Spatial memory of piano in the brain

[xxhottie88xx]

Have you ever felt while practising that your two hands just become one during some fast passage? And if you close your eyes, let the muscle memory do the job, you're so focused that even your whole body just become one like it doesnt exist? I think therefore I exist, what we have really developed over all these past years of practising is a vivid piano in our brain We are part of the piano and puano is part of us. I got this inspiration while teaching young students, I found that I hit a Middle C way faster with my eyes closed than a beginner. The following 2013 publication confirmed my revelation. I also concluded that our visual senses come before our auditory senses, therefore we always need to use our eyes to follow the movement first, then fix our eyes on one subject, finally practise with eyes closed.


https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=0BuqU6rWMJCayASonYLIDw&url=https://iwk.mdw.ac.at/lit_db_iwk/download.php%3Fid%3D21938&cd=2&ved=0CB8QFjAB&usg=AFQjCNGkW5FuSeEzuHSBYLGAIIXqAm7DHQ&sig2=rc0jvLmlrPHJwl9zgN91JQ

[ted]

An interesting subject, and very relevant to improvisation, during which I always think through both hands. The "one hand of ten fingers" sensation occurs to me all the time. Although I do not have to look at my hands, when I do it is usually to secure some point of musical interest rather than to increase accuracy. The haptic component of improvisation seems to me very complicated, and mostly inseparable from aural intention and feedback. The article is right, I think, about many players becoming locked into thinking through their right hands. Some jazz players, in particular, not that I know very many, seem so set into this habit that channelling the idea stream through their left hands is very difficult if not impossible.

[j_menz]

The thing I don't understand about the study is why they used a photocopy of a keyboard rather than an actual real life one - it seems an unnecessarily artificial step which may have an influence on the outcome (or may not - can't tell but why take the risk).  Also seems to me the conclusions/discussion seem to go way beyond  the data .

That said, I mostly think of one set of ten fingers - but that is disturbed when they have to interact (ie, the fingers intertwine, where they cross over, or where the music on the staves crosses over (irrespective of whether the hands do or not).

[xxhottie88xx]

the reason why they used a paper keyboard instead of a real piano is because they are only measuring action time. You should know that there is a "point of sound" (consult taubman technique or ask your piano technicien) on a real piano, and a pianist must always exert a minimum weight of 55 mg to hit the "point of sound", but if the pianist is just hitting a paper, there is no concern for not exerting enough weight, the pianist can just focus on the physical movement from one space location C4 (x1, y1, z1) to the next space location C5 (x2, y2, z2) in a 3D world.

I know many pianists will say that it is ridiculous what the article suggests "it takes at least a decade to become an established pianist, and the pianist must spend a few hours everyday to hit notes" and the article doesnt really talk about something they dont know. They can not accept that yes its true you actually spent a decade just hitting that Middle C.

Also there is an organization called ISPS thats worth checking out when you have free time, they have the most cutting edge discoveries on performance science.

[flashyfingers]

I definitely think that picture memory and visualization is important in learning music. I also have found that I have to find a comfort zone at the piano, when I sit in front of it, meaning I have to gain my coordination before I even touch the keys, or I will have to feel my way around the piano, hit and miss notes...etc. But visualizing music and playing it in your mind, your dreams, hearing it clearly and responding to it in your head as you are about to wake up, thinking about it every second you are away from the piano, that has become important to me. It may not be much and it may not be everything. But it's there, so might as well.

[j_menz]

the reason why they used a paper keyboard instead of a real piano is because they are only measuring action time.

I know. But there is a slight physical, and a potentially big psychological, difference between sitting at a real piano (familiar) and a pretend photocopy (not so much).

Also, if you can't make the note sound when you get there, you needn't have bothered.

[j_menz]

Also there is an organization called ISPS thats worth checking out when you have free time, they have the most cutting edge discoveries on performance science.

You really should post links.

Do you mean The International Symposium on Performance Science (ISPS) or The Institute for the Study of Performance and Spirituality (ISPS) or someone else?

[xxhottie88xx]

You really should post links.

Do you mean The International Symposium on Performance Science (ISPS) or The Institute for the Study of Performance and Spirituality (ISPS) or someone else?

International Symposium of Performance Science. I am still trying to learn how to use the forum
...

