

[faulty_damper]

The advice most teachers would give is to work your way up the difficulty ladder.  However, the pieces you want to play won't be helped by this and may, in all likelihood, hinder you.  The reason is due to technical issues that usually aren't included on the lower rungs of the ladder.  It's better to learn those pieces now and as you do so, figure out the best movement combinations that is easiest.  The movements that require the least effort is usually the best.  If, however, after extensive practice, it still feels hard, you're moving your apparatus wrong or not including all possible combinations of movements.  You aren't trying to make music at first but trying to master the movements.

There are specific technical requirements with the pieces you've indicated so if you come across a technical challenge, start a new thread about it.

[hardy_practice]

Had no idea such polite well spoken young people were still being produced.  Good on ya!

[j_menz]

It's better to learn those pieces now

The rate you are losing brain cells is quite disturbing.

@OP - Bach, Two part then three part inventions. Good for now, good for ever.

[esoteric]

@faulty_damper thanks for the advice, but the thing is by attempting these pieces now I'm very likely to sustain an injury due to lack of technique, and waste a lot of time that could otherwise be used building up my repertoire. I would be lying if I said I hadn't considered it though

@hardy_practice thanks very much, I'll agree that they are in short supply, but it just makes those of us who are still around all the more refreshing and valuable I suppose...

@j_menz thanks, I'll have a listen to the pieces and see what I think. I haven't really listened to much Bach before, but I hear many good things about him, so I suppose it won't hurt me to do a bit of research into his compositions.

In regards to the dream repertoire, has anyone ever played any of the pieces specified? If so, or even if not, which of them would you say it would be wisest to attempt first once I'm technically ready?

[faulty_damper]

You're making some incorrect assumptions about technique.  You believe that technique is a step ladder where you work your way up.  It's not.  For example, you could learn all of Bach's inventions and never learn how to play octaves in the most effective manner.  The goal is to be able to play them easily and effortlessly.  It's rare for this to ever occur even for pianists who've been studying more than a decade, as walking through a conservatory can attest to.  Your goal is not to make music, it's to learn how to play the piano easily.

[esoteric]

@faulty_damper Are you sure? Because I feel as by continuing to learn something as difficult as L'escalier du diable I would be stagnating my growth. I am confident in my abilities as a pianist, and  know that someday I will be able to play all the songs. I also know that - as you say - sometimes progression up the ladder of difficulty won't build the technique required for such hard pieces, but won't it help me develop the finger strength and the ability to relax my muscles that I need to play them?

[faulty_damper]

That's why I keep on saying that you must figure out the best combination of movements. Failure to do so will result in over-relying on certain muscles groups which end up tiring out.  And further practice will most likely lead to injury.  This isn't a beginner issue as it happens even at the advanced level.  Again, you're goal isn't to make music but to learn to play the piano.

[esoteric]

@faulty_damper My goal may be to learn the piano, but this is a development of my initial desire to make music. For me, these two goals are one and the same, and cannot - and should not - be separated or differentiated. In regards to ascending the ladder of difficulty, I understand what you're saying, but I don't believe it to be completely true. For instance Turkish March by Mozart is an easier sonata to execute that Apassionata movement three, yet both pieces require similar technique - such as them both having passages in which the player is made to rapidly ascend and descend the keyboard using keys in very close proximity to one another - and so learning Turkish March would prepare me for Apassionata movement three, wouldn't it?
In regards to the Liszt pieces, which involve quick hand movements, arpeggios, octaves etc. - surely learning pieces which involve executing similar movements will aid me when I come to learn these pieces?
Rachmaninoff prelude in G minor involves hitting keys in rapid succession to create a vibrating sound, which is done throughout the piano version of the imperial march, and which I've seen done in other songs at the higher end of the intermediate difficulty. Surely learning them before attempting the prelude would aid me?
As for L'escalier du diable, which requires agility and relaxation of muscles in order to execute, would I not be benefited by learning some easier toccata pieces before hand, so that I can become more familiar with how they work?

I am genuinely asking your thoughts on this, because your advice to proceed with learning these pieces, when most others would dissuade me from doing so at this level, is pretty unusual

[hardy_practice]

You are going to have to find a good (rare) teacher.  The chances of you not having extensive tension problems is very low.  You can learn anything you like but the harder, the less rewarding the process will be.  Is the Ligeti piece to do with Shephard tones?

