Piano exercises

[joao975ca]

Hi everyone,

I wanted to know different opinions on whether piano exercises are helpful or not to piano playing, even at professional level.
I'm a piano student finishing my bachelor degree, and although I've played techincally demanding works (Liszt's Dante Sonata or Beethoven's Appassionata), I sometimes feel like some exercises would make a big difference in my playing. I think that if one can master the piano technique outside the repertoire, then when going to learn a new work, all the practice time would be focused on the music, because there would be very few technical difficulties.
But, I wanted new opinions because I know this is a subject where lots of different opinion emerge.
Thanks

[thalbergmad]

Much has been written on the subject on this forum. Wars have been started and many thousands killed, generating a hatred which will last for a thousand years.

If you can play Liszt's Dante and Beethoven's Appassionata, I fail to see how exercises are going to make a "big" difference to your playing.

I still and always will believe that exercises have a place for those whose repertoire is limited, but once you have reached a certain level, perhaps they only serve a purpose as warm ups.

Thal

[coherence]

Of course it's important to be able to focus on the music. When I perform, I don't want to be at the very edge of my technical abilities along any axis. By "axis" I just mean that any passage has a variety of technical demands; the closer any one of them is to my limit, the less attention I can give to the others, and to any "non-technical" issues. (I'm also just more likely to make mistakes!)

So it's definitely important to me to extend myself technically beyond what I actually plan to perform. I prefer to solve that problem by playing variations on what I do intend to perform (faster, overenunciated, exaggerated dynamics, etc). This is just as challenging as any exercise, I can single out particular aspects of technique, and it feels more relevant to what I'm trying to do. If I could use octave scales to improve some aspect of my playing, then I can use the octave runs in a Scriabin etude for the same purpose.

Could you call those "exercises" anyway? Probably, I don't really care. I just want to play.

[louispodesta]

Hi everyone,

I wanted to know different opinions on whether piano exercises are helpful or not to piano playing, even at professional level.
I'm a piano student finishing my bachelor degree, and although I've played techincally demanding works (Liszt's Dante Sonata or Beethoven's Appassionata), I sometimes feel like some exercises would make a big difference in my playing. I think that if one can master the piano technique outside the repertoire, then when going to learn a new work, all the practice time would be focused on the music, because there would be very few technical difficulties.
But, I wanted new opinions because I know this is a subject where lots of different opinion emerge.
Thanks

There are no muscles in human fingers.  They are bone, ligaments, and tendons.  Once again, there are no muscles.

Between certain segments of the human hand, there are interossei muscles, albeit small, which may aid you in the playing of a trill.

However, the fingers of your hand are executed by the muscles of your lower forearm.  So,  you can waste 30 years of your life playing stupid exercises like I did, or you can do the following:

You can realize that your fingers are a natural (non-piano) extension of your entire upper body.  Therefore, if you properly exercise, (WITH REST!!), the muscles of said region, then you will see results in your level of playing.

Please feel free to contact me by PM, if you so desire.
 

[j_menz]

Therefore, if you properly exercise, (WITH REST!!), the muscles of said region, then you will see results in your level of playing.

Let me save you another thirty years.


Firstly, actual physical strength is really not that important. 

Secondly, muscles are made of two sorts of fibres - cells, if you prefer - slow twitch and fast twitch. Slow twitch muscles are used for strength, and when you do physical exercise, it is these that are developed.

Playing the piano relies on the fast twitch fibres to a significant extent, and these are not much affected by "normal" exercise, meaning that beyond a certain point, "normal" exercises of the forearm etc wont have any affect on your playing.  Whatever other benefits it may have, it's of limited use for piano - though the abilty to support the arms and maintain posture, and general fitness are all a plus, upper body/arm exercises aren't going to do much towards getting you to play advanced repertoire well.

[ted]

I have invented exercises for myself for over forty years. About ten minutes night and morning on the Virgil Practice Clavier at around eight ounces maintains my technique at a level more than sufficient to express myself at the piano. I don't know why this device works so well, and indeed it might not work for other players. I wouldn't like to hear myself playing exercises though, and couldn't bear drilling the same old movements day in and day out as many pianists seem to. I try to exercise movements likely to have some musical relevance to my own peculiar improvisation, with as wide a variety of touch and execution as possible. It is quite possible to exercise creatively and thereby avoid the "daily grind" mentality some good players end up with.

[nyiregyhazi]

There are no muscles in human fingers.  They are bone, ligaments, and tendons.  Once again, there are no muscles.

Between certain segments of the human hand, there are interossei muscles, albeit small, which may aid you in the playing of a trill.

