When will digital pianos be used in the recordingindustry?

[forte88]

Are the best digital pianos today really so inferior to accoustic pianos that say a Kissin or Perahia won't do a recording on one? Midi has been around for a long time and people could learn a lot from the information contained in it. One could see exactly how the greats get the sound they do, how they use their peddles, dynamics etc. The recording industry could even develop games to exactly match different passages, that you're told what's missing in your playing to get the sound they've got.
And even IF the best digital pianos are inferior to accoustic, I personally think these musical superstars can teach a new generation their craft so they start with excellence and take it a step further again.
We don't keep inventing the wheel, we pass on information, that's why technology develops exponentially, coz the information is passed on.
The recordingindustry and especially classical music has to adapt to the 21st century if it's ever going to start producing something new again

[perfect_pitch]

No... Keyboard still are that inferior to pianos and never ever will come close. Why play on a cheap substitute when you can have the real thing???

[forte88]

No... Keyboard still are that inferior to pianos and never ever will come close. Why play on a cheap substitute when you can have the real thing???

I don't know if it was just marketing talk but I've seen pros play on $12000 digital pianos and say it felt and sounded like a real grand, and if that's what you get for $12000 what could digitals costing a few 100000 do?
And as I explained it's also the teaching potential midi has, perhaps they could use accoustic and get the same midi information thru sensors so even if the digital piano doesn't sound as good playing it the same way the amateurs at home get taught how the greats play instead of by a mediocre teacher. A kind of guitar hero game, but instead of a toy guitar, using the midi already in the digital piano  so the game would get feedback and would tell you what has to be played louder/softer, pedal etc and in the process you'd be learning the technique required to play it in such a manner

[Bob]

Maybe someday.  Once the "resolution" of the touch and the sound get on par and then above acoustic pianos.  There's got to be some point where a digital is as precise (and as good) as an acoustic.  Until then though, the touch feels a little ok somehow and the sound is either something still sounding a bit artificial or a recording of someone else playing that key.... which is still good for a lot of things right now -- like commercial background music.

Sound being speakers too.  The key touch will have to be right for the pianist.  The sound sample or creation would have to be right.  And then the output sound would have to match an acoustic. Once they get that though... That would be really weird being able to play a "piano" that doesn't take up the same space as a giant acoustic grand piano. 

[timothy42b]

Most of the piano sound you hear is already digital.

(CD)

[thalbergmad]

Good point old chap

[ahinton]

peddles

One way to sell a piano, one supposes...

Best,

Alistair

[mjames]

Don't they already do? Ive seen plenty digital pianos being used in rock pop etc. it's only uncommon in classical music

Even jazz musicians use digital pianos frequently. The moment we start using them is the moment we stop being snobs.

Most of the piano sound you hear is already digital.

(CD)

Oh and, this too.

[Bob]

I thought they were talking about classical.

The stuff in commercial is probably some guy with his MacBook selling his music for ads.

[thalbergmad]

Whilst historically it is a futile pastime to put limits on technology, I think it would at present be safe to say that a good acoustic still sounds preferable to a good digital. The same is true in the organ world, albeit more and more churches are going down the digital route for cost reasons.

I don't think anyone has ever made a digital banjo.

Thal

[Bob]

Think again...

https://www.tommymarkham.com/Music/BanjoMidiMusic.htm

Sounds like 16-bit video game music.

1980's tech.  1990's webpage.  


If that's out there, they say you can take any topic and search for it with...
Which leads to another strange moment, searching the internet, listening to crappy buy happy MIDI banjo music....  I wish I wasn't eating right now too.

Hm... Markham... That's pretty close to Marik.  You don't suppose that's Marik's site, do you? 

[iansinclair]

Three aspects of this occur to me.

The first has to do with MIDI and live performance.  The former isn't, the latter is -- live.  While it is very nice to have superb recordings, in my humble (yeah, right) there is no substitute for live performance.  Now in some live music the absolute quality of the instrument is not that important, particularly if it is heavily amplified (think rock group).  In much live music, however, the quality of the instrument is important -- this goes as much for jazz as it does for classical.

