A few curious questions

[cuberdrift]

Hello there. There are just these times when I think out of the box and just ask myself certain things about music. I've recently opened myself to thinking about compositional ideas and the ideas which surround music in general.

I'm wondering if...

- There was usage of the pentatonic scale before Beethoven (I seldom hear it being featured before the Romantics)??
- There ARE, or WERE, classical composers who composed 'erotic music', or music meant to stimulate sexual pleasure ('porn music'?) Considering the conservative nature of European art music it's possible these never existed.
- Which composers made a lot of works depicting the devil himself? What are these pieces called? Could they be considered precursors to what people today call "Black Metal"?
- What were some really early usages of the Blues scale, either intentionally or accidentally? Which pieces are these found in?
- Is it true that Bach could improvise in six voices before King Frederick, or did he have to write it down?
- If Beethoven lived today, do you think he would he utilize electronic instruments? How would he react to the popular music of today? Would he embrace it, fight it, ignore it, or steal ideas from it?

Thank you. Good day. 

[j_menz]

I'm wondering if...

- There was usage of the pentatonic scale before Beethoven (I seldom hear it being featured before the Romantics)??

The ancient greeks, and a whole lot of European and other folk traditions.

- There ARE, or WERE, classical composers who composed 'erotic music', or music meant to stimulate sexual pleasure ('porn music'?) Considering the conservative nature of European art music it's possible these never existed.

Conservative nature? 

Oh, and exempla prima:

- Which composers made a lot of works depicting the devil himself? What are these pieces called? Could they be considered precursors to what people today call "Black Metal"?

Gounod, Liszt? Not very metalish though.

- Is it true that Bach could improvise in six voices before King Frederick, or did he have to write it down?

No, or it's not least not the case that he did.

- If Beethoven lived today, do you think he would he utilize electronic instruments? How would he react to the popular music of today? Would he embrace it, fight it, ignore it, or steal ideas from it?

Beethoven took to every gadget he could find in his own time, it's difficult to believe he wouldn't now were he alive.

[iansinclair]

Pentatonic scales (there are several)?  Surely.  As j_menz says -- a lot of European folk music is in one or another of them, and the ancient Greeks, and any of a number of Eastern civilizations, and a lot of near eastern/middle eastern music.  We aren't as aware of them as we should be, at least partly because our 'classical' music tradition is really rather narrow, and based ultimately on the Gregorian modes.

Erotic music?  Good Lord yes.  Lots of it.  The only major difference between then and now is that then the eroticism was more implied, whereas now we tend to be (objectionably, in my view) far more explicit.  Any one of the Renaissance composers you would care to name, for examples.  I wouldn't say that all the Renaissance madrigals are erotic, for example -- but an awful lot of them are!  Never mind folk drinking songs and the like.  And certainly never mind Morris dancing!

Actual depictions of the Devil?  Well, the examples from j_menz, obviously.  I'm not so sure about earlier music; I can't, just at the moment, think of examples from the Renaissance and earlier.  This may be, in part, that folks in those days had a far healthier and realistic respect for Old Nick than moderns seem to, and were rather hesitant to risk calling him up.  (One might observe that actual depictions of God are rather thin on the ground, too -- worship, yes.  Depictions, no)  Are you familiar, by the way, with the absolutely fabulous fiddle tune 'The Devil went down to Georgia'?  If not, you should look it up -- try YouTube.  It is old in origin -- 18th century -- although the versions you will hear are modern.

Bach's improvisation?  I can't find a real reference to six parts.  Three and four, yes.

And as j_menz says, I would imagine that Beethoven -- or any of the more major composers -- would have used whatever they could get their hands on.  One must remember that part of what made these people great was their inventiveness.

[j_menz]

Bach's improvisation?  I can't find a real reference to six parts.  Three and four, yes.

The Musical Offering is the six parter in question.

Freddy gave Bach a theme and asked him to improvise a six part fugue on it. Bach tactfully said that the theme was too great for a mere improvisation, and did a little three part fugue on it to demonstrate. He went away and used the theme for the Musical Offering, giving it a full treatment and six parts.

[quantum]

- There was usage of the pentatonic scale before Beethoven (I seldom hear it being featured before the Romantics)??

