Polonaise Fantasie Prep

[alistaircrane4]

Ive set my sights on the Polonaise Fantasie op 61 and as such I have prepared a list of pieces that will help to get to the level of this piece and they are as follows.

Chopin Op 34 no.1
Chopin Op 27 no.1
Liszt Op 1 no.9
Chopin Op 40 no.1
Chopin Op 10 no.3
Chopin Op 25 no.1
Chopin Op 42 no.1
Chopin Op 44 or Op 26 no.1
Chopin Op 47
Chopin Op 49
Chopin Op 53 or Op 22
POLONAISE FANTASIE

In your opinions does this list provide adequate prep for this piece? And also what pieces should I do for the OR parts such as op 44 or op26 no1 and op 53 or op 22?
and finally if there are things i should take out as they are not important and i can do without them just let me know

[j_menz]

Haven't you already done Op 53? (and a couple of others)?

Have you tried reading through Op 61 and determining what areas are outside your current skillset? Without knowing that, ie, where you are, it's rather difficult to give directions to where you want to go. You do rather seem to have a liking for the scenic route, though.

[alistaircrane4]

Haven't you already done Op 53? (and a couple of others)?

Have you tried reading through Op 61 and determining what areas are outside your current skillset? Without knowing that, ie, where you are, it's rather difficult to give directions to where you want to go. You do rather seem to have a liking for the scenic route, though.

I havent done op 53 yet only both c sharp nocturnes,f minor nocturne,military polonaise,and op 10 no 3. I started the op 34 yesterday. Im choosing this path to gain more rep for a big competition and also to familiarize my self with different stylings and to get adept at polonaises. Do you think its too much just to get to one piece?

[j_menz]

I havent done op 53 yet only both c sharp nocturnes,f minor nocturne,military polonaise,and op 10 no 3. I started the op 34 yesterday. Im choosing this path to gain more rep for a big competition and also to familiarize my self with different stylings and to get adept at polonaises. Do you think its too much just to get to one piece?

I'd never discourage anyone from broadening their repertoire (if only works by Chopin can be said to do that), so not against the idea of doing all these pieces. It's just that if your aim is Op 61, then your approach seems a little untargeted.

Have you looked through Op 61? If so, what are the bits you see as the most challenging?  Are there any bits you really don't even know where to begin with?

[alistaircrane4]

I'd never discourage anyone from broadening their repertoire (if only works by Chopin can be said to do that), so not against the idea of doing all these pieces. It's just that if your aim is Op 61, then your approach seems a little untargeted.

Have you looked through Op 61? If so, what are the bits you see as the most challenging?  Are there any bits you really don't even know where to begin with?

i see the middle section and the ending of the op 61 an issue mostly due to the fast chords and rhythm so ive made that list of pieces to help me get used to these issues. What pieces do you think are not vital and which do you think will help

[j_menz]

i see the middle section and the ending of the op 61 an issue mostly due to the fast chords and rhythm so ive made that list of pieces to help me get used to these issues. What pieces do you think are not vital and which do you think will help

You can probably skip the Waltzes, cut down on the Polonaises, not do the Ballade, Fantasie or Andante Spinnything (at least in prep - all good for repertoire).

Up the etudes. 25/1 is probably not the best etude for your purpose (10/3 is good). Try the octaves, thirds and 10/7. 10/9 is good too. Even if you only get them up to barely tolerable, the lessons there will serve you better (you can of course polish them up over the next however long).

Oh, and do as many Bach inventions as you can. You need to think polyphonically for the Polonaise Fantasie, and Bach will help there.

[alistaircrane4]

You can probably skip the Waltzes, cut down on the Polonaises, not do the Ballade, Fantasie or Andante Spinnything (at least in prep - all good for repertoire).

Up the etudes. 25/1 is probably not the best etude for your purpose (10/3 is good). Try the octaves, thirds and 10/7. 10/9 is good too. Even if you only get them up to barely tolerable, the lessons there will serve you better (you can of course polish them up over the next however long).

Oh, and do as many Bach inventions as you can. You need to think polyphonically for the Polonaise Fantasie, and Bach will help there.

which polonaises to do and to not do? and are there any others pieces youd recommend me do just for good measure

[j_menz]

which polonaises to do and to not do? and are there any others pieces youd recommend me do just for good measure

I don't really know my way round the polonaises very well - they tend to annoy me, but any two should be fine for your purposes.

What I've suggested should give you the skill set to tackle this one in a reasonably efficient manner - you'll still have a little work to do, but you can do that in the piece itself.  Of course, the broader your exposure to Chopin's other works, and those of Bach and Mozart in particular, the better off you'll be, but none come to mind as having a direct payoff.

