Perfect pitch question... very vague :S

[nanabush]

Hey everybody!  I was wondering if any fellow forum-members who have perfect pitch (or people who just know what is happening) can enlighten me on something:

So I do have perfect pitch, but something I've noticed with it is that the letter name and sound are so engrained, that if I hear the name "C" I can only hear a C.  Singers with relative pitch are able to transpose at sight, and likely do so because they can translate intervallic content easily between keys (for example, asking the accompanist to change keys on the spot).

I kind of messed around with this idea with my electric upright.  It has a 'transpose' function, and you can tweak the tuning by cents, to really give it a bizarre tonal center.  Anyways, when I was playing in a 'new key', with middle C sounding like an Eb for example, my brain acted as if I had forgotten everything in music theory.  Playing a C major chord, and hearing an Eb major chord made me panic, and I then played a Bb chord or Ab chord by reflex... but because these were tuned too, the Bb sounded like a Dd chord and the Ab sounded like a Cb chord... it completely messed my brain up.  The thing is though... I feel that someone without perfect pitch would not be phased by this.  So I kind of think I've solidified my opinion that perfect pitch does have a huge downside.

It's just been a thought stirring in my mind over the years doing my degree  and especially over the past few months with messing with the natural tuning of the piano.  I found that I could easily hit the 'right' pitch without reference, but that was just about it.  Ear training was very easy, but being able to sing a baritone part in a choir with a score in C major, but with the conductor asking us to sing it down a major second... I literally could not do it.  I'd sing the written pitch and then *quickly correct it to the one that fit the harmony.  And again with my keyboard, the new tuning felt like I was tripping out playing  

I'm wondering if relative pitch (without being tethered to knowing the note name of a sound) is superior to perfect pitch... like I feel that people with relative pitch have very malleable ears, can pick up harmonies the same as people with perfect pitch, can just about decipher the key of a piece without reference, but can also not be bothered with the idea that a piece written in C may sound like it's in F#.

Drinks are flowing, I was trying to explain this to a few friends, felt like typing it out might make more sense :/

Has this idea crossed anyone else's mind before?  Perfect pitch being almost more of a 'party trick' than anything, and relative pitch being more versatile.

I'll probably read this tomorrow and paraphrase it, but if anyone has any comments on this, I'd be really interested!  It's been irking me forever now, and most people just kinda dismiss it.

**Sorry: I'd like to add.  I think part of it is having tied the visual aspect of the keyboard to the sound and note names for 10+ years, that it's a combination of muscle/auditory/visual memory.  If I play a C chord, and hear anything but a C chord, my brain has a minor freakout, makes me pinpoint the new key, and then if I want to play the dominant chord, my hands will go the dominant position of what my brain hears.... it won't go to the dominant of the physical chord my hands are playing.  If that makes any sense..

[awesom_o]

The thing you need to take into account, is that everybody has relative pitch.

Having perfect pitch doesn't give you an excuse to have poor relative pitch.

In my opinion, having perfect pitch means that you should have BETTER relative pitch than an ordinary musician who has decent relative pitch, but no actual ability to recognize pitch without a reference note in the first place.

Of course, if you have perfect pitch, then transposing at sight will cause you to experience a near painful level of cognitive dissonance. Other musicians without pitch recognition will be able to transpose at sight without experiencing this painful effect.

Does this really mean you would trade your perfect pitch for their relative pitch?

Or does it actually just mean that you need to improve your ability to transpose (i.e. improve your relative pitch)?

Have you ever played a harpsichord tuned to Baroque pitch?

[invictious]

The thing you need to take into account, is that everybody has relative pitch.

Having perfect pitch doesn't give you an excuse to have poor relative pitch.

In my opinion, having perfect pitch means that you should have BETTER relative pitch than an ordinary musician who has decent relative pitch, but no actual ability to recognize pitch without a reference note in the first place.

Of course, if you have perfect pitch, then transposing at sight will cause you to experience a near painful level of cognitive dissonance. Other musicians without pitch recognition will be able to transpose at sight without experiencing this painful effect.

