Help with Chopin Etude Op. 25 No. 11 "Winter Wind"

[thepianonoob]

I just started this Etude yesterday and have found the sixteenth note runs almost impossible to play fast. Any methods that you like to use would be appreciated.

[stevensk]

Play a piece that fits your technique!
Please, choose another piece! The Chopin etudes are for VIRITOUS pianists! If you have this kind of problem whith them you are absolute not suited for playing them!

[j_menz]

The Chopin etudes are for VIRITOUS pianists!

Virtuous? Liszt played them to Chopin's approval. 

[coda_colossale]

If you have this kind of problem

That's the point of the darn thing... You're supposed have that kind of a problem with it. It would be quite pointless otherwise.

[magic_sonata]

Play a piece that fits your technique!
Please, choose another piece! The Chopin etudes are for VIRITOUS pianists! If you have this kind of problem whith them you are absolute not suited for playing them!

That's rather harsh. I think any piece can be played, but with correct technique and proper training, it can be done. But you must know your limits in order to prevent from straining yourself, as always, but it's mostly a mental challenge as well as physical, depending on your current experience in piano.

So, to answer your question....

I just started this Etude yesterday and have found the sixteenth note runs almost impossible to play fast. Any methods that you like to use would be appreciated.

First, determine whether or not you would like to play this piece. In the past, I have found that pieces that I had a strong desire *not* to play, my progress was very slow and it didn't have the same depth once fully learned as other pieces that I enjoyed. Pieces that you have that are required for competitions, exams, etc. then you need to, simply put, search for the themes that you enjoy (might it be the melody, the bass line, the contrast of dynamics, etc.) and practice the piece efficiently. Learn to embrace things you don't particularly 'like', as you will learn from them in the future.  

Also, you should determine if you believe that you are mentally and physically prepared to learn a challenging piece. Any piece can be learnt and executed beautifully, it is a matter of time and how you feel about it. Consider that you may encounter stressful practice days where you feel you cannot play a certain section of the piece or you can't exactly get it the way you want it to. It's all a general personal mindset on how you approach it as well as self awareness you have of your own abilities.

If not learning for a competition or exam and purely for personal enjoyment or the assignment of your piano instructor, you should consider how efficient you can be during your practice time. Being a pianist myself, I find myself growing mentally exhausted after 3 hours min. of consistent practice with no breaks. Try breaking your practice time into sections, allowing for yourself to take a break from all of the information you have taken in. Learning a piece for your brain is much like trying to put together a puzzle.

Now, the question is, how do you break up these sections? What should I cover when practicing my piece in order to get the most out of my practice time and, while in the process, being detailed?

You said that you were struggling with the sixteenth note runs in the etude. I assume that you have these notes in your fingers, just not up to tempo. If you have learned the whole piece and cannot fit this section to be in tempo with the rest of the piece, then you need to concentrate *only on this section*. In a particular sonata I played in the past, my left hand was dragging behind my right hand and I felt as though my left hand was struggling to keep up. This was due to the fact I was neglecting to build the 'finger strength' and 'stamina' to match my dominant right hand with the repetitive sixteenth notes. So, I focused a lot of my time with repetitive practice *without* playing the piece over and over again.

If you have not finished the whole piece and you are trying to get it up to tempo---DON'T. I cannot stress this enough. Learn the whole piece first and gain more familiarity with the notes and understanding of the piece on a structural and emotional level. Once you have done that, getting it up to speed will not be an issue. It takes a lot of dedicated practice, advice from instructors and peers, and most of all--something that can't be taken away from you. Your love for the piano.


Sorry for the lengthy response. Once I started writing, I couldn't stop. It's a habit.

Keep up the good work! It's an amazing piece, nonetheless. Hope I gave some worthy advice.  

Best of luck,

magic_sonata

[awesom_o]

Excellent post, magic_sonata! Many wise words.

if the pianonoob only started op. 25/11 yesterday, he/she should NOT be trying to play the 16th notes fast yet. He or she should instead be busy studying the work in its entirety on the structural level, in a reduced tempo.

I think one of the main errors that people make in their studying is when they work hard to bring small sections of the piece up to tempo in isolation, without having first sufficiently studied the piece as a whole.

[thepianonoob]

I can play the song at half speed without making mistakes, but for my exam I have to play it Allegro. Whenever I turn the metronome to 140 BPM, I can play small parts of it correctly at that speed and then totally screw up some notes in other parts. And no, I CANNOT choose another piece "because I am not a virtuous pianist". I have an exam, thank you. In this exam I am required to play this piece as well as Beethoven's "Appassionata" 1st movement, which I can do already.

