Forcing it, or letting it happen

[m1469]

I havn't written in for a while.  I have been doing some musical explorations and have come to a spot that I am absolutely starving to share with somebody, so here I am at the PF site again.

As shortly as possible:

While I was in university studying piano, I was very dedicated in my practice and practiced for as many hours as I could muster in each day.  My general attitude was very heavy, serious and determined.  I do believe that I accomplished some good things this way, but generally I was never pleased, satisfied or even happy with where I was with the instrument nor music in general.

Throughout some big life decisions piano has seemed to come out on the top of many a heap.   After some personal growth and actually after reading many things on this forum, I have been changing my overall attitude and approach to the instrument and music (I am still very dedicated and commited, if not more).

I have been concentrating and focusing so much more in the moment, and I have been peeling away as much pressure on my "art" as possible and consciously working to enjoy in each session what it is that I am setting out to do.  Remarkably, I have been enjoying my practice so much.  Also, I have enjoyed the results of practice and feel myself making gains.  Generally I feel happy and deeply satisfied in my work.  Funny enough, I am having really fun break throughs technically as well!  Things are beginning to make sense to me in a way that they never have before and my horizons are glowing to me in a way that seem very fulfilling.

Here is my curiousity:

Do you suppose that I am experiencing the fruit of honest labor put in a few years ago (of which labor I never truly felt the rewards) --more forceful

or

do you suppose that my new approach could be the source of these recent unfoldments --more humble


Basically should we force it or let it happen?

Thoughtful responses are appreciated

Thanks

m1469

[krenske]

as beethoven says...
first i open the lid, then i play.

[lostinidlewonder]

I supposed that as musicians we are always re-creating how we play things, we develop our art. When we look back to how we played 5 years ago it may be different. I think we all go through periods of change in our musical excecution and emotional attachment. If you work hard, or "force it" as you say, you will always reap rewards, so long you are working correctly.

It seems that you where not satisfied with your piano progress at the uni previously, so perhaps you have to set out your work methodically so you can properly indication what you want to achieve. I don't think that piano your playing ability should progress without focused attention or organised plans. To get better we have to focus on aspects of keyboard playing which worry us and practice through through actual pieces. The more u fill in those gaps the more u just can play, i guess thats the most methodical way to learn lol.

Still ive met a lot of people who just play what they like and have been doing that all their life. There are holes and technical flawls but it doesnt matter to them because they dont want to play them, or never have the use for them. That isn't forcing your musical studies i think, it all depends what you like, if you study what you like that isn't really forcing things is it? I guess sticking your head in chopin etudes to better your ability might be forcing the issue for some, but for others it is sheer bliss. I don't reckon forcing issues ever work, you should always aim to be smart about your work and have direction.

[tocca]

I believe that whatever you do in life, you will do it much better if you enjoy doing it. I also believe that 2hours of fun practise, where you put your heart in it, will give a  much better result than five-six hours of mindless practise.

So: Force it or let it happen...?
Some times we must force it i think, some times it just isn't fun and we don't want to practise. I think it's ok to take a short brake, a couple of days when it doesn't feel good. But if that happens too often, or for too long time, then i think we must force it... if we want to go far that is.

But trying to make the practisesession more fun and involving our brain as much as possible can only be a good thing. It sounds like you have suceeded in that, congratulations!

[ted]

m1469,
           I suppose it depends on whether you want to be a wretched Socrates or a happy pig. I must admit to having followed the porcine path happily for most of my life, not without severe criticism, I might add. "Why don't you do something with your music ?" "You're the worst under-achiever I know." "You're very selfish just sitting on your bottom improvising for hours. You must write out what you play."

So I can only answer your question from one side because I don't know what it feels like to be competitive and ambitious. Neither am I very fond of angst and struggle. I know only that playing, improvising and composing make me feel good - that's about it really. Where I stand in the general scheme of things neither interests nor concerns me.

[bernhard]

You came back! Welcome.

Here is my curiousity:

Do you suppose that I am experiencing the fruit of honest labor put in a few years ago (of which labor I never truly felt the rewards) --more forceful

or

do you suppose that my new approach could be the source of these recent unfoldments --more humble


Basically should we force it or let it happen?

Neither.

You cannot “let it happen” because it will not happen by itself.

And you cannot force it, because then it will not happen at all.

I want my 5-year daughter to sample Japanese food, for which I have a great fondness. Since I do not live in Japan, I cannot “let it happen”. She will never see Japanese food in her normal life/routine.