Does this really mean you would trade your perfect pitch for their relative pitch?

Or does it actually just mean that you need to improve your ability to transpose (i.e. improve your relative pitch)?

Have you ever played a harpsichord tuned to Baroque pitch?

Perfect pitch 'sufferer' here.

Actually in terms of relative pitch it is a different matter.

You would know that due to temperaments etc., notes are actually tuned in relation to each other rather than their 'absolute' pitch. This problem is actually quite annoying when one is, for example, singing in an a cappella group. The one with perfect pitch may be singing the correct note, but it will be out of tune in relation to the other notes in terms of chordal harmony.

Relative pitch means knowing the relationship between the intervals in a major third. Perfect pitch would render a different result with the notes sounding slightly out of tune with each other even they the notes are correct.

Also, playing harpsichord tuned to Baroque pitch is very painful for the ears, as with listening to music on period instruments in Baroque tuning!

I am actually quite interested in knowing more about this topic! Please correct me if I am wrong!

[pianist1976]

IMHO perfect pitch (also named "absolute hearing" by many people, for instance in many European countries, including mine) is quite overrated, specially by some people (not everyone) who has it.

In my opinion what matters is to have a good internal hearing or not. I've had a relative pitch almost all my lifetime. I recognized the intervals or I really don't know how the heck I did it but I played pieces by ear. By the time I could get a piece by ear and, if I didn't know the key, I would play it involuntarily transposed to another key.

Since a few years ago I've acquired perfect pitch. It wasn't intended, just happened and I don't know the reason. Maybe my brain memorized the pitches and assigned them a label? Who knows... Anyway that hasn't make me feel a better musician now.

So, back to the original question, I understand you: when I was younger I was able to play anything on a transposed keyboard (such a digital piano). Now I'm unable to do it because my fingers unconsciously start to try to find the notes that my inner ear and/or memory are expecting to hear. Said that, I don't think I have now a greater ability to get pieces by ear than when I had a relative pitch.

Just my two cents... (never better said...   )

[awesom_o]

You would know that due to temperaments etc., notes are actually tuned in relation to each other rather than their 'absolute' pitch. This problem is actually quite annoying when one is, for example, singing in an a cappella group. The one with perfect pitch may be singing the correct note, but it will be out of tune in relation to the other notes in terms of chordal harmony.

So in the context of that a cappella group, the person with perfect pitch is NOT singing the 'correct' note if he or she is out of tune with the rest of the choir.

Just because one is proficient on the piano does NOT give that person the excuse to be UNAWARE of what is called 'just intonation', or 'true intonation'. A string quartet or an a cappella choir tune to each other, not to some stupid piano. If there is a pianist in the choir who insists THEIR pitch is correct and everyone else is INCORRECT....well.... that pianist certainly wouldn't be welcome in MY choir

This is why I recommend pianists study secondary and even tertiary instruments (mine are cello, recorder, and singing), so that they can know more about being in tune than just calling their piano technician and paying him $100!

[j_menz]

Out of curiosity, is everyone's perfect pitch tuned to A=440? Is it modern equal temperament?

[Bob]

I've wondered that.  Does it get set at some point? 

It sounds like a royal pain this way.  I've heard similar things from people with perfect pitch.

I've been wondering if it's possible to switch back and forth. Or use relative pitch and then still have the perfect pitch color on that.  This thread is sounding like perfect pitch is really attaching the specific pitch to a note name.

[invictious]

So in the context of that a cappella group, the person with perfect pitch is NOT singing the 'correct' note if he or she is out of tune with the rest of the choir.

Just because one is proficient on the piano does NOT give that person the excuse to be UNAWARE of what is called 'just intonation', or 'true intonation'. A string quartet or an a cappella choir tune to each other, not to some stupid piano. If there is a pianist in the choir who insists THEIR pitch is correct and everyone else is INCORRECT....well.... that pianist certainly wouldn't be welcome in MY choir

This is why I recommend pianists study secondary and even tertiary instruments (mine are cello, recorder, and singing), so that they can know more about being in tune than just calling their piano technician and paying him $100!