[j_menz]

International Symposium of Performance Science. I am still trying to learn how to use the forum
...

No worries, just bear in mind quite a lot of acronyms are difficult to search reliably and can lead to confusion.

[xxhottie88xx]

I know. But there is a slight physical, and a potentially big psychological. difference between sitting at a real piano (familiar) and a pretend photocopy (not so much).

Also, If you can't make the note sound when you get there, you needn't have bothered.

.....

The pianist is only given the position of middle C (C4, for piano techniciens), then asked to play a high C (C5) or some other interval using the index finger from memory. It is meant to be done at a non keyboard condition.

[j_menz]

It is meant to be done at a non keyboard condition.

And that is my problem. It is learnt in a "keyboard condition" and any departure from that may impact on the result.

[xxhottie88xx]

And that is my problem. It is learnt in a "keyboard condition" and any departure from that may impact on the result.

Then why don't we do an experiment ourselves, use a real piano. Maybe we can prove to them the 22 mm error is bullshit, it's supposed to be 2 mm xD

[flashyfingers]

And that is my problem. It is learnt in a "keyboard condition" and any departure from that may impact on the result.

Very interesting.

I have never practiced with an imaginary keyboard, but I have practiced imaginary technique, and on practice claviers and keyboards. However, I feel that practicing at the piano, and even away from the piano has greatly improved my reflexes, in general. Perhaps it is the hand-eye coordination point. Perhaps my eyes always have to be open. It would be really cool if I could catch falling objects with my eyes closed, without ever having to see where they fall, my hands would just reach out to touch the object, and I would catch it if it is falling.

[j_menz]

It would be really cool if I could catch falling objects with my eyes closed, without ever having to see where they fall, my hands would just reach out to touch the object, and I would catch it if it is falling.

Perhaps not all falling objects.

[dima_76557]

I also concluded that our visual senses come before our auditory senses, therefore we always need to use our eyes to follow the movement first, then fix our eyes on one subject, finally practise with eyes closed.

The spatial orientation pianists need is not strictly visual. It is their ability to maintain their body orientation and/or posture in relation to their particular surrounding environment, in this case a structure of repeated "black" and "white" objects, but also of "vertically higher" and "vertically lower" ivory or plastic objects, something that can be experienced with the fingertips only and with eyes closed. Accurate SOUND EXPECTATION in advance with our inner ear (not our physical ears that have a controlling function only!) greatly influences the precision.
P.S.: Very accomplished blind pianists cast doubt on the conclusions drawn in the research, don't you think?

[xxhottie88xx]

The spatial orientation pianists need is not strictly visual. It is their ability to maintain their body orientation and/or posture in relation to their particular surrounding environment, in this case a structure of repeated "black" and "white" objects, but also of "vertically higher" and "vertically lower" ivory or plastic objects, something that can be experienced with the fingertips only and with eyes closed. Accurate SOUND EXPECTATION in advance with our inner ear (not our physical ears that have a controlling function only!) greatly influences the precision.
P.S.: Very accomplished blind pianists cast doubt on the conclusions drawn in the research, don't you think?

Teach me how to get a sound expectation first?

[xxhottie88xx]

Very interesting.

I have never practiced with an imaginary keyboard, but I have practiced imaginary technique, and on practice claviers and keyboards. However, I feel that practicing at the piano, and even away from the piano has greatly improved my reflexes, in general. Perhaps it is the hand-eye coordination point. Perhaps my eyes always have to be open. It would be really cool if I could catch falling objects with my eyes closed, without ever having to see where they fall, my hands would just reach out to touch the object, and I would catch it if it is falling.

Where does the catch falling objects with eyes closed come from? So irrelevant.

[dima_76557]

Teach me how to get a sound expectation first?

I am not a teacher. Besides, judging from your recordings, I am quite sure that you don't need any lessons in that respect; just the courage to use what nature has given us all: fingertips to "see". Stop playing the piano with your eyes, and you will also get rid of your tendonitis!

I am simply encouraging you to contemplate on the true origin of a pianist's spatial orientation, which has NOTHING, I really mean NOTHING to do with the visual aspect.

P.S.: The paper keyboard test misses the essential 3D component (the territory of the fingertips) and assumes that "hitting right" has nothing to do with accurate inner sound expectation, only with visual targetting.