One example is in Chinese music, which makes a lot of use of pentatonic modalities.  The Chinese developed forms of opera centuries prior to Western music.

- There ARE, or WERE, classical composers who composed 'erotic music', or music meant to stimulate sexual pleasure ('porn music'?) Considering the conservative nature of European art music it's possible these never existed.

Where to start  


Listen to the text, pay attention to the melodic contour, use your imagination  

Sometimes the music was more to the point:

- If Beethoven lived today, do you think he would he utilize electronic instruments? How would he react to the popular music of today? Would he embrace it, fight it, ignore it, or steal ideas from it?

The early development of the piano owes much to the music Beethoven was writing.  He was continually pushing the capabilities of instruments.  I would imagine synthesizer sonatas, and quartets for Theremin would be in order.  How about a concerto for Ondes Martenot and Ableton Live orchestra.

[j_menz]

quartets for Theremin would be in order.  

Interesting sound:

How about a concerto for Ondes Martenot and Ableton Live orchestra.

A real orchestra (predates the Ableton Live one), but again, fascinating:

And why not Ondes Martenot and Theramin:

[cuberdrift]

Thank you for your time. 

About the pentatonic thing, I was wondering if it was in use by the composers "we know" - you know, the household-name-classical guys. For instance, I rarely hear Bach feature, or even imply it. Neither do Mozart, Clementi, Scarlatti, Haydn, et al. Did any of these composers decidedly NOT use it, or did they not know of its existence at all?

I am well aware of its usage in ancient, and non-European music. I've read before that it is perhaps the most universally-used scale. However, it bugs me a bit as to why pre-Romantic European classical music composers did not utilize it.

The erotic thing interests me a lot though. Sexual language seems to have evolved a lot over time. Are you sure it wasn't taboo back then? My reasons for the "conservativism" of classical music stems from my general knowledge about Western art music in that it was a product of wealthy, refined noblemen from Europe supporting talented musicians. I don't often imagine aristocrats in well-dressed garments subscribing to composers who utilized the carnal forces of nature  .

And I haven't even touched on the hold of the Church over Europe back then. Surely the papacy would have been outraged at such sexual immorality? Weren't they highly influential in classical music?

And iansclair, who is "Old Nick"? About the metal thing, of course metal is a new genre, but I'm mainly talking about music that touched a lot on the devil. I know of "Suggestion Diabolique" for example...what else is there? Is there a "musical Hieronymous Bosch"? I got myself interested about this because most of the music we hear are mainly for God, or for something "beautiful"...not something abhorrent, or devilish, or terrifying. Sorry for generalizing, I do not claim to be well-versed with music literature.

And as to the Beethoven thing, yes, I think he would, and others would, too. But let's be more specific - how would he, or they, react to today's popular music scheme? Isn't popular music a "20th century" concept - what with the advent of recording technology, and more recently, the Internet? The rift between what is often classified as "Art music" and "Popular music" is something that tirelessly bombards my curiosity.

Back then, was every German, Austrian, or Italian familiar with Mozart's music? I do not think so. As far as I know, he mingled with high society. Today, practically everyone has access to almost all music - hence the birth of "Popular Music"...correct me if I'm wrong. Therefore, today's famous songwriters and composers seem to be concerned with simpler, catchy melodies than the unconventionality and complexity from men like Beethoven.

On a side note, I remember a Youtube video featuring Leonard Bernstein explaining this "new music" - from the point of view of a semiclassical/classically oriented musician. "Pop music" seems to be a new thing. What would the greats have done if they were placed in today's context?

And lastly, if they were to utilize today's devices, WHY ARE WE STILL PLAYING 200 YEAR OLD INSTRUMENTS?! This seems weird to me now! We are, in effect, not really following the footsteps of the masters - we are simply echoing what they already did!!! Did Bach play Medieval music? Did Liszt do nothing but re-perform Beethoven's works? Have we failed to progress? Correct me if I'm wrong - I don't know much about modern piano composers. Why have we stopped evolving? Or is the new "Classical music" DJ sh*t? 

Again, thank you for your time. 

[cuberdrift]

And sorry for the double post...but do you know any pre-ragtime piano pieces that are African-influenced? Who are some composers with African ethnicity apart from the "Joplin" genre? I read before about a certain "Black Mahler". Strange that, while more prolific than Mr. Joplin, he is hardly heard of.