It is not that I am not a virtuous pianist, but I just have not perfected this piece and needed help doing so. And thank you magic_sonata for your help and encouragement. I was simply getting frustrated because of my darn right hand. I think I shouldn't have sat down on the bench of doom for 5 hours nonstop trying to figure out that piece.

I finally have started to enjoy playing this (even the dreaded section). Thank you everyone for the advice!!!! 

thepianonoob

[awesom_o]

Can you play either hand separately in a tempo you are pleased with?

[thepianonoob]

The left hand is EXTREMELY easy to play at speed, while the right hand is slightly trickier. It is when I am playing hands together when I make most of my mistakes.

[awesom_o]

It is when I am playing hands together when I make most of my mistakes.

Then maybe it's just a matter of playing it at the speed you are comfortable making no mistakes (half speed), and repeating over and over, each time increasing the speed by 1 or 2 BPM.

[lazyfingers]

Edit: I retract all my comments once I re-read your post and found that you only started learning this etude yesterday.

[dima_76557]

Whenever I turn the metronome to 140 BPM

How do you divide those 140 BPM? I like having technical reserves too, but my Chopin edition says: half-note = 69 only. I think that any other pulse than half-note pulse may be part of your problem.

[flashyfingers]

How do you divide those 140 BPM? I like having technical reserves too, but my Chopin edition says: half-note = 69 only. I think that any other pulse than half-note pulse may be part of your problem.

if you do it in 4/4 then the 16th notes are the sub division of the quarter note pulse, instead of what they are in 2/2..., but the left hand can simultaneously keep the 2/2 feel, changing the weaker beats of 4/4 (beat 2 and 4) to upbeats in the left hand

[dima_76557]

if you do it in 4/4 then the 16th notes are the sub division of the quarter note pulse, instead of what they are in 2/2..., but the left hand can simultaneously keep the 2/2 feel, changing the weaker beats of 4/4 (beat 2 and 4) to upbeats in the left hand

I know that very well, but I have objections against this procedure as a way to solve the problems in this masterwork.

The right hand benefits just as much as the left hand from the 2/2 pulse since body coordination changes drastically because of the musical flow. Although the absolute tempo is the same, 4/4 suggests "speed" while 2/2 does not. It is the MUSICAL requirements that are going to solve the problems, not unnatural speed of the busy right-hand details at a set metronome (!?!) AGAINST the indicated pulse.

[stevensk]

That's the point of the darn thing... You're supposed have that kind of a problem with it. It would be quite pointless otherwise.

"Pianoob" said, if you read it, that "its almost impossible to play fast". Therefore I suspect its almost impossible for him to reach success whith that pice.
So, Pianoob choose a piece that is almost possible to play good.

[flashyfingers]

I know that very well, but I have objections against this procedure as a way to solve the problems in this masterwork.

The right hand benefits just as much as the left hand from the 2/2 pulse since body coordination changes drastically because of the musical flow. Although the absolute tempo is the same, 4/4 suggests "speed" while 2/2 does not. It is the MUSICAL requirements that are going to solve the problems, not unnatural speed of the busy right-hand details at a set metronome (!?!) AGAINST the indicated pulse.

I will not argue with that but would like to add that

it would be beneficial for the left hand, to practice to the metronome. You don't want to drag the melody because the right hand is struggling to follow the melody. That being said, it is important to know the right hand well at any tempo and practice it slowly for accuracy. But the left hand should be exact, (yet not necessarily strict...)

also, playing in 4/4 in the right can be a middle step or an exercise, or just a means of learning how to count this piece, certainly not the solution to any problem of musical feeling or musicality.

[whistlestop]

I wonder if thepianonoob has tried the Cortot edition of these etudes? The print is rubbish but each etude is preceded by a couple of pages of exercises designed to help tackle the piece. The Cortot exercises might be available online somewhere if you look for them.
In my experience, the exercises are rather harder than the pieces but they do break down the sticky bits into manageable chunks and help you to work on them.

I understood the typo to be 'virtuoso' rather than virtuous; I think the latter meaning is rather easier to attain!
Either that or they meant vitreous which would have another meaning altogether....

[pianoman53]

Okay, people. He said he played it for one day. Who can play one of the most difficult etudes up to tempo after one day?

[gyzzzmo]

Pianonoob, if you make statements like 'impossible to play' after only one day of trying, please go to some site for kids instead and say silly things there.
Also if you need this piece for an exam, consider asking a teacher??

[awesom_o]

Pianonoob, if you make statements like 'impossible to play' after only one day of trying, please go to some site for kids instead and say silly things there.
Also if you need this piece for an exam, consider asking a teacher??

+1!

[isyriel]

try this