why did gould love bach so much?

[lisztomania]

he said that nothing moved him on a more consistent basis than bach's music.  im talking strictly about his keyboard music.  what is moving and emotional about it? i can see some emotion coming from his partitas... but his french suites and english suites? what's emotional about them? i don't really understand what so moving about these works really.  how did he see this stuff more moving than a rachmaninoff piano concerto or anything by chopin or something? how??

[visitor]

context is key.

https://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/7687/doctrine-of-the-affections

the V.

[awesom_o]

There is a LOT of music that you need to play yourself in order to understand.

When I was younger, I too, failed to understand the beauty of Bach's music. Playing it always seemed like a bit of a chore.... whereas I always enjoyed playing Chopin!

The older I've gotten, the more deeply I've come to love the Baroque and Classical periods. I still love the music of Chopin and Rachmaninoff, and I play more of it now than I ever did before!

However, I find that the more Bach that I play, the more interested in Bach AND many, many other composers I become. No other composer has such a benevolent effect upon my work!

There are MANY different levels of emotion in music. "My Heart Will Go On" is an EXTREMELY emotional song....especially the first time you hear it! However, chances are very high that, the more deeply you study it, the more frequently you play it, and the more often you sing it, the LESS emotional depth depth it contains! It will always be emotional, but you will find it emotionally shallow, emotionally cheap.

When I was 12, I loved Evanesence. I hated Mozart, and was lukewarm towards Bach!
I was a smaller being then.... and my mind lacked the power to understand and appreciate deep emotion. I could only love the cheap stuff.

Now that I'm over twice that age, I cannot enjoy cheap emotion in the same way!

So I'm learning all of the WTC, all of the French and English suites, all of the Partitas, and all of the cello suites! Bach can be extremely addictive, I warn you!

There were MANY MANY good things I didn't like or appreciate when I was young: tomatoes, avocados, beer, wine, cocktails, Mozart, Bach..... you name it, I didn't like it!

So all I can say is.... in time, young grasshopper, you will love the Old masters as much or more than you currently love Liszt!

Think of it as being something to look forward to in old age

[stevensk]

"what is moving and emotional about it"


-If you listen to it, you will hear it 

[lisztomania]

i've already tried obviously

[lisztomania]

thank's awesome_o !
but is there anyway you could explain in words what the true emotion is in bachs stuff?

[outin]

He did use quite a lot of drugs, that must have had an effect on his brain chemistry...

[classicalnhiphop]

Just curious, where did you see that Gould used a lot of drugs?
Back to the OP and what "visitor" said.  There's always something making me want to listen to his music one more time, for whatever reason.  I never get tired of hearing the music, as with some other stuff, like rach or Chopin, if i've heard the music many times, or ever three or four times, it doesn't have the same feel to it... it's a bit difficult to explain i guess

[outin]

Just curious, where did you see that Gould used a lot of drugs?

It's quite common knowledge.

I do not think that he liked Bach because of it, but it might have had something to do with him becoming obsessed in such an eccentric way...

[awesom_o]

I will try to explain in words, but, as the famous saying goes, talking about music is like dancing about architecture!  

I find J. S. Bach to be the most original and innovative of all composers. He was the master weaver! I do not think that anyone else ever mastered the Art so thoroughly. Even the greatest of the later masters seemed to be more comfortable writing in certain keys than in others... whereas Bach explored each and every key without exception.

The magnitude and complexity of his weaving abilities continue to astound us, more than a quarter of a millennium since his passing! His productivity as an individual was beyond compare. Imagine being able to feed 20 children on the strength of your music alone! The power of his industriousness was truly beyond anything I can imagine. It's like trying to imagine God. It defies imagination!

Bach's music is not easy to categorize, emotionally. It is always a divine mixture of joy and sadness... an extremely realistic portrayal of human life!
Even in the most despairing Lament, it is never downright gloomy. There is always hope!
Even at its most joyful, there are hints of suffering!

Understanding the true emotion in Bach's music is a lifelong undertaking! He holds secrets that even the greatest of modern scholars still need more time to understand!