[visitor]

...-influenced? Who are some composers with African ethnicity apart from the "Joplin" genre?....

by far my favorite African American composer. damn fine piano composer. I have this score. the work is legit.

excerpt from the larger whole

some variety

[cliffy]

I don't know how much I can help, but I'll try.


- There was usage of the pentatonic scale before Beethoven (I seldom hear it being featured before the Romantics)??

If there is anything new under the sun, it's certainly not the pentatonic scale. If you're interested, you could check your local library for a copy of the out-of-print tome "Pentatonicism from the Eighteenth Century to Debussy" by Jeremy Day-O"Connell. Perhaps the Classicists used it sparingly because it didn't fit into the sound world they wanted to create.

- There ARE, or WERE, classical composers who composed 'erotic music', or music meant to stimulate sexual pleasure ('porn music'?) Considering the conservative nature of European art music it's possible these never existed.

I didn't know that there was any pure music now which really was effective at it; perhaps I just think another way than the target audience, though. There certainly was music made to simulate composer's views of erotic feelings, such as Grieg's Lyric Piece "Erotikk" Op. 43-5. Do lyrics and percussive noises (such as moaning) count for your question? They don't for my answer, so perhaps I misunderstand you.

- Which composers made a lot of works depicting the devil himself? What are these pieces called? Could they be considered precursors to what people today call "Black Metal"?

I don't know enough about black metal as opposed to any other kind of metal to give a proper answer, maybe, but it occurs to me that any attempt to directly depict either God or Satan in musical context is fairly certain to flop. Felix Mendelssohn said that he didn't want to have lyrics put to his SWW because he had ideas in composing them which were too distinct to be expressed in language. Now with these two beings we have philosophical concepts which, were they adequately understood would be too clear to put into music. With God you'd have to create a sense of peace, but peace overflowing with a grand vitality, a perfect, unsurpassable wholeness made more striking still by surrounding disparity, the satisfaction of a ray of sunlight bursting through a cold, overcast day and the unimaginably comforting relief of midnight in a tropical desert. It would have to be not only flawless, but point out the flaws in other things in such a way that you could still appreciate their value. It would have to say everything at once yet take forever to hear.

For Old Nick, such a work would need to be above all mocking, humiliating to listen to, reminding you of all the failures you've ever had while bringing up none of the successes. It would have to be far more unfair than the actions of, say, Mr. Potter in It's a Wonderful Life, more traitorous than an unfaithful spouse in a happy marriage, more warped than the wreckage of an Atomic Warhead striking a major city and more disgusting than the worst concentration camps. You'd be physically ill from something a minute fraction of the intensity of feeling it would necessarily provoke.

I'd be apt to laugh off the stage anything someone wrote supposedly directly depicting with any accuracy either of these beings. Perhaps there weren't any such pieces in previous periods because the composers were willing to respect their human limitations and were content sticking to what they could do well.

- What were some really early usages of the Blues scale, either intentionally or accidentally? Which pieces are these found in?

That's a gigantic question, and I'm sure if you looked hard enough you could find quite a lot of use of the intervals which make up the blues scale by major composers, but like the pentatonic I wonder if their apparent inability to put them together in a scale wasn't due to it's particular sound not fitting the visions they had for their compositions.

- If Beethoven lived today, do you think he would he utilize electronic instruments? How would he react to the popular music of today? Would he embrace it, fight it, ignore it, or steal ideas from it?

If LvB were alive today, assuming that he wasn't institutionalized or put on drugs by the jealous and insignificant members of medical and psychological establishments (he was an enormously prickly character, you'll recall) he'd probably be influenced to a large degree, of course, by the trends of popular music, though just maybe he'd be the one doing the influencing. Tell me, though, what you mean by your question: do you mean Beethoven grows up in the modern world, starts from scratch, or that he's pulled, already in adulthood, from the past and plopped down in a modern recording studio? If the second, which period of his life is he taken in? I personally think that much of Beethoven's greatness is not due only to his personal genius but also being the exact right man to receive the influence and training he did. If he'd never been exposed to Haydn (his "great master", as Andras Schiff says), would he have become nearly as great, never learning the compositional techniques he was to become the grandmaster of? I wonder...