However, the fingers of your hand are executed by the muscles of your lower forearm.  So,  you can waste 30 years of your life playing stupid exercises like I did, or you can do the following:

Umm, you could also actually appreciate that the fact that fingers have no muscles doesn't mean that exercises cannot make them more agile or efficient in their actions. The importance of developing good movement is the issue. Not where the muscles are. The fact that fingers have no muscles doesn't mean that nothing can be trained. They are executed by the very real muscles in your forearms- which need to learn how to operate freely without burden. If they didn't work for you, you simply didn't do them the right way. Exercises need to develop quality and freedom of movement and repetition alone does not guarantee a magical result. Most people press far too hard with arm and simply lock themselves up. But nobody ends up playing Chopin Etudes well without getting their fingers moving freely. Exercises are the best place to work on quality of movement- IF you know how to go about it.

A lot of injured pianists go through a stage of doing it all with big whole body movements and bobbing arms. But if you don't ultimately come back to individuating the fingers (after unlocking the tensions in the rest of the body) then you don't go on to play rippling pianisimmo passage work with speed precision and control. With the manner of technique on your youtube film, I find it hard to imagine that this is something you will develop via the whole arm approach that has you bobbing around to play every separate note. Once freedom is there, the fingers need to get involved for the next level of both technical and musical success.

[alextone]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7shGLjV0xJc

[philolog]

While I believe that exercises can be beneficial I don't think they can prepare one completely for every eventuality. The music itself provides the best exercise and opportunity for progress, especially as the problems are different in every work. Also, it's far more fun!

[louispodesta]

Today, I spent most of the day on L'sle joyeuse.  As well as I play Debussy, this piece has taken me years to master, technically.

Like everything else, one keeps playing a passage over and over again, keeping track of any small errors, with which to correct.  Thomas Mark teaches that if it doesn't get better in a couple of days, then you need to strip it down and re-analyze your approach.

So, my approach, in terms of shaping, the walking hand, release without holding on, etc., was okay.

The difference (recently)  was with my chest expander exerciser utilizing certain grip modifications.  Accordingly, it gave me a slight but noticeable boost in the Debussy.

That is all of the proof I needed because, now,  I do not have to force, and it seems natural.

What that means to me, and I am in the process of putting together an exercise regimen on this, is that developing muscles, ligaments, tendons, and even bones at the piano, is, as heretofore stated, no different than the process associated with any other activity/trade/profession or sport.

[j_menz]

I am in the process of putting together an exercise regimen on this

One assumes that jumping to conclusions forms a significant part of such regimen.

[louispodesta]

I spent the better part of 20 years working out in a body building gym before I got hurt in bed with my wife.  In the gym, I never injured myself.

Therefore, I am not jumping to any conclusions when I proffer the notion that "I am in the process" of working  on this regimen.

Thank you for your input.  It was important that I clarify my predicate.

[thalbergmad]

I spent the better part of 20 years working out in a body building gym before I got hurt in bed with my wife.  In the gym, I never injured myself.

That must have been some session.

Thal

[stevensk]

My approach:

I extract hard parts of those pieces i plan to learn, and construct exercises based upon those. Sometimes I also connect a hard part for the right hand from one piece of music together whith a hard part for the left hand from another piece of music. I play it in different keys, tempos and sometimes in different rythm.
For me this works

[louispodesta]

I spent the better part of 20 years working out in a body building gym before I got hurt in bed with my wife.  In the gym, I never injured myself.

Therefore, I am not jumping to any conclusions when I proffer the notion that "I am in the process" of working  on this regimen.

Thank you for your input.  It was important that I clarify my predicate.

Yesterday, I spent practically the whole day on the Debussy, and after I was through I felt a slight twinge in my upper forearm.  Then, what I learned from my mother of all people, who used to massage my forearms, I attempted to loosen up the joints/ligaments by massaging my forearm.   It made a small difference.

So, following the body-building logic, today I spent the first half of my day refining measures #5-11 of the "Un poco piu mosso" section of the first movement of the Rach 2nd.  And, then I did the same with the following measures starting at number "7."

In the afternoon, I spent the rest of the day on polishing up the Debussy Reverie.

It is a kinesiology approach to me, and it works.  Even if I experience a temporary physical set back, it is never for very long.

Standard piano exercises  will not ever insulate you from this reality.

[nyiregyhazi]

Yesterday, I spent practically the whole day on the Debussy, and after I was through I felt a slight twinge in my upper forearm.  Then, what I learned from my mother of all people, who used to massage my forearms, I attempted to loosen up the joints/ligaments by massaging my forearm.   It made a small difference.

So, following the body-building logic, today I spent the first half of my day refining measures #5-11 of the "Un poco piu mosso" section of the first movement of the Rach 2nd.  And, then I did the same with the following measures starting at number "7."

In the afternoon, I spent the rest of the day on polishing up the Debussy Reverie.

It is a kinesiology approach to me, and it works.  Even if I experience a temporary physical set back, it is never for very long.

Standard piano exercises  will not ever insulate you from this reality.