[lazyfingers]

P.S.: The paper keyboard test misses the essential 3D component (the territory of the fingertips) and assumes that "hitting right" has nothing to do with accurate inner sound expectation, only with visual targetting.

My interpretation of the experiment is different. To me, the experiment was designed to isolate the accuracy derived solely from spatial memory, and therefore showed that pianists rely on other senses such as sound, touch etc when they play.

Also, the use of a cardboard keyboard makes sense because they wanted to change only one thing in the experimental setup and measure the difference.

Sometimes when I practice note accuracy, I close my eyes and rely on the other senses. I find that after doing this I am less reliant upon visuals for accuracy. Useful when the hands are doing different things simultaneously.

[xxhottie88xx]

I am not a teacher. Besides, judging from your recordings, I am quite sure that you don't need any lessons in that respect; just the courage to use what nature has given us all: fingertips to "see". Stop playing the piano with your eyes, and you will also get rid of your tendonitis!

I am simply encouraging you to contemplate on the true origin of a pianist's spacial orientation, which has NOTHING, I really mean NOTHING to do with the visual aspect.

P.S.: The paper keyboard test misses the essential 3D component (the territory of the fingertips) and assumes that "hitting right" has nothing to do with accurate inner sound expectation, only with visual targetting.

I don't get your point. They are not measuring the 3D sensory component of the finger tip, but only measuring the action time. I believe Royal College of Music and University of Performing Arts Vienna only speak truth at their ISPS conference.

[dima_76557]

My interpretation of the experiment is different. To me, the experiment was designed to isolate the accuracy derived solely from spatial memory, and therefore showed that pianists rely on other senses such as sound, touch etc when they play.

Spatial memory seems to have been interpreted as visual only, but that is not how it works. The missing part is this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception

[j_menz]

I believe Royal College of Music and University of Performing Arts Vienna only speak truth at their ISPS conference.

The paper in question was by the following authors, with their institutions indicated underneath.

Chie Ohsawa (1,2), Satoshi Obata (3), Takeshi Hirano (4), Minoru Tsuzaki (2),
Taro Ito (5), Tadahiko Saito (6), and Hiroshi Kinoshita (3)

1 Japan Society for the Promotion of Science, Japan
2 Faculty of Music, Kyoto City University of Arts, Japan
3 Graduate School of Medicine, Osaka University, Japan
4 Faculty of Management, Osaka Seikei University, Japan
5 School of Health and Sports Sciences, Mukogawa Women’s University, Japan
6 Faculty of Education, Shinshu University, Japan

The RCM and UPAV have nothing to do with them, other than perhaps finding their research interesting enough to discuss.

[dima_76557]

I don't get your point. They are not measuring the 3D sensory component of the finger tip, but only measuring the action time.

How then can the results of such a test say anything meaningful about the topic of spatial memory of piano in the brain? Visual memory, yes, but the visual aspect is only a very insignificant part of that problem. It is the fingertips that determine a pianist's accuracy, and not his/her eyes.

[lostinidlewonder]

Have you ever felt while practising that your two hands just become one during some fast passage?

Anything I play feels like two hands are one because they both are interacting with each other enhancing each others sound.

And if you close your eyes, let the muscle memory do the job, you're so focused that even your whole body just become one like it doesnt exist?

If I improvise I like to close my eyes and let loose, but if I am playing memorized music it makes no difference to me if I close my eyes or not, unless my eyes feel very dry

I think therefore I exist, what we have really developed over all these past years of practising is a vivid piano in our brain We are part of the piano and puano is part of us.

For me the piano feels like a space in front of me with sections. I can feel this space even if there is no piano in front of me. I cant play in the air exactly how I would on a real piano (but almost the same) because you need the black and white keys to resist under the fingers to fully achieve it, but I can feel the entire piano in front of me even if it's not there and only in my mind. In that respect the physical piano itself really does become a part of our body. Memorized music, music you can hum in your head, automatically becomes a part of you, I have always found this action a divine one. You can just think about the music in your head and be so happy.

[xxhottie88xx]

The paper in question was by the following authors, with their institutions indicated underneath.