But I cannot force her either (by taking her to a Japanese restaurant and yelling at her to eat the freaking raw fish!). That would have quite the opposite effect.

So a third approach is necessary. I must awaken her curiosity. Curiosity is one of the most powerful forces in the universe. If you can awaken curiosity there is no telling what momentous changes are in the way (Just think science: Science is ultimately fueled by curiosity). Then I must make the trip to the restaurant an exciting, exotic and special event. Something to talk about with her friends. And when we get there, I must make sure that the menu has at least one item that she has tried before and that she likes, so as to have a plan B. And the week before I will tell her about Japan, about the food, and may be show her a few Japanese cartoons with people eating this exotic and different food. In short, I will do may best for her to want to try Japanese food. At the end of the day, she may not like it, and that is all right. What is not all right is for her not even to try it and make a judgement on the food: “I have not eaten it and I have not liked it”. It reminds me of the case of the Ayatlooah Khomeiny and Salman Rushdie’s “Sataninc Verses”: “I have not read it, but I do not like it. Kill him!”

We are not that different from little children.

Now for your second question.

You are not experiencing the fruits of your past labours. Most likely these were just a huge waste of time. You are definitely reaping the fruits of your new approach.

Having gone through some of these things myself, I can say that the only (dubious) benefit one gets from doing things the wrong way is to realise that it was the wrong way. If you at the end of such a difficult process conclude that it was thanks to the wrong way that you have become so good, you take away from yourself the only benefit resulting from the process, namely recognising how wrong the wrong ways were.

If you have a virus, no amount of antibiotics are going to help you. Either your body will deal with it or it will not (and you will die). However, go to a doctor with a virus, and they will unfailingly recommend antibiotics. 4 days later, your body has recovered by itself, but the doctors and their antibiotics will claim the credit. 

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[jazzyprof]

I have been concentrating and focusing so much more in the moment, and I have been peeling away as much pressure on my "art" as possible and consciously working to enjoy in each session what it is that I am setting out to do.  Remarkably, I have been enjoying my practice so much. 

I think you have rediscovered your sense of play.  There is a reason that what we do is called playing the piano.  No matter how high and lofty our goals and aspirations, what we do at the piano is still play. 

[m1469]

Hey, thanks to all for the replies!

I agree with you here jazzyprof:

I think you have rediscovered your sense of play.  There is a reason that what we do is called playing the piano.  No matter how high and lofty our goals and aspirations, what we do at the piano is still play. 

Now that you mention it, I do see that I have rediscovered my sense of play at the piano, actually in a big way.   When I was young(er) I used to go to the piano because I loved the sound and I loved discovering how the sounds worked together and how the piano keys were layed out relating to that sound.  I spent a lot of time exploring without any pressure whatsoever on what was to become of it.  Thus, my love for the instrument was completely originated in the instrument itself and what I was discovering.  In my case, I was naturally very intrigued by the piano which I have since found is something unique in my own life experience (I am generally not easily intrigued). 

As Bernhard indicates, my curiosity seems to be playing a very large role in what is taking place.   When I was at university I was still very intrigued, but I suppose I got mixed up about what it was I was supposed to be accomplishing.  There are deep things here, but, perhaps meant for later dates.

Here is what is interesting to me:

When I was at university, I felt that it was my first and perhaps only real opportunity to finally take piano seriously.  I got really attached to the idea of "finishing" pieces and that being able to accomplish pieces would mean that I was a "good pianist".  I was always in a hurry and consequently I skipped a lot of important steps without being conscious of it at the time.  In my case, I also felt that I had a lot of catching up to do and started all of my practice sessions concerned about that and actually, I felt I should need to skip steps if I would ever "catch up". 

(Uhgg, I will just trust that this will taken the right way-- I am only explaining in hopes to help others not do the same thing I did-- you know, "a wise man learns from his mistakes, but an even wiser man learns from the mistakes of others").

Anyway, as I mentioned before, through the reading of threads and posts on this forum I began to look at my approach in a new way.  Particularly Bernhard's comments on how to approach the piano have shed new light on what I am doing.  I would like to venture to say that one of the things that I have discovered is that my end goals anymore are less about "finishing" a piece, but more about enhancing the process.   Should I approach the repertoire more broadly in that I am taking on more pieces at once rather than one or two at a time, the focus really becomes (for me) about what is happening in the moment.  'How am I shaping this phrase?'  'How am I voicing this chord?'  'How am I hearing this tempo, dynamic, etc.'  Basically, when I am taking on more repertoire, I am comitting to be generally always working on my skills through the ongoing working on repertoire instead of being worried only about "finishing" repertoire in which case needed skills get forgotten.

