Advice as to advanced practice - jazz minor 2 5 1s

[zerozero]

Hello all,

Was looking for a pro teacher, haven't found one yet, will search, but in the meantime, some advice please...

I am looking into minor II V I's

I either use Band in a box or go solo piano 12 keys always.

I took to piano about six years ago. I played sax before... Don't really read for piano except real book, treble clef. Theory is ok. I did lots of work on scales and chords.

 I would love some observations on my current practice regime , here goes...

 Goals: master impro jazz blues pop/rock....

Get a set list together, jazz ballads or thereabouts.

Respond to any chord instantly

 I have about six ballads going, all memorised. Georgia, Soul Eyes, Summertime, Berkeley Square Nightingale and a couple more..

I used to run scales and chords all the time but I found a really fruitful way of modifying this tiresome task. What I do now is take a simple tune or nursery rhyme and play it by ear taking it through all keys or at least a couple of hard ones.  Three blind mice, Silent Night, Greensleeves... What I realise is that to harmonise a tune you can usually work exclusively with the root fourth and fifth chords  - I IV V. Its good to be able to grab these anywhere, in various voicings.

Some tunes I have given the full treatment to (with a bit of advice  via UTube), but others - such as Summertime and still  in a kind of stiff prototype form. The melody and chords are there, but there is a little decoration, not much.

As an aside I spent a lot of time on blues and 1 4 5s. I needed to give this all a rest. So I turned to  251's and took them through twelve keys.

 I began noticing that my  major II V I impro  is 'ok' but its all a bit diatonic - too diatonic.
I can run the chords and scales, and some figures that are closed around a couple of chord tones. Sometimes I add in a few chromatics, but my understanding of chord subs and things like upper structure triads, although there in theory, is not happening on the playing field.

I was aware that  my diminished, altered scales  and whole tone scales were stiff and laboured.

I decided to take the minor II V Is though all twelve keys.  I did this to sretch my skills especially with diminished and altered scales.
Very very slowly things are starting to roll  in this new 'minor' setting, but I am not sure,

its still awfully muddy in those minor halls...!!!!

Firstly what IS a minor  251?

My books tell me its  half diminished II, an altered dominant, then a Im6.

The trouble I am getting is everything jumping around like eels, its hard to nail things.

This is my mini method with a chord sequence:

Run triads, run triads this way and that way.
Run the mode this way and that way
Five finger patterns in closed position
Decorations, bonding.....

Voice the chords so that they are in the middle octaves ( e.g Ab's in second inversions)

Now as far as I can see, its pretty clear below perfect fifth. After this, well it seems 'anything goes' and that feels like (in my daughters language) is confuzzling.

There seems to be two issues. When a chord is written is it fully spelled? Secondly, what scales to use.

So we have so many minors. Although in diatonic worlds it seems to be the 'natural minor' is king,  in other words we have the harmonic and the melodic minor and we have the 'diatonic minors' - meaning those modes which possess both a minor 3 and 7 - Dorian, Phrygian and Locrian.

It sounds to my ears as if mostly, possibly always, these minors can sub for each other above the fifth?

So looking at the progression the half diminished chord at the beginning (call it a D hd) is easiest served with  a locrian, although the diminished brings with it a feel like an Escherian stairwell. Diminished features the sixth of the chord and leaves out the b7. I guess you could say its not a legit minor, as it has the third, but not the seventh, but I think its got enough tension to suggest enough darkening.

The next chord is ( I am told) an Altered chord. (ooooooh! scary stuff!). This is the second mode of the melodic minor - nest pas? Well this is all well and good as long as your PLAYING in melodic minor, but as a lot of these 2 5 1, warp around and the dominant  is changed, this again is confuzzling. Playing an augmented triad is easy enough and it can take a dominant seventh. Aurally its interesting to me that you can simply play a dominant seventh, you would not be the best player in the band but you would get let out of the cupboard.

The last chord is the one chord and this is often I6. Putting in that sixth sounds to me like an elbow in someones ribs. Strictly spelling, the Dorian minor is the one that has the major sixth, not the natural minor (which is often the 'key of a piece'.

Now some say  that the major 7th of the (supposedly minor) key, B,   is used on the five chord to introduce a dominant motion to the I chord.
In classical music the melodic minor has two forms, the major 7th on the way up (more tension) and the b7, on the way - meltingly - down.