Chie Ohsawa (1,2), Satoshi Obata (3), Takeshi Hirano (4), Minoru Tsuzaki (2),
Taro Ito (5), Tadahiko Saito (6), and Hiroshi Kinoshita (3)

1 Japan Society for the Promotion of Science, Japan
2 Faculty of Music, Kyoto City University of Arts, Japan
3 Graduate School of Medicine, Osaka University, Japan
4 Faculty of Management, Osaka Seikei University, Japan
5 School of Health and Sports Sciences, Mukogawa Women’s University, Japan
6 Faculty of Education, Shinshu University, Japan

The RCM and UPAV have nothing to do with them, other than perhaps finding their research interesting enough to discuss.

Exactly as listed, the research paper is done by 6 scholars plus more than 10 pianists, half of them have >15 years experience of playing piano. It is not made in UK but successfully sold to UK. We can help them to improve the experiment though, eventually help ourselves to develop an effortless practise method.

[flashyfingers]

Where does the catch falling objects with eyes closed come from? So irrelevant.

It wasn't irrelevant. You are just not seeing my point.      

@Dima

When you refer to the inner ear, are you referring to intuition type skills or the cochlear membrane?


Check this out, since we are talking about memory and brain power.

https://mic.com/articles/91329/science-shows-how-pianists-brains-are-actually-different-from-everybody-elses?utm_source=policymicFB&utm_medium=main&utm_campaign=social

[xxhottie88xx]

It wasn't irrelevant. You are just not seeing my point.      

@Dima

When you refer to the inner ear, are you referring to intuition type skills or the cochlear membrane?


Check this out, since we are talking about memory and brain power.

https://mic.com/articles/91329/science-shows-how-pianists-brains-are-actually-different-from-everybody-elses?utm_source=policymicFB&utm_medium=main&utm_campaign=social

Touché! This article is everywhere on Facebook. The cortex is significantly bigger for the hands part in a pianists brain. The reason why it is bigger is because one requires to think about 1. pitch, 2. rhythm, 3. fingering, 4. tempo, 5. dynamic, 6. LR difference, already there are six parameters that the brain needs process mix and match at the same time. At The initial stage, one can only do p, mp, mf, f, then with practice, the pianist develops a more differentiated dynamic levels, pp, p, mp, mf, f, ff etc.

[flashyfingers]

Touché! This article is everywhere on Facebook. The cortex is significantly bigger for the hands part in a pianists brain. The reason why it is bigger is because one requires to think about 1. pitch, 2. rhythm, 3. fingering, 4. tempo, 5. dynamic, 6. LR difference, already there are six parameters that the brain needs process mix and match at the same time. At The initial stage, one can only do p, mp, mf, f, then with practice, the pianist develops a more differentiated dynamic levels, pp, p, mp, mf, f, ff etc.

It's so awesome! I'm like...yes. Yes, I am amazing. hahaha

RANT

No, but yeah. I was talking about catching falling objects with eyes-closed because we were all talking about senses, coordination and memory response to senses. The way I see a falling object is that the rate of gravitational fall is acceleration of an object, the longer it has been falling/the faster it is falling/the harder it is to catch. I feel like with my eyes, I am able to see the object as it begins to fall, and my muscle memory based on piano skills is to look, and NOT THINK OR SECOND GUESS, but to REACT (and then rely on your hands and that they know what they're doing). So, my response is not to look, but when I do look, then my response is to reach my arm out. But it is still, Look, then without looking at your hand you reach (I guess while still looking at the object, or you could look away and imagine where the object is, based on photographic memory, and begin searching for another object). So when we play piano, we know it takes too long to look at what each finger is doing. This is crazy, because what if some people play the things they aren't looking at, based on sound and some based on picture memory (Like Glenn Gould)?

I know this may sound strange, but light travels faster than sound and either have an effect of the brain, one more intense than the other...For some reason I think this is why learning to play an instrument is different than what non-musicians may imagine it is like. This is because music is not only sound, it is...? (Insert ground-breaking definition here.)

 When we learn a piece of music, we mostly do learn visually first, especially if your teachers have told you to never play a note until you have looked at your music and set your mind to what and how you are going to play. Not to mention, the sight of the piano leaves much to the imagination, as opposed to the sight of a drum...

God, I am useless today. Forgive me, hottie88.