[lazyfingers]

I am convinced it is the Devil who is persuading you to attempt the Devil's staircase only after 7 or 8 months after starting the piano. Unless I am mistaken to your experience that is.

All I can say is: Don't listen to Faulty advice.

[outin]

I am confident in my abilities as a pianist, and  know that someday I will be able to play all the songs.

It's good to be confident, but in pianism as in any complex skill the learning curve usually means at some point losing that confidence and instead see how much there's to learn to be proficient. The more you know/can the more you understand how much there is that you do not know/can. If you are not prepared for that, you might end up giving up.

You can play one piece after 7-8 months? If you want to play well all the pieces you mention (usually composed by and for highly skilled pianists with decades of experience), you will need to be prepared to work for years. You can try working for months on a few measures, but in the end it will probably take almost as long as it would to build a skill set that enables you to learn them in a reasonable time. And the results would probably only please people not familiar with piano music.

Most people start building the skill set by setting some easier goals first. And get some teaching to help wasting so much time with things that are absolutely not going to work.

But I can totally relate with you. I don't care for much of the standard teaching literature either. But if you really dig deep, you will be able to find pieces that are interesting without jumping right into the hard end of repertoire. Look at the Scarlatti sonatas for example, he wrote about 550 of them, most are quite accessible and there's plenty of variation to suit your personal taste.

[lazyfingers]

@OP, your instincts are correct. Attempting something far beyond your stage of progress will actually hinder rather than help. My advice on this forum particularly is "don't listen to Faulty() advice."

[faulty_damper]

Esoteric,
If you've ever gleaned across numerous videos, you'll notice that some of the pianists don't even have the technique to play Turkish March and other simple pieces even though they sound decent enough.  Thus, playing the piano well and making music can be two different things.  This is something you'll need to understand and why I keep on making this distinction, and why I say you shouldn't view technique as a ladder.  (Don't be too attached to your preconceived notions.)

Technique is best understood in terms of categories.  Each category has different requirements.  However, (and this is where my idea drastically avoids the pitfall of the way most people view it,) each category is a set of movements that all interrelate.  You can sit so high/low, rotate forearm, angle and slant the hand, forearm push/punch, etc.  It's much better to understand technique as combining these motions in the most effective and efficient manner as possible.

But if you view it as a ladder, then each piece you play supposedly gets you up a step.  This simply isn't true as even pianists who can play difficult repertoire still struggle.  They view technique in terms of being able to play X, Y, Z when it's really being able to play X, Y, Z effortlessly.

Anyway, it's your choice.  I told you in the beginning that what I suggest is different from the way most people view it.

[lazyfingers]

Esoteric,
If you've ever gleaned across numerous videos, you'll notice that some of the pianists don't even have the technique to play Turkish March and other simple pieces even though they sound decent enough.

so say you. They have ample technique... so much so.. you don't even recognise.

For those of us who recognise technique, we are still waiting for you to demonstrate your peerless technique.

[esoteric]

@hardy_practice What is nsion? As for a teacher I agree, but because of my age most teachers would want to come to my house as opposed to me coming to theirs. And I do not have a piano at home.

@lazy_fingers Haha believe me, I steer away from his counsel, it tends to lead you astray...

@outin To be fair, playing piano hasn't been my main focus because of exams, and I've abandoned any other pieces I was learning for the last few months in favour of the devils staircase. A boy at my school played what I believe was a Scarlatti sonata at the concert, it was pretty cool, so I'll have a look at his works.

@lazy_fingers and @faulty_damper I think you've lost me faulty, and I can't find the coherence in your argument, though you do raise some valid points, albeit it nestled among a thorny bush of less valid ones...I'm also guessing that lazy thinks somewhat less of your opinions. Embrace each other as piano practitioners, ebony and ivory, the whole friendship and equality message...

[dima_76557]

@ esoteric

I agree with Faulty_damper that the average teacher may "develop" you in a direction that will eventually keep you from achieving your dreams. You really *have to* learn something about piano playing as such, not linked directly to this or that particular piece.

If you feel you are up to learning the notes of those pieces, combining the hands, choreography of it all, etc. (forget about ultimate tempo and musical requirements for the time being), I'd suggest you contact Faulty through PM for guidance.

There are tutorials available on YouTube (Paul Barton's channel, for example) for most of your dream repertoire, but since everybody's physical parameters are quite unique, personal attention to your particular case by a person who has gone through the repertoire him/herself will most likely be indispensable.

Good luck!