Bach's music propels us to new heights whenever we study it! No human being is perfect... Bach came the closest to perfection of any human being... and in his work we may find the long, arduous road to perfection... that we will never reach the end of.....for there IS no end.
However, once you have glimpsed the road, you must walk in its direction! You cannot turn back! You cannot turn back in your quest to be a better artist! And you can never be a better artist than Bach! His body was human but his soul was........Angelic!

[classicalnhiphop]

Bach's music is not easy to categorize, emotionally. It is always a divine mixture of joy and sadness... an extremely realistic portrayal of human life!
Even in the most despairing Lament, it is never downright gloomy. There is always hope!
Even at its most joyful, there are hints of suffering!

Understanding the true emotion in Bach's music is a lifelong undertaking! He holds secrets that even the greatest of modern scholars still need more time to understand!

i can see this for a lot of his choral works, those are freaking divine.  But how do you see this in keyboard works like the french suites, particularly 6, for instance.  It just seems like "happy or "joyful" to me.  Could you help me out with this?

[awesom_o]

 I can't say that there isn't sometimes a PREDOMINANT emotion in a given work by Bach... often there is! However, two artists could give very different interpretations of the same work according to their personal taste and life experience, and both could be equally valid.

For instance, I find that the way Richter plays the Allemande from the 6th French Suite has a more introspective character, one that is slightly tinged with sadness. Gould's playing of the same Allemande strikes me as being more jubilant!

Quite a lot of Baroque music has this kind of interpretive freedom... but J.S. Bach in particular is wonderfully open to interpretation, in the most genuine sense of the term.

Later music, especially beginning with the Classical period, I find to be more objective in terms of interpretation. That is also wonderful, but I sometimes miss the freedom of the Baroque when I play later music.

[gustaaavo]

Great question! I can't talk with authority about Gould's self (no one can, of course), so I'll answer personally.
What kind of pleasure does Bach's music offer?
Short answer: Intellectual pleasure mainly.
Long answer: https://skepticalphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/01/higher-and-lower-pleasures-in-mill.html A very "high" pleasure.

[outin]

Later music, especially beginning with the Classical period, I find to be more objective in terms of interpretation. That is also wonderful, but I sometimes miss the freedom of the Baroque when I play later music.

That must one reason why I like Baroque music so much! And not only to play myself, but hear so many different ways to interpret the same piece.

Romantic composers wanted to add the emotional content into the music as precisely as possible with dynamics and other means and then we are all supposed to recreate that. It gets tiring after a while.

I guess it's a bit like the difference between reading a book and watching a movie. How much is left to your own imagination...

[mjames]

Idk all this talking is kinda pointless, you have to play him to understand. I thought the same thing about Bach "man he is so boring, what's so great about him anyways chopin is way better than this!", and then I learned his invention in c; my first bach ever and after that I was mesmerized. After playing him once bach's music just "opened up" to me idk why and how, but you have to play him in order to understand. That's my verdict.

[cbreemer]

I will try to explain in words, but, as the famous saying goes, talking about music is like dancing about architecture!  

I find J. S. Bach to be the most original and innovative of all composers. He was the master weaver! I do not think that anyone else ever mastered the Art so thoroughly. Even the greatest of the later masters seemed to be more comfortable writing in certain keys than in others... whereas Bach explored each and every key without exception.

The magnitude and complexity of his weaving abilities continue to astound us, more than a quarter of a millennium since his passing! His productivity as an individual was beyond compare. Imagine being able to feed 20 children on the strength of your music alone! The power of his industriousness was truly beyond anything I can imagine. It's like trying to imagine God. It defies imagination!

Bach's music is not easy to categorize, emotionally. It is always a divine mixture of joy and sadness... an extremely realistic portrayal of human life!
Even in the most despairing Lament, it is never downright gloomy. There is always hope!
Even at its most joyful, there are hints of suffering!

Understanding the true emotion in Bach's music is a lifelong undertaking! He holds secrets that even the greatest of modern scholars still need more time to understand!