Which brings me neatly to the second point, which I approach more from the standpoint of an organist -- which I was for many years -- that a pianist, although the point is valid.  I have been acquainted with and had the privilege to play a number of really good digital organs, as well as a number of very good digital pianos.  There is a problem common to both: reproduction of the sound.  It doesn't matter one bit how good the digital file for the selected note (or notes or stops) is if the sound reproduction equipment isn't adequate.  Now some of the instruments which I have played have truly astounding amplifier and speaker systems associated with them, costing many tens of thousands of dollars and taking a good deal of space (a lot bigger than a concert grand) and they still did not capture the sound of the real thing.  Very good, surely.  Real?  No, sorry.  There are good reasons to pick a digital organ, of which the best is space (organs do take a lot of space) but price isn't one of them, because of the sound system.  Sound reproduction for a piano is very nearly as demanding as that for an organ, except for the extreme bass (below 16 hertz).

The third is actually a rather minor problem, and the best of today's digital pianos have almost overcome it.  That is the feel and responsiveness of the action.  But... those digital pianos which have that good an action are not cheap.  Not as expensive as a top end grand, no.  But certainly not cheap!

[bluesnbob]

I believe they already are to some degree, at least in the studio. Brian Culbertson, a Jazz and Pop Pianist world renown, uses a Roland V-Piano Grand which is amazing! I am the proud owner of a Roland HP-507 and it is one of their best upright/console pianos they make. I use many different piano software from the 1700's to modern Steinways and it is so much fun. I play through a Focusrite Saffire 6 USB External sound card with 4 KRK studio monitors. I like the Rolands built in sound through headphones more than just having the sound coming out of it's own 6 speakers, hence, all the software.

[flashyfingers]

I recently had the pleasure to play on the Yamaha c7/II disklavier. It had a HUGE sound (playing it as a piano, not a midi controller), especially given a small room in the middle of a giant house. (Weird, I know...)

I thought we were going to record midi AND audio, but the engineer recorded MIDI. Needless to say, I discarded that whole afternoon's work, after listening to the MIDI.

I do not see how it could be the resemblance of a performance. Sure, MIDI could be used to save time when aiming for accuracy. Ultimately, we would need to become more accustomed to recreating the actual performance and not simply cheating ourselves, like purposely speeding up a recording and quantizing all of everything, adding notes you missed, etc.

The touch (real time to digital)...is miraculous. I was very VERY impressed with how LIVE that aspect of midi recording on an actual concert grand was. But the response seemed to lack SO MUCH.

You can have MIDI installed on any piano these days. Even janky ones.

[stevensk]

 "When will digital pianos be used in the recordingindustry?"



1) For pop music, NOW, but its declining in favour of software plugins

2) For classical music NEVER (I think and hope)

[forte88]

I see the point of the possible cheating aspect to recording and midi, but for me it's more about capturing the pianists sound in midi, so amateurs can learn from it, and not just amateurs.
Yes I can see how practising countless hours to perform a piece of music someone wrote centuries ago to perfection and creating a distinct sound is what it's about for the performer.
But just like a Mozart learnt from the technicalities of the Mannheim sound and their thoroughly disciplined approach to dynamics and incorporated it in his compositions, the same could be learnt from the technicalities of a performer from the midi information provided. Perhaps you'll have templates. Like for example I love what Perahia does with Schubert, his style of playing and how he makes Schubert sound is almost magical. The midi information about touch, velocity, dynamics etc could capture this so a composer could add it to a composition. And it obviously wouldn't have to be a direct copy, more a type of influence.
A bit like sheetmusic and how the information contained in it is more at least in my case than from my direct auditory experience. Similarly one could learn a lot from those guys whove spent years perfecting their technique.

It's a bit like cutting out the middle man. Coz although I like playing, I don't really care about cheating to get the best sound .

But I guess I've answered my own question, it's a selfish reason, eventhough it might bring classical music back to life again.

[flashyfingers]

I see the point of the possible cheating aspect to recording and midi, but for me it's more about capturing the pianists sound in midi, so amateurs can learn from it, and not just amateurs.
Yes I can see how practising countless hours to perform a piece of music someone wrote centuries ago to perfection and creating a distinct sound is what it's about for the performer.
But just like a Mozart learnt from the technicalities of the Mannheim sound and their thoroughly disciplined approach to dynamics and incorporated it in his compositions, the same could be learnt from the technicalities of a performer from the midi information provided. Perhaps you'll have templates. Like for example I love what Perahia does with Schubert, his style of playing and how he makes Schubert sound is almost magical. The midi information about touch, velocity, dynamics etc could capture this so a composer could add it to a composition. And it obviously wouldn't have to be a direct copy, more a type of influence.
A bit like sheetmusic and how the information contained in it is more at least in my case than from my direct auditory experience. Similarly one could learn a lot from those guys whove spent years perfecting their technique.