[lazyfingers]

@lazy_fingers Haha believe me, I steer away from his counsel, it tends to lead you astray...

Whew!.... wiping my brow.. at least I've got somewhere!

@lazy_fingers and @faulty_damper I think you've lost me faulty, and I can't find the coherence in your argument, though you do raise some valid points, albeit it nestled among a thorny bush of less valid ones...I'm also guessing that lazy thinks somewhat less of your opinions. Embrace each other as piano practitioners, ebony and ivory, the whole friendship and equality message...

Me think somewhat less of Faulty's opinions? Hmmm... you think?

[esoteric]

@lazy_fingers I have a sense for these things, what can I say. You don't happen to have one of those forum blood feuds going on do you, because it seems I always walk into the middle of those

@dima_76557I agree with @faulty_damper in that sense too, but I'm just not quite getting exactly what he's saying, I'll DM him and ask him. As for that last point, that's exactly what I'm looking for, because I don't personally know any pianists who have played any songs at such a high level.

[hardy_practice]

Tension!

[esoteric]

@hardy_practice yeahhh thats what I thought you meant 

[dima_76557]

As for that last point, that's exactly what I'm looking for, because I don't personally know any pianists who have played any songs at such a high level.

YouTube has both global search features (piece + tutorial) and search features within a person's profile in the "video" section of that person's profile. Here are a couple of examples:

search?query=un+sospiro

[ Invalid YouTube link ]+tutorial

Sometimes the word "analysis" combined with the name of a certain piece may also give you valuable and interesting results, as for example with this harmonic analysis of the Un Sospiro (basic knowledge of how chords are formed is a must to do anything with it, of course, and there is always the risk of mistakes here and there):

[lazyfingers]

@lazy_fingers I have a sense for these things, what can I say. You don't happen to have one of those forum blood feuds going on do you, because it seems I always walk into the middle of those

No. There is no "blood feud". I don't often respond ... only to the more egregious post regardless of who posts. On this forum, it just so happens that only one person has particularly idiotic views.

[outin]

 I agree with @faulty_damper in that sense too, but I'm just not quite getting exactly what he's saying, I'll DM him and ask him. As for that last point, that's exactly what I'm looking for, because I don't personally know any pianists who have played any songs at such a high level.

Faulty does have some point, there's the possibility that you may end up with a teacher who will teach you ineffective things and/or kill your innovative instincts and motivation to learn. Unfortunately these days Faulty backs every claim up with a delusional idea that none of the respected and famous pianists have proper technique and don't understand the music either. Since most of us amateurs would be ecstatic to have a fraction of the technique those pianists have and really enjoy their interpretations, we don't really take him very seriously anymore.

But it would still be worth to try to get some teaching IMO. You are old enough to make decisions and change teachers if it doesn't seem right. I did that and ended up with someone who has helped me stay motivated and gain such tools and skills I never imagined I'd get in just under 3 years with limited practice time. She is flexible enough, but not in the wrong way (not letting me get away with things that are not right). No method books but mostly pieces I choose myself and expecially in the beginning some pieces she thinks I need. Technical work like scales when I feel up to it, not as a practice routine that would be sure to kill my spirit.

Is it really that difficult to find teachers who have a teaching studio where you live? Here it's the opposite, almost no experienced and qualified teacher would come to the students place to teach.

[esoteric]

Dima_ogorodnikov thanks for those videos, I'll check them out.

@lazyfingers well that good to know, it seems these things are universal in the realm of forums

@outin yeah I also enjoy professional interpretations and recognise their skill, there is nothing for me to question about it tbh. I will keep on looking for teachers in my area, I'm just wary about some of these come to my studio types if you catch my drift...one teacher had a minimum age of 17 on his webstie, and honestly it seemed a tad strange, what reason could he have for that?

[outin]

I will keep on looking for teachers in my area, I'm just wary about some of these come to my studio types if you catch my drift...

Honestly I don't get what's to be wary about? Why would a teacher rather go to people's homes with possible bad teaching conditions, if they have the opportunity to work in a professional setting, where they are also in charge of the condition of the instrument (often they have two, which is good).

[esoteric]

@outin whats to be wary about my friend is perverted piano teachers. You hear stories that make you a bit anxious

[outin]

@outin whats to be wary about my friend is perverted piano teachers. You hear stories that make you a bit anxious

 

That would be funny if it wasn't so sad what the media is doing to people...making them absolutely paranoid. 