Bach's music propels us to new heights whenever we study it! No human being is perfect... Bach came the closest to perfection of any human being... and in his work we may find the long, arduous road to perfection... that we will never reach the end of.....for there IS no end.
However, once you have glimpsed the road, you must walk in its direction! You cannot turn back! You cannot turn back in your quest to be a better artist! And you can never be a better artist than Bach! His body was human but his soul was........Angelic!

I wish I'd said all that !  The love and awe for Bach often only comes with age. Most youngsters obsessed with Chopin and Liszt (I used to be one of those) just can't understand. But one day Bach will grip you by the scruff and not let go, whether you play him or not (although it does help when you do). He always gets you in the end ! Unless you have a heart of stone. In addition to all said, Bach wrote some of the most heavenly beautiful melodies of all times. Of course you need to look beyond the piano repertoire. The organ chorales, suites, cantatas, concerti, passions, the Mass, everything. It is an endless treasure trove one is grateful to wallow in. Oh Bach, I'm ranting

[awesom_o]

Of course you need to look beyond the piano repertoire.

I'm starting to think many pianists would rather slit their own wrists than look BEYOND the piano repertoire         

Of course.... this is simply not true for the good/great ones!

Just for the record.... when I was young(er), I too was obsessed with Chopin and Liszt!
Becoming obsessed with Bach simply deepened my love, respect, and admiration for Franz and Frederick!

[cbreemer]

I'm starting to think many pianists would rather slit their own wrists than look BEYOND the piano repertoire        

It seems so, sadly. Not the way to become a good musician... For
an optimal understanding of Bach nothing beats taking up organ playing and digging into the large chorales. They are simply out of this world, more so than anything he wrote for harpsichord.

Just for the record.... when I was young(er), I too was obsessed with Chopin and Liszt!
Becoming obsessed with Bach simply deepened my love, respect, and admiration for Franz and Frederick!

Same here, although I've dropped great chunks of Liszt since then. The typical romantic virtuoso stuff doesn't interest me as much anymore now (admittedly Liszt is more than that). Embracing Bach has definitely opened my mind for Beethoven, Scarlatti, Mozart, and eventually Haydn.

[awesom_o]

The typical romantic virtuoso stuff doesn't interest me as much anymore now (admittedly Liszt is more than that).

Well said! I couldn't agree more!

[pianoman8]

I'm starting to think many pianists would rather slit their own wrists than look BEYOND the piano repertoire         
 

...do piano concertos count?

[j_menz]

...do piano concertos count?

As baby steps.

[cbreemer]

...do piano concertos count?

Not unless you also listen to symphonies and violin concerti ;-)

[superstition2]

There are MANY different levels of emotion in music. "My Heart Will Go On" is an EXTREMELY emotional song....especially the first time you hear it! However, chances are very high that, the more deeply you study it, the more frequently you play it, and the more often you sing it, the LESS emotional depth depth it contains! It will always be emotional, but you will find it emotionally shallow, emotionally cheap.

Actually, what you're talking about is the fact that accessibility can be a long-term liability.

That doesn't make it inferior. It just means that something that is highly accessible serves its fruit sooner.

However, when something passes from simply being accessible to being maudlin or cloying, that can be a different matter. Wannabe by the Spice Girls has a strong impact, but it's not one I would call pleasant.

[awesom_o]

That doesn't make it inferior. It just means that something that is highly accessible serves its fruit sooner.

I didn't say it was inferior. More accessible generally means more affordable. More affordable usually means cheaper. Cheaper often means inferior. Not always, but often. 

[superstition2]

I didn't say it was inferior.

I see. This was complimentary:

you will find it emotionally shallow, emotionally cheap.

[j_menz]

This was complimentary:

Given it referred to "My Heart Will Go On",  it strikes me as unduly complimentary.

I'd detail my own view of the song, but I don't use that kind of language.

[superstition2]

Given it referred to "My Heart Will Go On",  it strikes me as unduly complimentary.

I'd detail my own view of the song, but I don't use that kind of language.

That's not exactly to the point.