My goals are in the moment.  I want to be as good as I can be now, not just later.  The "finishing" of a piece is more like truly polishing a piece-- they actually shine.  When I am focused on enhancing my musical skills in the moment, when I alot the proper amount of time needed to trulyt polish an entire piece, it happens in the most rewarding ways.  This is very exciting to me.  Again, I don't feel I can adequately "explain" this here.

Bernhard:

You are not experiencing the fruits of your past labours. Most likely these were just a huge waste of time. You are definitely reaping the fruits of your new approach.

Having gone through some of these things myself, I can say that the only (dubious) benefit one gets from doing things the wrong way is to realise that it was the wrong way. If you at the end of such a difficult process conclude that it was thanks to the wrong way that you have become so good, you take away from yourself the only benefit resulting from the process, namely recognising how wrong the wrong ways were.

However difficult to swallow, I do believe that you are right here.  I suppose also being angry about it would only further waste my time and energy ( ), so that's out I guess.

Another interesting thing:

I have been approaching everything with the attitude that there is something completely easy, straight forward and simple about playing.  I just have to discover what that is for me.  Wow!   What a difference this makes!  I am not chipping away at something anymore nor am I forever reinventing the wheel, I am just constantly changing my perspective and approach until I find for myself something that was already there the entire time-- this is a much different sort of responsibility! 

Okay, I will stop ranting.  I am just so excited that I had to share with someone!!!  The best part is, I am just at the tip of the iceberg  !

m1469

[m1469]

Oh Yeah!!  There's more!

These differences have also greatly helped my performing and here are some key things (for me, but they may be helpful to others):

Because of this new approach, my practice sessions are actually confidence builders instead of the opposite, so I feel more confidence going into performance situations.

Here are some key things I have found in myself:

I feel less apologetic about:
       How much time I spend at the instrument
       How much energy I invest in my work
       How much love I have for the art
       That I have not had the "perfect" education (whatever that is)
       That I do not have a flashy biography
       blahh blahh blahhh

Anyway, I am simply starting to just accept where I am at and feel okay with it (however I do not just accept gaps and holes).  Mainly, I have a place to stand on and from somewhere to build vs always feeling apologetic for things and consequently tearing down whatever foothold I might have.  This is of course reflected in my performance, but mostly in my general comfort with performance.

m1469

[bernhard]

I have been approaching everything with the attitude that there is something completely easy, straight forward and simple about playing.  I just have to discover what that is for me.  Wow!   What a difference this makes!  I am not chipping away at something anymore nor am I forever reinventing the wheel, I am just constantly changing my perspective and approach until I find for myself something that was already there the entire time-- this is a much different sort of responsibility! 

m1469

Yes!

That is exactly it, and very well put. There is no difficult, just impossible and easy.

The best part is, I am just at the tip of the iceberg  !

Funny you mentioning that, it is exactly what the people aboard the Titanic said.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[m1469]

Funny you mentioning that, it is exactly what the people aboard the Titanic said.   

Good point!  

[april]

m1469,
I did the school thing too, and am now where you are - rediscovering.  And I love the less apoligetic list

[m1469]

m1469,
I did the school thing too, and am now where you are - rediscovering.  And I love the less apoligetic list

YAY! 

[Herve]

Hello again.

I've stopped by on an infrequent basis to peruse some of the posts.  Because quite a coincidence has happened, I decided I'd write again.  The coincidence is that shortly before making this latest peruse, I wrote something which I think is appropriate for this thread topic.  I’ll first explain the coincidence.

I have a close friend who has a 12 year-old son who lives with is mother a great distance from both his father and me.  The boy lives in a fairly remote, but very beautiful, part of Alberta, and has been "home schooled" to this point in his life.  His mother has encouraged his study of music - first the accordion (one of my least-favoite instruments), and, over the past few years, also the piano. He recently participated in some accordion events and actually “won” one of them.

