Some questions on broad concepts

[pover]

Hey guys, so now that I've finally got a teacher, I can't wait to ask her about everything I feel is wrong with my playing, or which I can improve. I've only taken 1 lesson with her and she seems to know what she's doing, and hopefully I can see progress in the near future.

I had a couple of questions about certain concepts that I wanted to ask her about, but I'm not sure if these are considered too broad or too general to offer exercises/pieces to work on them. Some of these include:

-How to play thirds and legato sixths/octaves (Mostly just double-note playing... this seems to be a big weakness for me. I need to get comfortable with those so that I can work on the musicality of the passages in things like Chopin op 27/2 instead of worrying about the technique so much)
-How to play pianissimo and fast (works sometimes, other times not so secure)
-Voicing (Inner lines, chords, bringing out tension and stuff like that)
-Phrasing (this is very important... I need help in making sure my melodies sing and you get a sense of begging and end, and not just a stream of notes, even in things like a Mozart sonata)
-How to achieve different colours, like playing with a pearly sound (which I kinda discovered from a video), and the ability to give different characters to the music, if you know what I mean.

So I was just wondering if these were considered too broad of concepts to solve through systemic work. Do you have any ideas on pieces which focus on certain aspects of those so I can suggest them to my teacher?

So far I can think of Chopin nocturnes for phrasing, Mozart sonatas and Schubert op 90/2 for evenness and bringing direction to the music (I hope I am making myself clear  ). To give you an idea of my level: I just started learning Mozart k 311, and schumann arabeske. I can play things like Chopin op 69, op 9/1,2  , Bach french suite 4 etc.

Thanks for your time, and sorry for the long post

[nyiregyhazi]

Hey guys, so now that I've finally got a teacher, I can't wait to ask her about everything I feel is wrong with my playing, or which I can improve. I've only taken 1 lesson with her and she seems to know what she's doing, and hopefully I can see progress in the near future.

I had a couple of questions about certain concepts that I wanted to ask her about, but I'm not sure if these are considered too broad or too general to offer exercises/pieces to work on them. Some of these include:

-How to play thirds and legato sixths/octaves (Mostly just double-note playing... this seems to be a big weakness for me. I need to get comfortable with those so that I can work on the musicality of the passages in things like Chopin op 27/2 instead of worrying about the technique so much)
-How to play pianissimo and fast (works sometimes, other times not so secure)
-Voicing (Inner lines, chords, bringing out tension and stuff like that)
-Phrasing (this is very important... I need help in making sure my melodies sing and you get a sense of begging and end, and not just a stream of notes, even in things like a Mozart sonata)
-How to achieve different colours, like playing with a pearly sound (which I kinda discovered from a video), and the ability to give different characters to the music, if you know what I mean.

So I was just wondering if these were considered too broad of concepts to solve through systemic work. Do you have any ideas on pieces which focus on certain aspects of those so I can suggest them to my teacher?

So far I can think of Chopin nocturnes for phrasing, Mozart sonatas and Schubert op 90/2 for evenness and bringing direction to the music (I hope I am making myself clear  ). To give you an idea of my level: I just started learning Mozart k 311, and schumann arabeske. I can play things like Chopin op 69, op 9/1,2  , Bach french suite 4 etc.

Thanks for your time, and sorry for the long post

It's all down to finger clarity and articulation. Without that, none of those things can come off. You're probably pressing with your arm and letting your fingers droop and collapse. Do rotation, a la taubman, but actually move the fingers. If you follow the nonsense they say about fingers that merely support, it doesn't work. Move slowly with an expanding finger.

[pover]

Actually I feel that it's the opposite for me; I use too much of my fingers and not little of the rest of the body. Recently I started trying to utilize my arm when I could with things like playing chords making sure that every note sounds and evenly, and it seems to have helped. It also slightly helped with playing some thirds where I would otherwise play one note a fraction of a second before the other.

I find that my problem is not using enough of my arms, since I've been self-taught for the past 3 years and I feel that I have ignored that aspect. But even with this knowledge, I don't know what to do to reliably get the results I want consistently.

[nyiregyhazi]

Actually I feel that it's the opposite for me; I use too much of my fingers and not little of the rest of the body. Recently I started trying to utilize my arm when I could with things like playing chords making sure that every note sounds and evenly, and it seems to have helped. It also slightly helped with playing some thirds where I would otherwise play one note a fraction of a second before the other.