Don't take all the stories you hear too seriously. Why would you think perverted piano teachers would be more common than any other professionals you go to?

[esoteric]

@outin You make a valid point, you're more likely to be assaulted by some doctor or nurse than a piano teacher, and if your really worried you could bring someone along to sit in. I'll keep looking for a teacher then.

[hfmadopter]

@outin You make a valid point, you're more likely to be assaulted by some doctor or nurse than a piano teacher, and if your really worried you could bring someone along to sit in. I'll keep looking for a teacher then.

You could run a pole here at PS: Have you ever Been Assaulted or Molested by your piano teacher. Most of us here have had teachers, some several, some long term with just one or two etc. Some go to schools etc. I think you will find that non  have been any of the above, except maybe one or two that were brow beaten.

 When I was a kid I took accordion lessons in a school of music. For 30 minutes I was closed in this little music room with a guy in his mid twenties or so. His concern was my getting technique and of course even back then, counting, as we tell so many people about here. Never a problem, except that back then AC was not popular, so it got hot and humid in there in the summer. Winter was much better. Most good teachers are very dedicated to their students learning piano !

[dima_76557]

@outin whats to be wary about my friend is perverted piano teachers. You hear stories that make you a bit anxious

You are lucky, esoteric; there are tutorials for everything on YouTube: from how-to-kick-someone-in-the-nuts tutorials to wrist- and other (very nasty) joint-locks, top 5 most devastating strikes, etc. etc.

[chopinlover01]

This is why people should learn a martial art XD Or go to a pure combatives school for a free lesson, or just box for a little bit. Ears, eyes, groin, neck, front knee cap, outside quadricepts, etc. Are great targets. Oh and just take the wrist and start a 360 circle with it, the whole body follows.
Well I've had too much Judo, Kali and Aikijujutsu clearly.

[faulty_damper]

If you want to know why I can't say any of these famous pianists had the effortless technique I refer to, this is why:

If you've ever watched bicycle racing, you'll notice that ALL of the cyclists pedal/ride their bikes in a very similar fashion.  But near the end of the race when they are tired, all of their form turns to mush.  Commentators describe it as "battling their bikes," "working to get the pedals turned over," etc.  Now, if you paid attention to the 2012 Tour de France, in a peloton of nearly 200 riders, you'll notice only one whom did not ride the same way.  This rider was not the strongest rider.  He wasn't the fastest rider.  He wasn't even the lightest rider.  In fact, he could do nothing exceptionally well except time trial.  When others were struggling, he looked like he was floating.  His bike was floating, too.

Why?

Because he did what no other cyclist did to the extremes he and his coaches did: he trained to save energy.  A lot of people think cycling is about brute strength, power, and endurance, all of which requires a lot of energy.  Many cyclists think the same way, too, and train for it that way.  However, at this elite level, the difference between the best riders is often described as less than 1%.  You win or lose on less than a 1% difference.  Instead of just training for that power, he trained to be more efficient.  He spent time in a wind tunnel optimizing an aerodynamic position that saved the most energy.  His coaches calculated he was saving around 100-200 calories per race.  So over the course of 2000 miles, he was using far less energy than anyone else.  In races, he never made poorly calculated moves that would drain him, especially when he was attacked numerous times while wearing the yellow jersey (the leader's jersey.)  He simply kept his pace, let the other riders use up their energy, and saved his.

This principal of saving energy also applies to piano playing.  People equate fast+loud=difficult, and they equate difficult with lots of energy.  If you look at nearly all pianists, this is definitely true: they spend a lot of energy playing fast+loud.  You can see it in their sweat while they play and they are exhausted at the end.   But if the goal is to use the motions that depress the keys with the least amount of energy, then you won’t be sweating and you won’t be exhausted.  And if you find the motions that use almost no energy, playing will be effortless.  

There was only one rider of out nearly 200 in the 2012 Tour de France who was riding to save energy.  He wasn’t the most interesting rider to look at; he wasn’t grunting, grimacing, or out of breath.  He didn’t try to out-race any of the other competitors.  He was very elegant to watch.  But in a sport that glorifies strength, power, and aggression, it would have been easy to dismiss him as a weakling and you would never have thought he was in any way a contender.  Bradley Wiggins eventually went on to win the 2012 Tour de France.  He just recently won the 2014 Tour of California using the same training strategy: save energy, not use it.

