A few questions about Bernhard's/Chang's method for piano practice

[benjammin]

Hello everyone  I'm a new user but have been an avid reader of old forum posts for a long time. I was particularly interested in the writings of a user by the name Bernhard that was active on these forums around 9-10 years ago. It seems that he is not active anymore and I hope he's alright wherever he is.

Anyway: Bernhard wrote quite a lot of posts regarding practicing and acquiring technique based on Chang's book: "Fundamentals of piano practice" and other books and research which I haven't checked yet. I studied those posts thoroughly and recommend them to everyone who would like to improve their technique or struggles with some pieces. I started applying the methods and am quite happy with the results BUT I have some questions that bother me some. That's why I'm posting here. Is anyone here faimiliar with the methods and uses them? I'd really be happy if you could try to answer a few questions.

 

[nyiregyhazi]

Hello everyone  I'm a new user but have been an avid reader of old forum posts for a long time. I was particularly interested in the writings of a user by the name Bernhard that was active on these forums around 9-10 years ago. It seems that he is not active anymore and I hope he's alright wherever he is.

Anyway: Bernhard wrote quite a lot of posts regarding practicing and acquiring technique based on Chang's book: "Fundamentals of piano practice" and other books and research which I haven't checked yet. I studied those posts thoroughly and recommend them to everyone who would like to improve their technique or struggles with some pieces. I started applying the methods and am quite happy with the results BUT I have some questions that bother me some. That's why I'm posting here. Is anyone here faimiliar with the methods and uses them? I'd really be happy if you could try to answer a few questions.

 

Why not start by actually asking them?

[benjammin]

They are quite specific so I guess only someone familiar with the topic should be able to answer them.

But no harm done by asking away I guess.

The first two and most important questions are these two (which require a bit of an introduction): The method suggests that I take a passage of an appropriate size and try playing it at maximum possible speed (performance speed or higher) to figure out which movements would work at that speed. I am supposed to try playing that passage 7 times and if I get it right at least once then the passage is of an appropriate size for practice (If not i cut it in half and repeat the process). At this stage I am supposed to slow down those movements that worked for high speed and practice them slower and apparently speed them up to the final speed or above (Did I understand this part right?). When I master that I move on to the next passage.

Now my questions are:

-What if I can't actually get the section back up to speed and consistently play it at the max speed in the suggested practice time (15-20min)? Am I playing the wrong motions/movements? Or is the passage apparently too big?

[benjammin]

I kind of found the answers to my own questions by searching the forums even more and stumbling upon this topic which is sort of a shortened guide with some unanswered questions being answered (https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,5298.msg50376.html#msg50376). For those who might be interested in the details will have to explore a lot since the method and everything that goes with it is quite fragmented over a dozen different threads. This thread though (https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=5083.msg48411#msg48411) got me started since Bernhard himself answered and compiled a few links to some other threads which contain links to others and so on  Anyway: I highly suggest this material to everyone who's interested in understanding and improving their techinque.

Bernhard, wherever you are, thanks for being awesome and sharing all of this 

[nyiregyhazi]

They are quite specific so I guess only someone familiar with the topic should be able to answer them.

But no harm done by asking away I guess.

The first two and most important questions are these two (which require a bit of an introduction): The method suggests that I take a passage of an appropriate size and try playing it at maximum possible speed (performance speed or higher) to figure out which movements would work at that speed. I am supposed to try playing that passage 7 times and if I get it right at least once then the passage is of an appropriate size for practice (If not i cut it in half and repeat the process). At this stage I am supposed to slow down those movements that worked for high speed and practice them slower and apparently speed them up to the final speed or above (Did I understand this part right?). When I master that I move on to the next passage.

Now my questions are:

-What if I can't actually get the section back up to speed and consistently play it at the max speed in the suggested practice time (15-20min)? Am I playing the wrong motions/movements? Or is the passage apparently too big?

I don't think anyone can really answer that meaningfully. Any generic advice would be highly speculative, as it would be necessary to see you in action to know.

Remember that Chang gives good practical advice but he gives little useful tips on actual technique. If you have physical issues to resolve, you won't find answers in these approaches but must also look elsewhere.

[benjammin]

I don't think anyone can really answer that meaningfully. Any generic advice would be highly speculative, as it would be necessary to see you in action to know.

Remember that Chang gives good practical advice but he gives little useful tips on actual technique. If you have physical issues to resolve, you won't find answers in these approaches but must also look elsewhere.

After trying the method (specifically the "repeated notes group" tick) for some days now I've come to the conclusion that nothing is wrong if it's not up to speed at the end of the session if I'm sure the movements I'm practicing are correct because only today (after 3 sessions of practicing a particular passage) I see the results. The speed at which I was able to play the passage accurately and clearly surprised me a lot. There was a sentence in one of those threads by Bernhard which confirmed my assumption: "Speed often increases just as a consequence of the familiarity that comes from endless repetitions."

[keypeg]

Anyway: Bernhard wrote quite a lot of posts regarding practicing and acquiring technique based on Chang's book: "Fundamentals of piano practice" and other books and research which I haven't checked yet. 

I am quite sure that what Bernhard wrote was not based on Chang's book, but his own experience.  Chang observed the teacher of his two daughters, and drew conclusions on her teaching.  He had learned piano himself prior to this.  Bernhard is a teacher who had a very long period of experience, had developed his own teaching methodology over decades.  He tried to bring across some general principles gleaned from that experience, and get people to think.

[nyiregyhazi]

I am quite sure that what Bernhard wrote was not based on Chang's book, but his own experience.  Chang observed the teacher of his two daughters, and drew conclusions on her teaching.  He had learned piano himself prior to this.  Bernhard is a teacher who had a very long period of experience, had developed his own teaching methodology over decades.  He tried to bring across some general principles gleaned from that experience, and get people to think.

Didn't he use the same terminology of "parallel sets"? I'm not aware of this term having been in usage other than from Chang.

[keypeg]

Regardless of the terminology, it does not make sense that a teacher with decades of experience who has developed his own teaching, would learn from the parent of a student. I know for a fact that Bernhard developed his ideas on teaching and learning over decades.

[nyiregyhazi]

Regardless of the terminology, it does not make sense that a teacher with decades of experience who has developed his own teaching, would learn from the parent of a student. I know for a fact that Bernhard developed his ideas on teaching and learning over decades.

The two are not mutually exclusive. If bernhardt adopted chang's terminology (as I seem to recall is the case) be has at the very least been influenced by his work, regardless of how much he acquired during his teaching experience. There are highly advanced pianists or this forum who speak of how much they learned from Chang, so there's no logic in suggesting it would not make sense for a teacher to have learned from Chang. Even decades of teaching didn't allow most teachers to divine these logical principles. Many are utterly oblivious after a lifetime of teaching.

In all fairness, most of what Bernhard's posts say is purely about practise organisation and not technique or movement concepts- exactly like Chang. Two people can independently come to a fair degree of similarity, but I'm highly skeptical of the idea that they not only overlapped quite so much but also both neglected other areas quite so similarly- unless Bernard had indeed picked up many of these ideas from Chang. Too many similarities and too few differences, in my opinion, to assume that Bernhard found it all independently.

[keypeg]

changed mind