The healthy way.

[crazy_diamond]

Greetings, I play piano for about three months now, and before that, I played piano pieces on a 5-octaves-organ for about half a year. I was pumping out lots of knoledge about note reading from a friend and the internet. Never been taught by a teacher though. Today I can play things like Chopin's nocturne ( Op. 9 No. 2 , Op. 55 No. 1...), or Beethoven's Pathethqie Sonate ( 1st & 2nd movements - was the first piece I ever attempted to play. Dont shoot!  ) along other stuff. See, the thing is, that every time I encounter a new piece, I feel the need to ask my self weather I am doing it right? Healthy?
The course of learning a nocturne is this:
Struggling with the notes to get out the whole escort. Playing the melody couple of times, see where the decorations are , and catch it by heart. Then combining them, I do not need the sheet music, and when thinking about the escort... I sort of play it intuitive. Like the piece is just engraved in me. There is no chance I'll just see the piece and start to play it. Is this way right? Is it health? Am I developing my self here, or just learning to play single pieces?

Thanks.

[bernhard]

This is a hugely inefficient way to learn the piano.

Imagine you are illiterate, but you have a computer at home, and you decide to type some short stories. But you cannot read, so you open the book and laboriously try to find the letters in the keyboard that correspond to the letters in the page.

Keep doing it this way and you will not even be a good typist!

Music has many parallels with language. Like language, it is highly patterned, it has “words” and “sentences” and “paragraphs” and whole meaningful “texts”. Concentrating as you are on the “letters” and on typing will ensure that you never rise above mediocrity and that you never truly understand the “meaning” of music.

I suggest – if you cannot/do not want to get a teacher – that you start studying “music” rather than “piano playing”, and that you use the piano to play the music, because right now you seem to be using the music to play the piano.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[crazy_diamond]

Huh??? ... 

I didn't quite understand the last part of your answer as something related to my question. True, my question is  about the studying of the piano, not the music but I am motivated only by the music, and it is also what I am focusing on as you can understand from my piost right now.  I study jazz guitar for about 5 years now, so I am all the time studying about music. My question is about mastering a tool, yes. I guess it is really written in a very confused and vague way. So hear is the question:
Will prety much memorizing the notes more or less visually, after translating from the sheets, will advance my sight reading? Which is a nessecary skillin order to master the using of the tool which you are going to produce music with.. bah.


I just dont see how this question suggests that I have no interest in music, while in piano playing...
Thanks for the comment though! 

[Daniel_piano]

This is a hugely inefficient way to learn the piano.

Hey Bernhard could you please tell your opinion about the method I use to learn a piece (so far it has worked good)

I just sightread the whole piece hands separate and mark with a pencil all those bars where I need to do some works because there's some technique involved I didn't already mastered (efficient movements, speed, coordination, rhythm and so on)
When my piece (200 bars long) with all its "hard spots" marked I just forget about the whole piece and I focus only on those spots that I marked
I work alternating everi 120 seconds or less left hand and right hand using different method and tricks until the spot is mastered
When all the HS spots are perfect I sightread again the piece, this time hands together, and I mark those spots I have problem with hand togethers
Then I forget again the whole piece and practice only those spots I marked alternating HS and HT working on moviments, using rhythm variation and speed variations
When all HS and HT marked spots are all perfectly marked, I'm confident that there's nothing left in the piece that would make me struggle and I start working on "performing" the whole piece and perfecting the expression and tone
Basically 70% of the bars of the piece is not even practice, but they were bars that were already perfect after 6 repetitions and so I decided to focus only on those problematic spots in the piece
I've noticed that I used to pass sometimes 2 weeks on a piece repeating over and over and always making the same mistakes
I realized that only 2 bars  were ruining the whole piece so when I started focusing only on learning those two bars the whole piece was perfect without practicing it in its whole anymore

The good point of this is that I don't have 4 or 5 pieces to practice but just 20 bars
By focusing only on the marked problematic spots of the pieces, learning 5 pieces is no like learning 40 pages but just a dozen of bars

I even sometimes rewrite only the marked parts and practice only them as if they were my new piece completely forgetting about the original source
it works as well

Any thought or comment Bernhard ?

Thanks
Daniel

[bernhard]

Huh??? ... 

Will prety much memorizing the notes more or less visually, after translating from the sheets, will advance my sight reading? Which is a nessecary skillin order to master the using of the tool which you are going to produce music with.. bah.

I was not saying or implying that you have no interest in music.