On an extra note, in piano, especially pianists that sight read fluently, we train our hands and eyes to follow music and to look ahead while playing notes we already looked at, while getting ready to play the notes we are looking at while playing notes that are played in the place that we actually are currently in the music...LOL. In reading the music, the music that is written on the paper and the ability to play the both parts at the same time is more important than what your hands are doing. Your hands are just a medium. So perhaps, the brain is split perfectly evenly, no left or right handedness, but not because you are using either hand linguistically, but because of how we learn piano music (different than guitar and drums music, still as we are thinking about not only the arms and notes, but even smaller sections of our movable bodies, hands and fingers!)

And maybe, the great thing about piano is that once you are able to use both your lobes of the brain equally (and think about music in two different, yet still progressing points in time, where any point is possible, as long as there is a beginning and end to the piece.), we are able to focus longer, and find more entertainment in scales than one really should. Or, that is why kids find learning piano so boring. Because their attention span has not developed.

By the way, memory is a very interesting phenomenon. I imagine that I am spider man, and I try to have flashbacks (photographic memory) to childhood, as often as I can. It really helps with triggering something in the brain, helps with the capacity.

I recommend trying this, and any photographic memory exercises. Also, trying to use more than one type of memory at the same time, that is very hard. But I definitely prefer it to MATH. Gross.


END RANT

[xxhottie88xx]

It's so awesome! I'm like...yes. Yes, I am amazing. hahaha

RANT

No, but yeah. I was talking about catching falling objects with eyes-closed because we were all talking about senses, coordination and memory response to senses. The way I see a falling object is that the rate of gravitational fall is acceleration of an object, the longer it has been falling/the faster it is falling/the harder it is to catch. I feel like with my eyes, I am able to see the object as it begins to fall, and my muscle memory based on piano skills is to look, and NOT THINK OR SECOND GUESS, but to REACT (and then rely on your hands and that they know what they're doing). So, my response is not to look, but when I do look, then my response is to reach my arm out. But it is still, Look, then without looking at your hand you reach (I guess while still looking at the object, or you could look away and imagine where the object is, based on photographic memory, and begin searching for another object). So when we play piano, we know it takes too long to look at what each finger is doing. This is crazy, because what if some people play the things they aren't looking at, based on sound and some based on picture memory (Like Glenn Gould)?

I know this may sound strange, but light travels faster than sound and either have an effect of the brain, one more intense than the other...For some reason I think this is why learning to play an instrument is different than what non-musicians may imagine it is like. This is because music is not only sound, it is...? (Insert ground-breaking definition here.)

 When we learn a piece of music, we mostly do learn visually first, especially if your teachers have told you to never play a note until you have looked at your music and set your mind to what and how you are going to play. Not to mention, the sight of the piano leaves much to the imagination, as opposed to the sight of a drum...

God, I am useless today. Forgive me, hottie88.

On an extra note, in piano, especially pianists that sight read fluently, we train our hands and eyes to follow music and to look ahead while playing notes we already looked at, while getting ready to play the notes we are looking at while playing notes that are played in the place that we actually are currently in the music...LOL. In reading the music, the music that is written on the paper and the ability to play the both parts at the same time is more important than what your hands are doing. Your hands are just a medium. So perhaps, the brain is split perfectly evenly, no left or right handedness, but not because you are using either hand linguistically, but because of how we learn piano music (different than guitar and drums music, still as we are thinking about not only the arms and notes, but even smaller sections of our movable bodies, hands and fingers!)

And maybe, the great thing about piano is that once you are able to use both your lobes of the brain equally (and think about music in two different, yet still progressing points in time, where any point is possible, as long as there is a beginning and end to the piece.), we are able to focus longer, and find more entertainment in scales than one really should. Or, that is why kids find learning piano so boring. Because their attention span has not developed.

By the way, memory is a very interesting phenomenon. I imagine that I am spider man, and I try to have flashbacks (photographic memory) to childhood, as often as I can. It really helps with triggering something in the brain, helps with the capacity.

I recommend trying this, and any photographic memory exercises. Also, trying to use more than one type of memory at the same time, that is very hard. But I definitely prefer it to MATH. Gross.


END RANT

I simply provided information and shared my insight on this subject helas you need to calm down girl, do not blame math for Plato considered math as an art form as well.

And to fill in the blank, music is not just sound, it is controlled emotion.