Did cello too!

It certainly was weird growing up learning how flatter E-flats and sharper D-sharps etc before learning and understanding temperaments! It has helped tons in my singing though!

I think it is necessary to differentiate between pitch memory/retention and perfect pitch. I suppose the former is knowing 'around' where an A is, whereas perfect pitch is knowing the exact tuning of A and being able to produce it.

Apparently the tune that perfect pitch is set on the 'cultural norm'. So if you were in Germany and listened to A=444 Hz all day, then yours would be set thereto. I'd imagine that if you were born way 'bach' (can't resist, sorry, but I mean around that period), you may have A=415 Hz, although the non-standard tunings would be an absolute pain in the behind.

My favourite example to tell people about perfect pitch is with the Ode to Joy example. A person without perfect pitch may recognise in relative terms, i.e. intervals:
da da (half step up)da (whole step up)da da (whole step down)da (half step down)da da

Whereas someone with perfect pitch will learn it as:
F# F# G A A G F# E

This is also what makes transposition so difficult. The former can do it on any starting note and still utter the pitch relations, whereas the latter must have D major otherwise...

[j_menz]

. I'd imagine that if you were born way 'bach' (can't resist, sorry, but I mean around that period),

Next time try harder. 

you may have A=415 Hz, although the non-standard tunings would be an absolute pain in the behind.

But how could they be? You'd have never heard anything else? Are you suggesting that there were a stack of perfect pitch enabled people who simply suffered in an out of tune world? Wouldn't they have complained/done something?

[invictious]

Next time try harder. 

But how could they be? You'd have never heard anything else? Are you suggesting that there were a stack of perfect pitch enabled people who simply suffered in an out of tune world? Wouldn't they have complained/done something?

I have tried my best, but I will handel it better next time. If I get a good one I will telemann.

I am not sure how different settings in perfect pitch came about. I am quite certain there are people who do have their pitches set to relatively less common tunings. There are many places which do not utilise the 'western scale' of music, and yet it would be shocking if there were no people who did not have perfect pitch in those contexts. Would their sense of perfect pitch be incorrect then?

(a genuine question, not a rhetorical one btw)

[awesom_o]

My perfect pitch isn't "set" to any particular tuning. Of course, I spend the most time on a piano tuned to 440, so I always have a fresh memory of exactly what that sounds like. However, I work on other instruments regularly enough that their intonations are also burned into my ear, so to speak. Since these other instruments are capable of much more beautiful and precise tuning than the piano, I prefer the sound of their voices, even if their overall capabilities are inferior to the those of the piano.

[coda_colossale]

Relative pitch and perfect pitch are totally independent. But when a normal guy should train a lot to obtain good relative pitch, you just learn the names of the intervals. Before you have the ability to transpose the pitch in the given interval, and do it instantly, movable do solfége is really a torture.

[ted]

A naive question from an aurally dense rank outsider - why cannot somebody with both relative and absolute pitch employ them at will, and switch either of them off at will ? Is it not simply an option ? If not, why not ? My teacher had both, coupled with an extraordinary short term memory. He never exhibited any conflict about it, but just used either one as required.

[nanabush]

Perfect pitch for me is almost as clear as someone seeing blue and in a flash being able to identify the name as 'blue'.  I don't color code keys, but some have very distinct moods if I am improvising or [trying] to write music.  I am able to disregard it (if there is a bigger picture, as in singing with a large group, or accompanying in a new key).  But being able to 'switch it off' I think is impossible.  I've been doing it for probably around 17-18 years, and it is literally as clear as seeing a blue sky, or a green leaf.  It's just part of the identity; I don't always say in my head "oh surely that is Db", but if I was asked to name it, I would be able to instantly.  If I'm listening to music for fun, I can break apart the harmonic layout and key/changes pretty easily, but don't always HAVE to do that.  It's just something readily available that I know my brain is automatically storing in its "RAM" haha.