Because my wife and I live at a very convenient mid-point between them, Dad and he have both visited our home frequently during the past 5 years.  I have played piano for them and rambled on and on about the piano during the course of those visits.  His mother is definitely not a classical music fan - she’s an avid country and western music fan and a real fan of the accordion.  Even considering the musical atmosphere with which he has been saturated, I guess because of his exposure to classical piano through me, he has expressed more and more interest in the piano, and, last year, his dad bought him a P90. 

Near the end of his last visit a few months ago I gave him a copy of what I’ve written on this piano forum and his dad gave him a copy of Whiteside’s “Mastering the Chopin Etudes”.  By the time they actually walked out the door he told me that he had read what I had written.  I asked a couple questions and, by his answers, I knew that indeed he had done so.

Enough explanation.

This morning I got an e-mail message from my friend and he casually mentioned in it that he had talked to his son on the phone and his son said that he had been working on “a Chopin Etude in C” and “knew the first two pages pretty well, but he is struggling with the third page.” 

Well, I was pretty surprised and startled (and jealous!) by this.  I wrote something that I thought might help and then went to the Piano Forum to get a little entertainment  with my morning coffee before sitting down to play.  I read m1469’s very interesting post and this statement caught my eye and prompted me to post:

“I have been approaching everything with the attitude that there is something completely easy, straight forward and simple about playing. I just have to discover what that is for me. Wow! What a difference this makes!”

I experienced this myself many years ago and I now firmly believe that this marks the most important awakening a pianist can, and must, have.  My golfer-friend’s son must also realize this in order to play Chopin and this is what I wrote to try to help his see it:

“...... the Etudes are difficult only in that they require a specific overall body/hand rhythmic technique (the "it" for each Etude). The notes (usually 90% of the notes) in between the important notes should be added only after the impotant ones are learned within the proper "it".  At this point he'd be well-served to spend at least an equal amount of time reading what Abby and I wrote, as he does "practising" any Etude. He first MUST HAVE a real understanding of the "it" - a very dynamic, uninihibited (!!!!), rhythmic "tornado" - which Chopin himself cannot now talk about, but which has to be "unleashed" on these pieces.
 
Think of one of these pieces as a large refrigerator that you have to move up a short flight of stairs. A person is pointing a gun at you and telling you that you either get that thing up the stairs or he's going to put a bullet in your head.  Yes, your fingers will be touching and "moving" the refrigerator, but they are merely a contact point - only part of an "end product" - of a very big force that your entire body will be applying, and, remarkably, this "it" will be something which first starts as a "conception" or "plan of action" which you have "conjured up" in your brain to accomplish the task - at first a mere "thought". 

This "thought" is what Chopin tries to convey through his Etudes - at his time a completely new way (technique) of playing the piano. The works of Chopin and Liszt immediately demonstrate to the player the woeful inadequacy of any "finger"  technique and should cause the student to take great pause to figure out how these things can be easily played. THAT"S the tough part.

One should not slowly learn notes under the mistaken impression that speeding things up will make all things clear. One must decide “up front” - "Ah, THIS is what he's trying to show me!" - and NEVER release that thought when "practising".

In the case of the Etudes, an intimate understanding of the "means" really is of far greater importance than a production of the "end". The "end" is merely a stream of notes. (A photo of the refrigerator at the top of the stairs with you standing next to it.) What's important is how did the TORSO/ARMS/HANDS have to move to get the fingers (at the periphery of the whole mechanism) to contact the keys in order to create that stream. (How the hell DID you get that refrigerator UP there? As you can well imagine, it didn't have much to do with the fingers - just as htting a 350 yard drive doesn't have much to do with them.)”

Myla, good luck in your piano study.  I think you are absolutely "dead on" with your new-found "attitude" and that, because of it, you’re about to make remarkable progress in you endeavor.  If you haven’t already done so, please read some of  what Abby Whiteside has to say about playing the piano:
https://www.abbywhiteside.org/

[bernhard]

Another excellent post, Herve . I wish you would write more often

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[m1469]

I experienced this myself many years ago and I now firmly believe that this marks the most important awakening a pianist can, and must, have.  My golfer-friend’s son must also realize this in order to play Chopin and this is what I wrote to try to help his see it:


m1469, good luck in your piano study.  I think you are absolutely "dead on" with your new-found "attitude" and that, because of it, you’re about to make remarkable progress in you endeavor.  If you haven’t already done so, please read some of  what Abby Whiteside has to say about playing the piano:
https://www.abbywhiteside.org/

Thanks so much for posting Herve!  What wonderful insight you have.  Also, thank you for your words of encouragement.  I will be sure to give Abby Whiteside a read.