[pianoman1349]

Up the etudes. 25/1 is probably not the best etude for your purpose (10/3 is good). Try the octaves, thirds and 10/7. 10/9 is good too. Even if you only get them up to barely tolerable, the lessons there will serve you better (you can of course polish them up over the next however long).

Oh, and do as many Bach inventions as you can. You need to think polyphonically for the Polonaise Fantasie, and Bach will help there.

I completely agree with this suggestion.  I think you may also want to explore more of the fugues, as well, as the thicker counterpoint is much similar to what you will find in the Polonaise Fantasie

While the study of all of the etudes and additional works are great, what is your ultimate goal?  If your ultimate goal is to play this work well, why don't you just start working on it as any other work, and let any technical problems/challenges you encounter in the work serve as their own exercises to build your technique.  I think once you start playing this polonaise and start thinking about how you want to musically deal with the material, a lot of your technical worries will subside dramatically.  This is because the body will physically adjust almost automatically to create the sound you hear in your ear.  I think this approach may be more helpful, especially in mature works such as this one, as the performer is listening more carefully right from the get-go.

Any passages that you can't achieve your desired effect will be the the areas where you need to re-enforce  technically.

In terms of polanaies to do, I think the Op. 26 no 1 would be a good choice, as it is more dramatic and lyrical than some of the other polonaises you are considering or have learned (Op 53).  I find late chopin benefits a lot from prior study of works emphasizing tonal refinement and lyricism, so some more nocturnes may be helpful.  While the ballade and fantasie may not be great prep works (actually terrible prep works, as they require as much work to learn and master as the polonaise-fantasie to significantly benefit from) , they will add to your insight and technical competence in the polonaise.  YOu may want to consider learning one of those works in conjunction with the polonaise-fantaisie, or right before.

Best of luck

[alistaircrane4]

I completely agree with this suggestion.  I think you may also want to explore more of the fugues, as well, as the thicker counterpoint is much similar to what you will find in the Polonaise Fantasie

While the study of all of the etudes and additional works are great, what is your ultimate goal?  If your ultimate goal is to play this work well, why don't you just start working on it as any other work, and let any technical problems/challenges you encounter in the work serve as their own exercises to build your technique.  I think once you start playing this polonaise and start thinking about how you want to musically deal with the material, a lot of your technical worries will subside dramatically.  This is because the body will physically adjust almost automatically to create the sound you hear in your ear.  I think this approach may be more helpful, especially in mature works such as this one, as the performer is listening more carefully right from the get-go.

Any passages that you can't achieve your desired effect will be the the areas where you need to re-enforce  technically.

In terms of polanaies to do, I think the Op. 26 no 1 would be a good choice, as it is more dramatic and lyrical than some of the other polonaises you are considering or have learned (Op 53).  I find late chopin benefits a lot from prior study of works emphasizing tonal refinement and lyricism, so some more nocturnes may be helpful.  While the ballade and fantasie may not be great prep works (actually terrible prep works, as they require as much work to learn and master as the polonaise-fantasie to significantly benefit from) , they will add to your insight and technical competence in the polonaise.  YOu may want to consider learning one of those works in conjunction with the polonaise-fantaisie, or right before.

Best of luck

My goal is to be ready for this piece as it is truly a masterpiece and a difficult work. Im always told you have to learn pieces before you can play other so my current rep which is both c sharp nocturnes,the a major polonaise,f minor nocturne, and op 10 no3, im also currently working op 34 no1. i dont think that those pieces put me at a competent level. Would i really be able to just jump into the polonaise fantasie after I finish the waltz if i wanted to?

[pianoman1349]

It really depends on what other repertoire you have played (outside of Chopin).  If you had the time, I would learn at least one other major chopin work before the polonaise, possibly a scherzo (no. 3) or shorter ballade (No. 2) which would better prepare you for the polonaise.

The Op. 34 waltz is a great piece.  However, it won't really offer that much preparation for the polonaise.  The Polonaise fantaisie requires a lot of maturity and insight that can't be explored in the waltzes.  From a technical standpoint, the biggest challenge, which is true for most of the late chopin works, is the control of the different layers of sound and tone colour and maintenance of a long melodic and harmonic line.  As it has been mentioned before, Bach is great for this kind of stuff.  Actually, Bach is good for a lot of technical challenges that would be encountered throughout the 19th century repertoire, as most of the major composers studied and championed the works of J. S. Bach.  The G-sharp minor and f-sharp minor prelude and fugues from WTC book 2 would be good.

In terms of the chordal and rhythm challenges you mentioned, that would be best tackled by working through the issues as they come up in the work, and making exercises based on the material found in the polonaise.  That way, issues are dealt with in a very direct and specific manner.