I also may have given the wrong impression.  I am not completely hopeless at singing harmonies and transposing - I am pretty good at it, but I do know some people who have FAR from perfect pitch who can do that much more fluently than me.

My biggest concern was that when I transposed my piano, 'blue' was suddenly not blue...like imagine seeing the sky as green and the grass as blue, that kinda thing.  Playing C and hearing F# (or whatever) made my automated muscle-memory part freak out.  I was completely aware of the transposition, but it made it extremely difficult to play in the same style as I would had it been in the original tuning.  Every aspect of my playing was completely different, I felt like I had found new sounds... like hearing a true F# major glissando... things like that that normal piano technique CANNOT do.  Or some fast passages, chords that are inaccessible due to black/white key constraints, suddenly be available.  Again, this was directed more to people who like to mess around with their own brain.  I used the Black Key etude for example: some of my friends couldn't care less what key they heard it in.  Hearing that piece in C major sounded completely bizarre, and I was actually making more mistakes because the sound was so far off from the visual part of the keys.  I can play the piece without having the electric piano turned on, with my eyes closed (for the most part), but suddenly was thrown off completely when the Gb appeared to be Gb but was C natural.

===

In terms of singing with a choir, I've sort of realized it's because I didn't take singing lessons, so it wasn't something as normal for me as other people who in the choir.  I did play Clarinet and Alto Sax for 5-6 years throughout middle-high school, and do play the guitar (and can understand 'fine' tunings that the piano doesn't really experience).  For me it was more of a discovery of a new color pallet when playing.  There are certain lines or phrases that I'll 'go to' if I'm playing in d minor, that I can't physically play in F minor or B minor because of the layout of the keys.  But hearing them in a new key was almost like seeing a new face among people you already know.  It was just strange.

[ted]

I see. After reading that, I am aware of two things: the unfathomable complexity and diversity of the human brain and gratitude for being as I am. I wonder how the internal improvising, or generally creative process differs for those with absolute pitch. As the whole thing is a quale one way or the other, I do not expect to ever know. And as all anybody has to go on are the results, in turn dependent on the individual listening brain, it probably doesn't matter anyway. It's a bit like a man wondering what it feels like to be a woman, or a tall person trying to imagine he is short.   

[nanabush]

Really well put.  I can't ever make concise responses, but you really summed up what I was likely going to get to in a few posts 

[Bob]

Still reading.  Interesting thread.

For non-PP people, maybe it's like when we see the words for a color in the wrong color. 


Like so...



That starts messing with you after a while.

[Bob]

I did play Clarinet and Alto Sax for 5-6 years throughout middle-high school, and do play the guitar (and can understand 'fine' tunings that the piano doesn't really experience). 

How did you handle that?  Bb clarinet and Eb alto sax?  Didn't that mess with you a bit?

For transposition, I'm thinking of the concert pitch and then those two instruments' pitches hovering above it.  Are you hearing it like that?  Ex. Concert Bb.... but the Bb clarinets read C above that.... Eb saxes read G above that....

Or do you just adjust so written C on a clarinet is "C on a clarinet" and that happens to a Bb pitch really.  Except you'd have to do that for sax too.  That might get confusing.


Haha.... Or just refer to everything as "Concert ____" pitch.  You'll look more sophisticated. 
Director:  Ok, clarinets.  Start at rehearsal 1 on your Bb.
PP student:  Are you referring to that concert Ab?

[outin]

For non-PP people, maybe it's like when we see the words for a color in the wrong color. 


Like so...



That starts messing with you after a while.