I second Bernhard's wish that you would write more often.

Thanks again,
m1469 Fox

[Herve]

Bernhard and m1469,

Thanks.  I've enjoyed your posts too.

I don't write often because I don't really have much to contribute beyond what I've already said - and even that is getting kind of repetitive, but what you said, m1469, really struck a chord (no pun intended)  in me. 

I don't know about you folks, but for me writing about something so esoteric as how to play the piano is very difficult.  I find that I have to constantly use examples which illustrate a point for me, but could be completely "off the wall" and of no use to others, so I really feel like I'm going out on a limb with each post and, therefore, am very reluctant to do so.  (I've seen those balnk stares looking back at me as I've rambled on about this verbally, but maybe the listeners weren't as motivated as those who would bother to post on this forum.) 

But, now that I AM writing ........  One other thing that has always brought me comfort and might be worth mentioning here.  As I work on a piece, if whatever it is I'm "trying on for size" doesn't work almost immeidately, I reject it and try something else.  Any motion which cannot be executed WITH EASE, and WITHIN the RHYTMIC FRAMEWORK,  is NOT the proper technique and should be rejected.  Unfortunately, traditional teaching doesn't seem to convey this message adequately (at least, explicitly).  To a quite remarkable degree, each individual piece requires a "custom" technique - perhaps even requiring a "fingering" of a common scale or arpeggio which one has never attempted, but which, for rhythmic reasons alone (most often because it "fits better" into a larger movement of either arms or torso), is far easier to execute in performance.  (The Beethoven Sonatas are good examples.)  At the end of this process, what one is therefore left with is a series of easily-executed motions rather than the grimmacing and insecurity (and failure!) of the alternatives. 

Maybe I'll post again about what develops with this 12-year-old playing Chopin Etudes.  I wonder what I'll hear when he sits down to play!

Merry Christmas, Bernhard, m1469 and one and all!

[m1469]

I just had to drag up this old thread to give a cheesey thanks (hopefully you enjoy my taste in cheese  ) to these people who had responded to my initial post at this time.  It helped me so much at the time, but yesterday feeling a bit discouraged about piano, I came back and found this thread and I read every post again.  It blew a little wind back into my sails and I am feeling very grateful to those who take the time to thoughtfully respond to those who are in question.

(I also feel really grateful for this forum  )

Thanks people !

m1469

[mound]

m1469 - have you read "Effortless Mastery" by Kenny Werner? It sounds like you have recently found out for yourself a hint at what he teaches you how to achieve on a consistent basis.  I've read it twice now and am daily working on the meditations and approach for finding that "space" that he talks about.   If you are not already familiar with this book, I really think you'd gain alot from it. Check it out!

-Paul

[m1469]

Thanks mound/Paul, I tried to find this book in the library following your suggestion, but I had no such luck.  So I purchased it  .  Thanks,

m1469

[mound]

It's really inspiring! I read it through to the end first to get a feel for where he was going. Then I went back to the first meditation..  Once you've read it once, go back and work on the first meditation and "Step One" (you'll know what I'm talking about once you've read it) and really focus, for several days or weeks or more on completing "step one" -this is what allows you to get to "the space" (as he calls it) from where everything else happens.

I'm still on Step 1. One of the things you'll find he talks about, after getting yourself in "the space" is free play -  letting your fingers roam across the keys completely effortlessly, and more importantly, completely without thought.  You visualize yourself not as the player, rather, as somebody observing the player, and then as somebody observing the person observing the player.. (while my fingers are moving with total ease (not playing anything predetermined, just randomly floating) I picture somebody playing a piano in a room, and I'm the guy in the front row watching as I hear "the most beautiful sounds I've ever heard", then I'm the guy in the 2nd row looking at the guy in the first row, looking at the piano player. - that's an exercise he suggests)

It sounds bizarre, and the first few times I tried this I thought it was completely rediculous. But I then experienced a feeling, not unlike that which I described a few weeks ago in my post A Defining Performance For me where my fingers were flying and I was literally an observer! It's hard to prevent your ego from jumping in and trying to edit, rationalize or otherwise have an impact on what you are playing, and this is what the book gets at.

I'm looking forward to moving on to "Step Two"  once I'm confident I can get to this completely detached state of observation "on command"

good luck! Let me know what you think once you get started with it!

-Paul