In Jazz the melodic minor has a raised 7th both ways.

Others they say that the whole change is based on harmonic minor...


Whew!

The window is murky....

But lets recap the essentials:

II chord - locrian or diminished

V chord raise the fifth.

one chord: Raise the sixth.


Its possible to add chromatic tones in a methodical way to all changes, but that's really not what I am seeking, it's more what scales as first choice, and again what binds the 3 chords together?

Something I don't understand yet is the way chords are written down. I hear people say things like "oh yeah a b9 chord always call for a raised 5", Really? is that so? how do begin to learn all that then?


Bit of a ramble, but if anyone wishes to chip in..

[falala]

You need to remember that there isn't one right answer to these things. Different players will take the same basic progression, add different extensions to it and use different scales over it. Sometimes this might be worked out with bandmates in advance in some detail; sometimes it's just something somebody does on the spot and other react to by ear.

I don't really think in terms of modes upon chord roots most of the time when I play. But if I did, I guess my first response to a half-diminished II (ie II in a minor key) would be locrian. Something like the diminished scale you might then add for particular chromatic colour.

As for chord I in minor: the added major 6th is basically one way of colouring up the chord a bit, making it slightly more dissonant and interesting. There are other ways, such as the minor 7th, added 9th or even sometimes the major 7th over a minor chord I. Choosing between these is often a lot to do with what the melody is doing. If it's dorian in flavour that might lead you to I6. If it's bluesy, to I7, and so on.

These added notes came about because as jazz developed, it acquired an assumption of the four-note chord as the basic sonority. Once that assumption takes root, plain triads start to sound naff and childish. If you look at source charts to jazz standards from the 30s and 40s, chord I is often just notated as a triad. But jazz players almost never play it that way. Once all the other chords are four-note chords and thus contain some dissonance by definition, chord I also needs a little dissonance to keep the harmonic sound world consistent. If I6 provides the right kind of that for the context, then use it. If it doesn't, then use something else. There's no rule (other than taste, and respecting the demands of the melody).

Incidentally the same is true in major keys. In a basic chart, your II - V - I might be notated Dm7 - G7 - C. But the I won't normally be played as a triad; it'll be played as C6, C6/9, C7, Cmaj7 etc depending on the context and what sounds appropriate.

[zerozero]

thank you for the reply.. I have read it several times and will take what i can from it.

I am beginning to see that the minor II V I morphs in many ways. If the V chord has a major third this turns it into a more dominant sound and introduces the major 7th of the key. This could imply either melodic or harmonic minor, but not natural minor. Adding a raised third and a raised fifth gives the minor third of the key, whereas a 'standard' perfect fifth would give a second of the key. So, the raised fifth sounds the tonality (m3) of a minor key.

But what happens with the one chord? If it is a 'natural' minor key then this would be spelt as a flat third and flat seventh. On the route toward this statement of the one chord the flat seventh has been contradicted (by the major third of 5#5).

 You can make things fit of course, but the trouble comes if the band are playing s b6 snd you go major, or if you play a major 7th and everyone else plays a flat 7 - worst of all is both blunders. Sin City.

Ok  - use your ears - yes this is fine, but it would be better to also understand.

How do you get over this? My head has never quite licked this.

thank you for reading..

z

[Bob]

Frank Mantooth, Jazz Voicings

https://www.amazon.com/Voicings-Jazz-Keyboard-Frank-Mantooth/dp/0793534852

I think that's got them all written out in different ways.  I liked that book.

[zerozero]

Thanks for the book Bob - I have  got it coming in the post. Reasonably priced too.

[Bob]

I was surprised on that price.  I didn't "master" it, but I did really like it when I used it.

It was the chords in each key.  And then being away of which note in that chord (root, 3rd, 5th, 7th) each was, as well as the step of the scale.  I think that's how I was using it. 

[falala]

I am beginning to see that the minor II V I morphs in many ways. If the V chord has a major third this turns it into a more dominant sound and introduces the major 7th of the key. This could imply either melodic or harmonic minor, but not natural minor.

Correct.

Adding a raised third and a raised fifth gives the minor third of the key, whereas a 'standard' perfect fifth would give a second of the key. So, the raised fifth sounds the tonality (m3) of a minor key.

Also correct. But at the same time, it's really important to keep returning the question of melodic style. I think this is the part you're missing.