It's a bit like cutting out the middle man. Coz although I like playing, I don't really care about cheating to get the best sound .

But I guess I've answered my own question, it's a selfish reason, eventhough it might bring classical music back to life again.

I like and agree, with all the ideas here!

There is definitely a lot to learn from MIDI, true. The piece I was recording was a Liszt piece and the reason I never EVER post in the audition room is because I can't stand missing certain details and showing lacking technique (even if it's brief), etc. BUT, the MIDI file allowed me to slow down the tempo and play each note with a mouse, and see EXACTLY what I was to work out to improve my next recording, and I even deleted the pedaling so I would hear just the keywork on it's own.

Also, all the algorithms that are used to give us a responsive MIDI, I am sure there is an analogy that could be based off of MIDI. Afterall, music has a lot in common with math, and math helps us make rational decisions. Math helps us calculate pace in music, math can teach us feeling in music, too...

 

[forte88]

It's all about information, the democratisation of it. And really it should be an honor for any pianist to have their style copied as an example of execellence. But unlike most fields and especially in science, there's no info as to how they did it. So if classical music and especially the performers want to 'stand on the shoulders of giants' we have to think of information and do away with $

And yes how we react to sound I'm sure is like any natural phenomena mathematics can explain, understand and thus manipulate.
On a side note I think the best souding porn comes from Germany, or at least germanic languages. Italian or French is too staccato, German smooth and slutty and I've noticed that I react much better to certain types of moans than others and my guess is there's like a philospher's stone a certain pitch and way of moaning that can make you shoot your load just by hearing it, that would work equally well for hetero, homo and pedosexuals coz it goes right back to erotic archetypes, already programmed in before the latter programming has formed the 'preference'.
For me the importance of moaning is on about the same relevance of importance as music itself and with that I mean the whole spectrum. Yes it's frowned upon, coz what are you gonna day if your daughter starts moaning in a slutty manner coz she's heard the latest 'pedopornsupahstar?', a voice that any young girl wants to master, computers can calculate what she has to do to 'hit the sweet spot', and once it can define the process it can be improved.But you're probably right 'your daughter wouldn't want to arouse men;)'
That's what we need I mean if porn obviously educates people, prompts people to try anal or start to shave then why not teach?, the reward of a whole world of slutty voices should be enough reason to take this seriously. We need rolemodels, not like the 'material girl'Madonna but a girl with a voice that can drive a man crazy with lust.

[awesom_o]

       

The 'shocked' emoticon is insufficiently shocked-looking to express the magnitude of my shock!

[iancollett6]

It's all about information, the democratisation of it. And really it should be an honor for any pianist to have their style copied as an example of execellence. But unlike most fields and especially in science, there's no info as to how they did it. So if classical music and especially the performers want to 'stand on the shoulders of giants' we have to think of information and do away with $

And yes how we react to sound I'm sure is like any natural phenomena mathematics can explain, understand and thus manipulate.
On a side note I think the best souding porn comes from Germany, or at least germanic languages. Italian or French is too staccato, German smooth and slutty and I've noticed that I react much better to certain types of moans than others and my guess is there's like a philospher's stone a certain pitch and way of moaning that can make you shoot your load just by hearing it, that would work equally well for hetero, homo and pedosexuals coz it goes right back to erotic archetypes, already programmed in before the latter programming has formed the 'preference'.
For me the importance of moaning is on about the same relevance of importance as music itself and with that I mean the whole spectrum. Yes it's frowned upon, coz what are you gonna day if your daughter starts moaning in a slutty manner coz she's heard the latest 'pedopornsupahstar?', a voice that any young girl wants to master, computers can calculate what she has to do to 'hit the sweet spot', and once it can define the process it can be improved.But you're probably right 'your daughter wouldn't want to arouse men;)'
That's what we need I mean if porn obviously educates people, prompts people to try anal or start to shave then why not teach?, the reward of a whole world of slutty voices should be enough reason to take this seriously. We need rolemodels, not like the 'material girl'Madonna but a girl with a voice that can drive a man crazy with lust.