- The erotic thing interests me a lot though. Sexual language seems to have evolved a lot over time. Are you sure it wasn't taboo back then? My reasons for the "conservativism" of classical music stems from my general knowledge about Western art music in that it was a product of wealthy, refined noblemen from Europe supporting talented musicians. I don't often imagine aristocrats in well-dressed garments subscribing to composers who utilized the carnal forces of nature.

You may have a slightly sanitized view of past generations... Jus' sayan.

- And lastly, if they were to utilize today's devices, WHY ARE WE STILL PLAYING 200 YEAR OLD INSTRUMENTS?! This seems weird to me now! We are, in effect, not really following the footsteps of the masters - we are simply echoing what they already did!!! Did Bach play Medieval music? Did Liszt do nothing but re-perform Beethoven's works? Have we failed to progress? Correct me if I'm wrong - I don't know much about modern piano composers. Why have we stopped evolving? Or is the new "Classical music" DJ sh*t?  

I always wonder when people's main point is in their second post whether it was coming from the beginning or not. No matter. Is there any particular reason to abandon something because it's old? Is novelty for it's own sake something worthy of pursuing? If I happen to enjoy the music of Scarlatti or Vladigerov or Godowsky or Beethoven to an unhealthy degree (probably true), and I decide that one of their styles is the most enjoyable for me to write in, what exactly is ignoble about it? Schoenberg said there were plenty of good tunes waiting to be written in C Major, meaning that though he was an ultra-progressive musician he respected that people who are honestly drawn to the music of the past should not be harangued as long as they express it in their own way (Max Reger, who Schoenberg championed, comes to mind).

Perhaps we're using those old instruments because they produce attractive and versatile sounds. Why are we still using drums and percussion, may I ask? They're thousands of years old and they lack the ability to produce separate pitches. They can do nothing that other instruments can't do from a rhythmic standpoint, and don't contribute to the melody or harmony at all. Is it because they're innately attractive in some way?

Why should modern piano composers interest you? They're writing for a 200 year old instrument. What is modern classical music? Perhaps it's not possible for us to say what it is. Maybe it's the cream that will to the top of our era after it's away and bottled. Perhaps, as your posts seem to imply, it won't involve human performers. Is this problematic to anyone?

If I set out to compose modern classical music, what should I write? If I'm attracted, as I said, to the way other people wrote and wish to explore that idiom further still than they did, am I writing true modern classical music or derivative music? How can I tell?

- And sorry for the double post...but do you know any pre-ragtime piano pieces that are African-influenced? Who are some composers with African ethnicity apart from the "Joplin" genre? I read before about a certain "Black Mahler". Strange that, while more prolific than Mr. Joplin, he is hardly heard of.

He's not black, but a worthy composer who sort of fits your question is Mr. Louis Gottschalk, a 19th century composer-virtuoso pianist who was influenced by Creole culture, though the influence is mainly in particular, earlier pieces, such as Bamboula.

Best Regards,
CLF

[j_menz]

My reasons for the "conservativism" of classical music stems from my general knowledge about Western art music in that it was a product of wealthy, refined noblemen from Europe supporting talented musicians. I don't often imagine aristocrats in well-dressed garments subscribing to composers who utilized the carnal forces of nature  .

And I haven't even touched on the hold of the Church over Europe back then. Surely the papacy would have been outraged at such sexual immorality? Weren't they highly influential in classical music?

This was the age of the Marquis de Sade (an aristocrat) remember. Debauchery by the aristocracy was by no means unheard of.

And you may find a few biographies of composers enlightening.

And the Papacy of the time had other fish to fry, by and large.

[coda_colossale]

Pentatonic scale was, as told to me by an ethnomusicologist, invented by Chinese much before other modes or scales, by imitation, and can be seen in very very old Turkish or mongolian music.

Sonata Erotica by Schulhoff. Also Lady Macbeth by Shostakovich has a sex scene.

Diabolus in Music Also Devil's Trill Sonata, and I'm sure Liszt should have written something like that. And there is a video about Chopin's first scherzo on youtube, analyzing it's symbolism. Check that out.

No, I believe he said when he was challenged, that he should work a bit on that.