However, it is very common amongst piano students, to become so obsessed with certain technical (= physical) aspects of piano playing that they soon forget what it was all about in the first place.

Now to answer your question.

No, memorising the notes visually is not the best way to go about it (although it is not impossible). The best way to go about it is actually to forget about the notes, and concentrate instead on the intervals between the notes. It is very similar to the process of reading a text. If you read each letter it takes forever. A good reader reads and recognises words, and a superlative reader may take in whole sentences and paragraphs. But in order to do that, you must master the language: you have to have a superb vocabulary, and you must have thoroughly mastered sentence structure and syntax. A big problem that children face when learning to read is that they are unable to recognise many words, simply because their vocabulary is not large enough.

Likewise in music. The better acquainted you are with musical motives (= words) and patterns, as well as the way these structure themselves in musical phrases, the easier your sight-reading will become. Hence my suggestion that you should concentrate on music and its meaning. If you have studied guitar for five years, you should probably know what I am talking about. However, you had not mentioned it in your original post, so I answered under the assumption that you had been playing the piano for three months without a teacher.

Since you studied guitar, it may help you if I tell you that a piano score is actually the equivalent of guitar tablature: the piano score actually tells you literally where to put your fingers. Read more about it here:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5090.msg48850.html#msg48850
( the score is tabs for the piano)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1871.msg14384.html#msg14384
(Reading notation –  Richmann’s book – Cambridge word scramble example)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1976.msg15962.html#msg15962
(Sight reading – Richmann’s book)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2406.msg20820.html#msg20820
(the grand staff)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2577.msg22247.html#msg22247
(Keyboard topography – how to find notes by touch)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2713.msg23282.html#msg23282
(Teaching bass clef –  the grand staff)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2751.msg23710.html#msg23710
(detailed explanation of the sight-reading process)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3205.msg28255.html#msg28255
(how not to look at the keys – Richmann’s reviews)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3334.msg29381.html#msg29381
(Reading both staffs as a single grand staff - Reasons for working on scales - Detailed discussion of Richmann’s book)


https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5090.msg48850.html#msg48850
(Bernhard explains that the score is tabs for)

Best wishes,
Bernhard

[bernhard]

Hey Bernhard could you please tell your opinion about the method I use to learn a piece (so far it has worked good)

I just sightread the whole piece hands separate and mark with a pencil all those bars where I need to do some works because there's some technique involved I didn't already mastered (efficient movements, speed, coordination, rhythm and so on)
When my piece (200 bars long) with all its "hard spots" marked I just forget about the whole piece and I focus only on those spots that I marked
I work alternating everi 120 seconds or less left hand and right hand using different method and tricks until the spot is mastered
When all the HS spots are perfect I sightread again the piece, this time hands together, and I mark those spots I have problem with hand togethers
Then I forget again the whole piece and practice only those spots I marked alternating HS and HT working on moviments, using rhythm variation and speed variations
When all HS and HT marked spots are all perfectly marked, I'm confident that there's nothing left in the piece that would make me struggle and I start working on "performing" the whole piece and perfecting the expression and tone
Basically 70% of the bars of the piece is not even practice, but they were bars that were already perfect after 6 repetitions and so I decided to focus only on those problematic spots in the piece
I've noticed that I used to pass sometimes 2 weeks on a piece repeating over and over and always making the same mistakes
I realized that only 2 bars  were ruining the whole piece so when I started focusing only on learning those two bars the whole piece was perfect without practicing it in its whole anymore

The good point of this is that I don't have 4 or 5 pieces to practice but just 20 bars
By focusing only on the marked problematic spots of the pieces, learning 5 pieces is no like learning 40 pages but just a dozen of bars

I even sometimes rewrite only the marked parts and practice only them as if they were my new piece completely forgetting about the original source
it works as well

Any thought or comment Bernhard ?

Thanks
Daniel

Yes! That is it!

By concentrating on the passages that are difficult (for you) you acquire the technique to paly the whole piece. Therefore, concentrate on the (small and few) difficult passages, and you will save absurd amopunts of time. Of course, you will have to practise the easy bits as well, but not as much and not so intensively. In fact, by doing the difficult bits first of all you are automatically saving time on the easy bits, since after the difficult bits being mastered, the easy bits will be even easier!

You may also find that it is not necessary to do the whole piece HS first (but then again it may). My own approach is very similar to yours, except that my first sight reading is with hands together, and I will only do hands separate if necessary (yes, sometimes it is necessary to do the whole piece hands separate). This may save even more time.