.......well.,I just dont know what to say to that?

[Bob]

I think the thread is back in the this direction.


Follow me!  I know the way... 

[lostinidlewonder]

A digital will never replicate the infinite touches you can create when felt hammers strike metal strings causing the wooden sound boards to vibrate. The artificial sustaining of notes when using the pedal with digitals always have left me disappointed.

[flashyfingers]

It's all about information, the democratisation of it. And really it should be an honor for any pianist to have their style copied as an example of execellence. But unlike most fields and especially in science, there's no info as to how they did it. So if classical music and especially the performers want to 'stand on the shoulders of giants' we have to think of information and do away with $

And yes how we react to sound I'm sure is like any natural phenomena mathematics can explain, understand and thus manipulate.
On a side note I think the best souding porn comes from Germany, or at least germanic languages. Italian or French is too staccato, German smooth and slutty and I've noticed that I react much better to certain types of moans than others and my guess is there's like a philospher's stone a certain pitch and way of moaning that can make you shoot your load just by hearing it, that would work equally well for hetero, homo and pedosexuals coz it goes right back to erotic archetypes, already programmed in before the latter programming has formed the 'preference'.
For me the importance of moaning is on about the same relevance of importance as music itself and with that I mean the whole spectrum. Yes it's frowned upon, coz what are you gonna day if your daughter starts moaning in a slutty manner coz she's heard the latest 'pedopornsupahstar?', a voice that any young girl wants to master, computers can calculate what she has to do to 'hit the sweet spot', and once it can define the process it can be improved.But you're probably right 'your daughter wouldn't want to arouse men;)'
That's what we need I mean if porn obviously educates people, prompts people to try anal or start to shave then why not teach?, the reward of a whole world of slutty voices should be enough reason to take this seriously. We need rolemodels, not like the 'material girl'Madonna but a girl with a voice that can drive a man crazy with lust.

Excuse me? WHAT, JUST WHAT....lol

[iancollett6]

Excuse me? WHAT, JUST WHAT....lol

 Hey FlashFingers!....Dont go back there!...Bob has already steered this thread back onto direction once before...For the sake of humanity,just dont go BACK THERE!

[flashyfingers]

 Hey FlashFingers!....Dont go back there!...Bob has already steered this thread back onto direction once before...For the sake of humanity,just dont go BACK THERE!

OH!! (That was not my moaning voice.) LOOOOOL

Anyways. What I meant to say earlier about the response of the concert grand with the MIDI, was more about response of the software. Digital simply cannot be the real thing. Like a transformer that corrodes over time, and is also noisy when operating (here we go?), energy must be lost in the transformation of sound and acoustics to digital data. Digital has no risk. There simply are never enough bits and zero's and ones for that.

If you want to play it safe, digital is fine...

[forte88]

I agree that accoustic will probably always sound better, but that's beside the point, IMO with the technology we have today they could record a lot more than just the sound. And like with sheetmusic (at least in my case), I learn a lot more from seeing the notes than I would just listening to the music.
What makes a good performer?
It's like with Mozart's music he just wrote down the bare structure and would embellish and improvise and think up cadenzas on the spot performing while later on they'd (Chopin e.g.)write it all out.
In a way sheetmusic is antiquated, so perhaps midi will allow composers of the future to indicate even more precisely how they want something to sound than just adding hairpins and crescendo markings but thru midi information can capture a style of playing or even improve on it

[Bob]

[flashyfingers]

I agree that accoustic will probably always sound better, but that's beside the point, IMO with the technology we have today they could record a lot more than just the sound. And like with sheetmusic (at least in my case), I learn a lot more from seeing the notes than I would just listening to the music.
What makes a good performer?
It's like with Mozart's music he just wrote down the bare structure and would embellish and improvise and think up cadenzas on the spot performing while later on they'd (Chopin e.g.)write it all out.
In a way sheetmusic is antiquated, so perhaps midi will allow composers of the future to indicate even more precisely how they want something to sound than just adding hairpins and crescendo markings but thru midi information can capture a style of playing or even improve on it

Awesome!!! Yes, MIDI is, in some ways, a collection of symbols and styles in music notation, collected over centuries of music composition in written form, and transcriptions...
This, at the least, can help put the two together-what music looks like and what it sounds like. Essentially, if you have a good ear, you don't need a teacher.