Done right, they will actually. That doesn't mean empty headed drilling. It means slow and sensitive work on separating true finger movements out from any associated tightness in the arm. This may be done as slowly as one note per second or even slower still. There is no better place to separate movement from arm tightnesses or pressures, because you have a chance to concentrate on the basics.

Exercises train you to do whatever quality you do when you execute them. Do them wrong and you train yourself to associate any willful finger movement with a host of stiffneses in the wrist and forearm. Do them right and they liberate you. They allow you to play passages which are too fast and tiresome to be executed by pressing the arm hard into the fingers, or by moving fingers from a clenched arm. You instead learn how to move the keys effortlessly with the fingers while keeping the arm linked up via a sense of length that creates stability and connection without clenching. Learn this and you won't end the day with tight forearms- which are a sign of clenching/excessive downward arm pressure which overworks the fingers.

I know your guru Thomas Mark speaks a lot about the arm, but what he neglects to consider is that fingers work harder when trying to be passive not less. A hand is not stiff unless you make it so. Even when using arm energy, a hand which is not moving is either collapsing without real tonal control or stiffening against collapse. Passivity and tension become one and the same thing. True movement is indispensible, if you want to make a truly evolved connection between hand and arm. Arms can only complement active hand motions, not replace them. By working on creating true movement in the hand via carefully controlled exercises (that use lateral arm movements to ensure freedom), you learn to dissociate it from any arm tensions and instead turn it into something that actively protects against the moments of enforced clenching. Excessive desire to depend on arm pressures (gravitational or otherwise) easily ends up promoting clenching, compared to the most evolved level of pianism.

PS. If you're polishing up these pieces, you should really upload some footage soon- given all the claims you've made about having brought your technique up to playing a host of big concertos etc. If you've overcome the problems of old with your technique, show us where you are with the results now.

[ted]

That must have been some session.

Thal

I was rather hoping you would notice that one Thal. Of course at my age, although certain images, and indeed, experiences, came to mind, I couldn't possibly have commented.

[outin]

I was rather hoping you would notice that one Thal. Of course at my age, although certain images, and indeed, experiences, came to mind, I couldn't possibly have commented.

I was kind of hoping that no-one started a discussion on that...

[louispodesta]

I was kind of hoping that no-one started a discussion on that...

Thanks!

[Bob]

I'm thinking it's a personal decision whether to focus on technique or not.  I would think everyone would agree the very ultimate goal is to play actual music though.  Although I suppose there's an argument for being a better musician, not playing pieces, and just being better technically.  But there's always some kind of expectation that you'd use that technique to play a piece, improvise, etc., something beyond just technique.

[louispodesta]

I'm thinking it's a personal decision whether to focus on technique or not.  I would think everyone would agree the very ultimate goal is to play actual music though.  Although I suppose there's an argument for being a better musician, not playing pieces, and just being better technically.  But there's always some kind of expectation that you'd use that technique to play a piece, improvise, etc., something beyond just technique.

No harm, and effectuating definitely no foul.  And,  you are a little late to the dance, per my following video:

It is only a very, very rough outline of my entire thesis.  That is , as you have exactly stated, the ORIGINAL performance practice (NOT STYLE!!!)  of the 19th century pianists.

This was to  was to convey the original intention of the composers as taught by their (1) wives, and 2) their immediate teaching assistants.

[Bob]

I'm not really following how my post is related to your reply.  I watched the first seven minutes of the video.... I've watched it before though.  Style, broken chords, etc... 

If someone wants to practice technique alone, fine.  Eventually it would be put into some actual music though.  I definitely fall on the technical practice side.  Some people prefer to learn more music.  It's whatever someone decides.

[zerozero]

Hi everyone,

I wanted to know different opinions on whether piano exercises are helpful or not to piano playing, even at professional level.
I'm a piano student finishing my bachelor degree, and although I've played techincally demanding works (Liszt's Dante Sonata or Beethoven's Appassionata), I sometimes feel like some exercises would make a big difference in my playing. I think that if one can master the piano technique outside the repertoire, then when going to learn a new work, all the practice time would be focused on the music, because there would be very few technical difficulties.
But, I wanted new opinions because I know this is a subject where lots of different opinion emerge.
Thanks

 Di you know the more I think about this, I think the OP is thinking in a classical manner. They way I was taught 'classically' one learned the dots and did not worry too much about what was really going on chordally. 'Exercises' were seen as something to develop the fingers - articulation.

Its really much more than this. If you instantly know each chord and scale so you can deliver it, not just simply up and down, but articulate it  like a well oiled bicycle chain bending about.., when you look at other peoples work you can tell instantly what they are using and what they are trying to achieve, thus a stand blues form, a set of rhythm changes, or other standard forms, stick out in the mind and knowledge can be transferred from piece to piece. Of course you will need all your fingers for this mastery, but its more than just 'technical excercises'

What really showed me this was taking nursery rhymes and folk songs through all 12c  keys.


IMO

Z