Jazz isn't like classical music, which evolved some time around the late 17th century into a total, consistent language in which melody and harmony always operate synchronously and there is an answer to every problem that is both melodically and harmonically logical. Jazz evolved out of various oral traditions like blues, folk and gospel, and when people like Gershwin and Ellington came along and wrote jazz tunes with classical tonal progressions, they were still working with the raw material of those traditions. That material was often pentatonic or based on blue notes. It was fundamentally melodic in nature, not harmonic. So there's always a tug-of-war between melody and harmony in jazz. That tug of war is part of the style - it's what makes it sound like jazz. It's also how you can instantly spot when a classical musical tries to play jazz and doesn't understand it.

In terms of the current issue, the key thing about that raised 5th in chord V is that it's the minor third of the minor pentatonic / blues scale. So the decision to use it is not just a technical, harmonic decision. It's a melodic and stylistic decision often based on whether the melody is bluesy in nature at that point. Think of "Angel Eyes" as it approaches the cadence: "And why my angle eyes ain't here". There can't be any other chord than V7#5 at "eyes ain't" because the bluesy gesture of the minor third approaching the tonic is so much the point of the melody.

But what happens with the one chord? If it is a 'natural' minor key then this would be spelt as a flat third and flat seventh. On the route toward this statement of the one chord the flat seventh has been contradicted (by the major third of 5#5).

Yes, that's certainly a teaser and one that I sometimes struggle with. I certainly can't feel OK about playing I with a minor 7th after a major chord on V. It just seems wrong.

One solution is I6, which doesn't contradict that raised 7th. Another is I with a MAJOR 7th. It's a spicy chord, to be sure, but can sound good. It's also a good starting point for more adventrous extensions. Try I with a major 7th, major 9th and augmented 11th - ie in C minor, a B minor chord over the C minor chord. Then you're in Stan Kenton upper-structure-triad territory, and things can get really interesting...

But if you really want the minor 7th there, one solution is the #9 chord over V. Again, the only way to make sense of this is melodic/stylistic. If your tune, impro and general sound world are bluesy, so the minor 7th is kicking around melodically despite the classical tonal logic of the chord progressions, then when you combine that note with Chord V7, you get V7#9. ie - the minor 7th of the scale which is actually a MINOR 10TH above the root of V gets respelt as an augmented 9th. That note can then stick around over chord I if you like and there isn't the same problem with negating the major 7th.

[zerozero]

Thank you for two considered replies fatala.

I have been boiling all this down.  It now seems to me, on a superficial level (2 dimensionally),  that  this is about choices for the fifth and sixth notes of the minor key signature - as they appear in these three changes.

Whether to go with a natural sixth or flat sixth, whether to go with a b7 or major 7.

Seems to me that many times BOTH the sevenths are legit and can be played together.

Yet the sixth 'has' to be right, a flat sixth over the bands major six is  - 'bad news'

 Looking at all this more three dimensionally, the moving of this one little tone  in C the B instead of Bb, creates seven new modes. I am putting time into memorising these.

But, there seems to be a whole new world there too. All the things I have learnt about major scale harmony, seem overturned. The 1, IV, V of a natural minor can be three minor triads - symmetry; yet the 1 IV V of a melodic minor breaks this symmetry. Also there seems to a strong leaning in minor to the three (m3) chord. A triad on one and a triad on minor three spells a I7 chord, this can be complemented with a further minor triad built on five, and a major triad on the flat 7 (of the key), I 3 5 7 1,  if you will.. This is all modally natural minor, and pulls away in a different direction from standard major diatonic changes. I suppose it would be 6,1,3, 5, 6 in the relative major, not a common fairway.

I have found my 'exotic' scales need a little brushing up, so I spent the week on diminished and wholetone scales. I plan also to tackly the altered scale again and get that well oiled, but am now very sure of its settings in minor tonality.

I plan to take each mode of the melodic  in turn and study it - for example I hear the II mode of the melodic features a sus 4 and often uses a Phrygian scale sometimes with a raised six. But this sends my head into a spin as the Phrygian would be a two of a DORIAN minor (AAAGH!) which gives more credence to the major 6 of the one chord, but would of course have a flat seven.

Its a lot absorb and its easy to  slip up, as I say change one little note, the leading tone of the key, and all hell breaks loose in terms of consequences.

 I am all ears - thanks for the input.

Z