[esoteric]

@faulty_damper your argument seems much more coherent thanks to that analogy. I understand that its unorthodox practice designed for efficiency that is more successful. In attempting the devils staircase I was planning to leap through stave by stave until I'd conquered it, I didn't give it much care, didn't practice playing the simultaneous octaves that comprise much of the piece separately. I think if I approach the piece with more care, I could stand a better chance of learning and mastering it in a shorter span of time. But I'm not going to devote all of the little practice time I get to it anymore and stagnate my growth and stunt the growth of my repertoire. I'll learn it bit by bit, concurrently with "comptine du'n autre ete'".

@chopinlover01 I was thinking of starting jiu jitsu anyway tbh, so now I've got a potential scenario where I might be able to practice some moves

@dima_76557thank God for tutorials!!

@hfmadopter err but if I were to start such a poll, who is honestly gonna come out on here and say they've been assaulted by a piano teacher man? People have a tendency to keep that stuff to themselves.

[hfmadopter]

@hfmadopter err but if I were to start such a poll, who is honestly gonna come out on here and say they've been assaulted by a piano teacher man? People have a tendency to keep that stuff to themselves.

That was rather tongue in cheek anyway ! More to the point, if you get a competent teacher I don't think they are looking to molest or damage their student and wreck their own reputation. Most studied long and hard to be where they are at. Don't get some weed smoking college kid who started a major in music and flopped to liberal arts and tries to teach piano to make a few bucks to support his habit, you should be fine. You get back what you put out in this world generally speaking, put out some faith and trust then. You capitalized God in your message above, if he is real to you work through that channel, it can be an amazing thing.

Marshal arts: I don't know about that. At work a lot of years ago we had two particular individuals working warehouse duty there. One took marshal arts and became a brown belt. The other was street wise, the street wise guy was also a bit larger FWIW. Anyway, something went down and the two ended up confronting each other physically. The marshal arts guy tried some screeching hoy chonk move on the other guy, the street guy halled off clocked him right between the eyes and the marshal arts guy went down flat on his back. After being helped up he ran to the owner, who promptly told him he better go get his money back on the marshal arts training and get out of my office. Absolutely true story. Point is, you have to be more than just trained in that stuff, you have to be in shape and in full practice of it as well. It's a life stye, not a part time weapon. Besides that, I seriously doubt anyone needs any of it to defend themselves from the piano teacher anyway.

[esoteric]

@hfmadopter First of all, you're funny! XD
I'll put out some faith then, yes God is very real to me, and I'm sure he'll steer me away from some of the more unsavoury teachers out there. I actual have a couple idea's for some religious/philosophical dante's divine comedy-esque piano compositions..

I know what you're saying. Often people become adept in a martial art and think themselves invincible. When I get time I'll be working out at the gym again too, so with the combination of fitness and martial arts prowess I think I'll be able to overpower any weirdo's that come my way. Yeah, generally though as you say, piano teachers aren't a very dangerous bunch (although, they could easily strangle you with the strength from those corded forearms...).

[faulty_damper]

You should not be learning how to play the notes when you play the piano.  You should be learning how to play the keys.  If it were a silent piano/keyboard, all the better since you won't be distracted by the sound.

[saichoo]

But if you view it as a ladder, then each piece you play supposedly gets you up a step.  This simply isn't true as even pianists who can play difficult repertoire still struggle.  They view technique in terms of being able to play X, Y, Z when it's really being able to play X, Y, Z effortlessly.

faulty_damper, this is fascinating. From where or whom did you learn this approach? How can I find out more about it?

[chopinlover01]

martial arts*
Trust me I know. The martial art world or more specifically combatives world is just as vast if not more so than the music world. There are a lot of places called Mcdojos, which just suck your money with yearly contracts and stuff.
Also, OP, stay away from Brazilian Jujutsu if you can, as it doesnt deal well with more than one person. While you're on the ground armbar-ing him the other guy kicks you in the head.
Yes, you have to be street smart, but martial training is superior in it's core, as it was originated to kill people, not just for spiritual development. Oh, and OP Japanese Jujutsu is great though if you find a good school.
Also it's generally the artist, not the art.
Email me at harrisonrichter01@gmail.com if you want to talk more ^^

[faulty_damper]

faulty_damper, this is fascinating. From where or whom did you learn this approach? How can I find out more about it?

