Secondary Dominants

[theholygideons]

I'm reading Arnold Schoenberg's Theory of Harmony, and I've hit a road block. The writing is just too dense for me to comprehend in its entirety. 

My question, are secondary dominants basically just short, fleeting modulations. Therefore, do they have to be treated as a modulation would be treated, i.e. using a neutral chord before it. It gets so complicated, since he treats them as dominants of the church modes.

Also, after the secondary dominant, is it always the tonic of that dominant, or can other chords be used.

Thanks.!

[Bob]

No prep that I remember.  Use them as you want.  It's just another chord, farther away/more chromatic than diatonic chords.  V/V vs. ii    Either one is ok if it fits.


There's tonicization too, temporary tonicization. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonicization
Not looking into it now.  I don't remember if that needs a full set up... But if it does, I'd think of it as a modulation.  I never quite bought tonicization -- If you switch keys, you switch keys.  The amount of time doesn't matter so much. 

Mother always said, "If you keep tonicizing like that, you're tonality's going to stay that way."

[theholygideons]

Hey Bobs your uncle,

So if I'm in C major, and I use a secondary dominant, does that mean i'm still in C major, unless I actually wanted to modulate?
Also, say I'm in C major, and I used a II chord followed by V/V, would that be allowed, even though it's not a neutral chord of G major so to speak? 

Thanks

[Bob]

You're weakening the tonality. That's for sure.

I think you have to do more to establish tonality.  Hit the new tonal center with another V I.

So....
C:  I V/V V I      <--- D is a secondary dominant.

C: I V/V V vi I V
  G:IV V I  ii V I      <--- Now it's moved to a different key.



Not quite following.... II is the V/V.   A Major II chord/raised 4th step.


I'm blanking on what a theory prof said was needed to modulate.  vs. temporary tonicization.  Supposed to be as smooth as possible and share a common chord I remember.  And it's probably always a grey area.  I think the extra V I in a new key after the initial 'secondary dominant if seen from the original key' will drill a new tonal center into the ear of the listener.




If it's just V/V to V by itself, the function has stayed the same in the original key.  ii V  vs.  V/V V... same function.  Just more pull toward the V.  


Browsing around...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonicization
https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/tonicization/  
-- I call BS on "10 seconds centering around a new key means you're in that new key."

Looks kind of interesting...
https://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/showthread.php?11930-Tonicization-not-secondary-dominant-chord


https://www.utexas.edu/courses/mus612b/fmain/mainglos.html
"Tonicization Tonicization is a process that temporarily allows a chord other than the tonic to function as a goal of motion or point of stability, and therefore, function as a temporary tonic. A chord is said to be "tonicized," when it is preceded by its own dominant, dominant seventh, seven chord, or diminished seventh. That is, the dominant determined by the key of the chord. Tonicization is a local event, unlike modulation, which implies establishing a new key center and continuing in the new key. Any chord, except VII, in a major key can be preceded by its own dominant. Any chord in the natural minor, except II, can be preceded by its own dominant."


So basically, point at it and stay in the original key... temporary tonicization.  If you focus too much on the new key (with another V I in the new key), you're modulating.  I would think the listener could hear a temporary tonicization as being in the new or old key.  Depends on them.  It's making the original key less stable/forced on their ears.

[Bob]

Also, say I'm in C major, and I used a II chord followed by V/V, would that be allowed, even though it's not a neutral chord of G major so to speak? 

Oh, I think I see.

C:  ii V/V  V  ?        d D G?

Function still looks the same.  If it sounds ok.  The F# in D is going to stand out I would think.  The harmonic movement is going to be sitting on D longer -- d minor, D Major, but still D.  If that makes the harmonic rhythm sound weird.

[theholygideons]

Crikey, thanks!
so tell me about yourself.