I find that my problem is not using enough of my arms, since I've been self-taught for the past 3 years and I feel that I have ignored that aspect. But even with this knowledge, I don't know what to do to reliably get the results I want consistently.

It's almost impossible to overdo it with the fingers. The issue is whether you are clenching or pressing in your arm- which actually gives them far worse support than an arm that just floats freely from side to side. The most important issue is whether you can stand clearly and comfortably on any finger AFTER the key has been sounded, while drifting the arm faintly sideways. If you do that in a sustainable way, you can connect the arm meaningfully, to stabilise their actions. If not, you will suffer tensions that disconnect fingers from the arm.

Ultimately though, if you learn how to connect in the right way, it's finger movement that is responsible for the precise and controlled tone of great pianists. Plopping around with the arm only works if the fingers produce their own movements- or the collapsing or stiffening that will result without useful movement is extremely ineffective.

[amytsuda]

I am excited to hear you got a teacher! I think your list is a good list to discuss with your teacher.  nylregyhazi is correct about the fingers and arms. I have exactly the problem - clenching and pressing in arms and hanging onto keyboard, so it seems I am overusing fingers but actually not.

In any case, teachers need get you out of those habits through each piece, there's no magic exercise you can do to free your arms and properly use fingers while arms are floating. And to help you get out of your habits, my teachers exactly focus on things you listed. Octave in legato, pianissimo and fast with relaxed fingers, flat fingers versus pointed fingers, using the rolling movement to create phrasing, etc etc. We've been doing everything from Mozart, Bach, Chopin, Liszt to now more late contemporary.

If you got the right teacher, she'd be able to answer your questions and understand what you are asking for. Good luck, I am excited to hear how it goes.

[pover]

nyiregyhazi, the problem is that I'm not sure if I'm doing those things correctly. Today I asked my teacher to observe my playing (a Mozart sonata) and I asked her to pay attention to how I move my arms and body and to comment if she saw anything that needed fixing, but she had nothing to say. I was surprised actually, because I was sure I'd build some bad habits but then again, when I asked her to teach me Chopin Etude op 10/11 so I can make sure I'm using arm motion, she told me just practice it slowly and eventually it'll come, making no comment on arm motion whatsoever, lol.

amy: She seems great but whenever I asked her about any of the concepts she told me that I already do them. Maybe that's the case, but I wanted to be more secure with them, or more consistent and make it require less practice, but I don't know how that works. She insists that I take grade 8 exam, even though I told her it's not on my priority list. She said that I'll thank her for it 10 years down the road, even if I don't see the value of it now. I told her I'd rather work on those concepts than playing scales in 3rds or practicing diminished arpeggios, but she said this is the way to go, so IDK how much I can argue about that...

[amytsuda]

It's very difficult to see what's going on without seeing you play. Do you have a video camera on your mobile phone? Can you get a snippet of your Mozart, upload to YouTube or something, and give us a link? Maybe, you are doing everything right, maybe not. I haven't tried Chopin Etude OP 10/11, I'll check it out later when I am back to my piano, how it may or may not help the arm motion.

[nyiregyhazi]

nyiregyhazi, the problem is that I'm not sure if I'm doing those things correctly. Today I asked my teacher to observe my playing (a Mozart sonata) and I asked her to pay attention to how I move my arms and body and to comment if she saw anything that needed fixing, but she had nothing to say. I was surprised actually, because I was sure I'd build some bad habits but then again, when I asked her to teach me Chopin Etude op 10/11 so I can make sure I'm using arm motion, she told me just practice it slowly and eventually it'll come, making no comment on arm motion whatsoever, lol.

amy: She seems great but whenever I asked her about any of the concepts she told me that I already do them. Maybe that's the case, but I wanted to be more secure with them, or more consistent and make it require less practice, but I don't know how that works. She insists that I take grade 8 exam, even though I told her it's not on my priority list. She said that I'll thank her for it 10 years down the road, even if I don't see the value of it now. I told her I'd rather work on those concepts than playing scales in 3rds or practicing diminished arpeggios, but she said this is the way to go, so IDK how much I can argue about that...

I'm afraid, to put it bluntly, most teachers are pretty useless at knowing what to do about technique and what you say doesn't sound promising. I won't speculate on how much help you get with interpretation but the teacher doesn't sound remotely useful at helping you to retrain yourself in technique. Whatever isn't right, she doesn't know how to spot it.