I learned it from years of getting it wrong, from years of thinking the same way, from years of struggling, trying everything and copying every famous pianists' technique, learning from better pianists at school, from reading numerous technique books, and so on.  And then, after all of these things failed, I saw Marc-Andre Hamelin play difficult pieces so easily and effortlessly and that's when the idea came to me that maybe playing the piano isn't about force, speed, strength... maybe playing the piano really is as effortless as he made it look.  Long story short, that's when things started changing as I started using more efficient movements.  Things that I thought were difficult were suddenly much less.  And as I learned more about what my playing apparatus could do, new possibilities appeared and it got even easier.  I could show other pianists at school and they could play better, so I was certain it wasn't just unique to me.  (Although some of the solutions to technical issues were so unique that one of the piano professors knew I had taught some of her students, got angry at me, and told her students not to play that way.  Which of course just made it more difficult for them.  LOL)

[esoteric]

@faulty_damper Your argument is becoming more and more coherent faulty, I'll try and adopt this approach and see how it goes.

@chopinlover01 Yeah, japanese is the one for me. Brazilian jiu jitsu is hyped these days but in my eyes an art thats 100% grappling is pretty ineffective. There is a class at the college I'll soon be attending every week, so soon it will begin.

[esoteric]

Went into school today, first time back at a piano for over a week, absolute bliss

[faulty_damper]

Here's a further explanation of the repertoire ladder vs. kinesthetic movement (or whatever I called it earlier).  You can depress a single key thus:

1. moving finger
2. dropping hand (door knocking motion)
3. dropping forearm
4. rotating forearm
5. forearm push (may require some 2 and 3)
6. forearm pull (may also requires some 2 and 3)
7. wrist drop
8. hand chop

If you only relied on finger movement (1), you're fingers will eventually tire.  This is the way most pianists play and yet there are 7 other motions to depress a key.  If you combine some of the movements, such as 1, 2, 3, the force is distributed across a large number of muscle groups which makes it much easier.  Of these three motions, the hand drop (2) seems to be the least used motion as many pianists have stiff wrists.

Here are some other possible combinations to depress a single key:
a) 4, 7 - rotation, wrist drop
b) 3, 4 - forearm drop, rotation
c) 1, 7 - finger, wrist drop
d) 1, 8 - finger, hand chop
e) 1, 4, 8 - finger, rotation, hand chop (Liszt's La Campanella, RH leaps)
f) 1, 4, 7 - finger, rotation, wrist drop (extremely useful in Chopin Op.10-2)

There are more possible combinations.  If you learn these motions, you'll figure out pretty quickly how they apply in context when more keys are depressed.  Playing a single C major scale, for example, will cycle through a number of combinations (as well as alignment motions not mentioned above.)  Relying solely on finger movement (1) will result in tired fingers and require practice for the rest of your life.

[outin]

If you only relied on finger movement (1), you're fingers will eventually tire.  This is the way most pianists play and yet there are 7 other motions to depress a key. 

Really? I see them use all kinds of motions. Usually the better the pianist the smaller the motions, so not always so easily visible.

I cannot tell about other teachers, but mine has never instructed me to move ONLY the fingers.

[faulty_damper]

Really? I see them use all kinds of motions. Usually the better the pianist the smaller the motions, so not always so easily visible.

There are some pianists who move a lot but it isn't functional. These movements are done before or after the fact so it looks like they are very fluid.  However, in terms of actually depressing the keys, the movements are very limited.

[outin]

There are some pianists who move a lot but it isn't functional. These movements are done before or after the fact so it looks like they are very fluid.  However, in terms of actually depressing the keys, the movements are very limited.

?? I thought I just said most movements are nearly visible, so obviously I am not talking about pianists who move a lot... But I guess we see quite differently.

[dima_76557]

8. hand chop

Aha, for the high F in Chopin's second Scherzo, right?

[esoteric]

@Faulty_damper Good news, I've found and contacted a teacher who is very experienced and who's studio is sinfully close to my house . If all things go well I should be learning with him in the next couple months.

I am currently learning 3:42 to 6:48 and 6:49 to 8:19 of this dark knight trilogy medley:

alongside comptine d'un autre ete'
Check it out, I think its pretty cool

[faulty_damper]

Aha, for the high F in Chopin's second Scherzo, right?

It's a hand waving motion where the hand moves from side to side like a chop.

[faulty_damper]

?? I thought I just said most movements are nearly visible, so obviously I am not talking about pianists who move a lot... But I guess we see quite differently.

As a rule, all motions are visible even if they are very small.  If it's so small you can't see it, it didn't happen.  This is a linguistic issue since you can hypothetically describe such things that don't exist.