Keep up the good work!

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Daniel_piano]

Yes! That is it!

By concentrating on the passages that are difficult (for you) you acquire the technique to paly the whole piece. Therefore, concentrate on the (small and few) difficult passages, and you will save absurd amopunts of time.

Thanks
Glad to know I'm practicing the "healthy way"

Of course, you will have to practise the easy bits as well, but not as much and not so intensively.

Just one thing, and this could be also usefull to Crazy_Diamond
Do you think I can "skip" the practice of the easy bits after having mastered all the hard bits just by playing whole piece or do you think is it better to apply "spot by post" practice to the easy as well after having mstered the hard bits?
Usually after I've mastered the hard bits I can play the whole piece evenly and without errors even in I haven't "literally" practiced the easy bits so at this point I just "perform" the whole piece many times and practice the easy bits in this way without focusing on them

Thanks
Daniel

[bernhard]

Thanks
Glad to know I'm practicing the "healthy way"



Just one thing, and this could be also usefull to Crazy_Diamond
Do you think I can "skip" the practice of the easy bits after having mastered all the hard bits just by playing whole piece or do you think is it better to apply "spot by post" practice to the easy as well after having mstered the hard bits?
Usually after I've mastered the hard bits I can play the whole piece evenly and without errors even in I haven't "literally" practiced the easy bits so at this point I just "perform" the whole piece many times and practice the easy bits in this way without focusing on them

Thanks
Daniel

Yes, by all means skip the easy bits - as long you can play them well without spot practice. Spot practice is for the stuff you cannot handle straightaway.

Sometimes I pick up a new piece and sight read it to see what are the spots that need more work on, and to my surprise, I can play it perfectly well straightaway. If this happens, then that is it. The only thing left to do is to memorise it , but I rearely do that at the piano anyway.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[mound]

 A good reader reads and recognises words, and a superlative reader may take in whole sentences and paragraphs. But in order to do that, you must master the language: you have to have a superb vocabulary, and you must have thoroughly mastered sentence structure and syntax.

Totally off topic, but that comment reminded me of those "speed reading" courses you hear about on TV (well, here in the US we used to see them advertised late night, forgive me if you are unfamiliar) - basically it was a method for learning to read whole pages of books with full retention at incredible speeds.   I wonder first, if those "methods" were completely worthless ( I always dismissed it as a hoax) or if they are somehow grounded in concepts similar to what you describe above.

(sorry for off-topic)
-Paul

[bernhard]

Totally off topic, but that comment reminded me of those "speed reading" courses you hear about on TV (well, here in the US we used to see them advertised late night, forgive me if you are unfamiliar) - basically it was a method for learning to read whole pages of books with full retention at incredible speeds.   I wonder first, if those "methods" were completely worthless ( I always dismissed it as a hoax) or if they are somehow grounded in concepts similar to what you describe above.

(sorry for off-topic)
-Paul

Yes, it is the same principle, and it is no hoax: it works.

[Daniel_piano]

Talking about "the healthy way" and speed
Would be "spot speed practice" a good strategy for reaching final speed
That would be like taking half a bar and bring it up at speed
The taking another half bar and bringinng it at speed
Since the spot chosen is very small in a matter of 70 seconds the spot should be easily at speed
So the only work that remain to be done is connecting all the spot aka the patchwork

I'm sure that even in this case "spot speed practice" could be skipped in many bars
Not only because many bars are straighaway at speed but also because by "spot speed practicing" few bars you get the technique/movement speed for all other bars

Is this a healthy way Bernhard?

Daniel

[bernhard]

Talking about "the healthy way" and speed
Would be "spot speed practice" a good strategy for reaching final speed
That would be like taking half a bar and bring it up at speed
The taking another half bar and bringinng it at speed
Since the spot chosen is very small in a matter of 70 seconds the spot should be easily at speed
So the only work that remain to be done is connecting all the spot aka the patchwork

I'm sure that even in this case "spot speed practice" could be skipped in many bars
Not only because many bars are straighaway at speed but also because by "spot speed practicing" few bars you get the technique/movement speed for all other bars

Is this a healthy way Bernhard?

Daniel

Yes. Provided you “overlap” the sections. If you do not overlap stuttering will be a certainty. Overlapping is incredibly underrated and overlooked. In my opinion. 90% of the power of repeated note groups is simply due to the staggering amount of overlapping.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.