Now I wonder what's wrong with my brain because that doesn't bother me at all...I don't have perfect colour? In fact now that I think of it I often perceive colours slightly differently than others...I think I have good relative colour though, if I have something to compare to I can easily tell them apart

[nanabush]

The color code example is kind of like that for me!  But with the notion of 'perfect color'... I think that people's eyes are more developed than their ears (and whatever brain functions go along with it).  If you see a color that is slightly off, you can probably tell that "ok this is a darker shade of blue, or a paler green than grass green"

Pretty cool that this thread took off! I think I'm going to start doing some research into this on the side, see if a lot of people have done more than have a concrete definition of perfect pitch.

In terms of the sax/clarinet, it never really bothered me because I was a little younger when I started learning them.  Perfect pitch really started bugging me in the first year at University, when we were doing LOTS of sight singing and transposition at sight.  It was a mix of that and people saying "omg you have perfect pitch, you must be a god at piano"... the two do not go hand in hand haha.  They compliment each other really nicely, but having accurate response to different frequencies doesn't necessarily allow me to play a Liszt Etude with more ease 

Just for another example - and this might be a more common one: for my sight singing class in third year, the 'exam' pieces used intervals such as minor 7ths, augmented fourths, and had key changes mid piece (they were tonal though if the intervals were big... we weren't all singers so they didn't want to completely demolish us).  My problem was that because my singing range is in the baritone, I can probably squeak out an E above middle C if I want to embarrass myself, and not go any higher.  Some of these pieces would go from mid baritone range up to a high G or A... the examiner could give a 'reference' pitch down an interval if you wanted to sight sing lower.  I could NOT do that if my life depended on it.  In the 'stranger' intervals, my voice would kind of 'autotune' itself to what I was seeing on the page, and then I would quickly correct it to the pitch I 'should' be singing in the lower key that suits my voice.

My solution (because I'm a genius): I pretended it was written in bass clef (an E in the treble clef is a G in the bass... and I never had issues dropping it down a sixth because my lower range can go pretty low).  So for a piece in Eb major in the treble clef, I'd trick my brain into reading it as G major in the bass clef (the only issue were accidentals, but I'd take that over constantly correcting every note).

So if it was: Eb - F - G - Ab in treble, I'd sing it as: G - A - B - C in bass clef.

People would say "holy crap that sounds like a lot of work, how can you just read it like that", but my dilemma was "holy crap how can you just sing a piece in Eb major in A major and not be alarmed by it".

...I REALLY like the picture attached earlier... that's an excellent 'illustration' of my problem haha.  My problem is that the words attached to the colors are the constraints like the musical notation.  If we were given 12 colors and 12 words associated, and they were scrambled up like this, it would probably be very difficult to QUICKLY say what colors each word were rather than what the words say.  I also think this is probably due to the way we are conditioned - text is objective and colors are a little more subjective.  We will automatically focus on the words and the colors of the word are secondary.
...
...
I think with music, for a lot of people, it's the contrary.  We want music to be interpreted, it's more subjective.  If it sounds right (and this is what a LOT of students will do when they wing it on a sight singing exam) then they pass.  'Sounds right' meaning they stayed in key, whatever key they ended up singing in.

I've gotten so used to listening more objectively "is this EXACTLY the way it's written" and I will put that first over "does it sound good" if I am sight reading or listening with a score in hand.  So when I'm sight singing (which I don't do too much of anymore haha...) my mind is saying "that Eb on the page better sound like an Eb", and then I have to take an extra step to bypass it.

[Bob]

Now I wonder what's wrong with my brain because that doesn't bother me at all...I don't have perfect colour? In fact now that I think of it I often perceive colours slightly differently than others...I think I have good relative colour though, if I have something to compare to I can easily tell them apart

I took a test on a computer where they flashed words in colors (random short lengths of time, random space between)  like that and you identified either the word for one part or the actual color in another part.  It got really annoying and I had to focus on blocking out one element.

[outin]

I took a test on a computer where they flashed words in colors (random short lengths of time, random space between)  like that and you identified either the word for one part or the actual color in another part.  It got really annoying and I had to focus on blocking out one element.

I've done the Stroop test too before. It really should be in one's own language to be reliable. No matter how fluent in another, one usually has not developed associations as strong.