Yefim Bronfman/Prokofiev/fff

[gvans]

I heard Bronfman play Prokofiev Sonatas 4 and 6 last night, capped with Beethoven's Archduke, with Martin Beaver and Lynn Harrell. Bronfman is a magnificent pianist, able to wrest an enormous palette of sounds from the instrument. His technique is sovereign, and his ability to play lyric passages  most evocative.

At several times during the sonatas, Mr. Bronfman, a great bear of a man, pounded the piano during fff passages with such severity members of the audience noticably jumped, myself (twenty rows back) included, our ears in pain. It sounded, and felt, as if Soviet tanks crushed us beneath their steel treads. I have no doubt this was the intended effect. These moments were often followed by sweet passages played with utmost tenderness (although the Steinway D had to be re-tuned for the Beethoven, a trio rendition that contained not a single harsh tone, yet was full of fire and verve.

Is there ever a justification to draw painful tones from the piano? Does Art require this? Or is pounding the piano, well, just pounding the piano?

[awesom_o]

I heard Bronfman play Prokofieff Sonatas 4 and 6 last night.....

Is there ever a justification to draw painful tones from the piano? Does Art require this? Or is pounding the piano, well, just pounding the piano?

Personally, I don't think art requires this. Prokofiev, on the other hand, sometimes requires this. I don't play very much Prokofiev. 

Some people see the piano as an instrument with 200 strings..... others see it as an instrument with 88 hammers!

Perhaps the the feeling of being crushed by a battle tank was the intended effect!

[j_menz]

Is there ever a justification to draw painful tones from the piano? Does Art require this? Or is pounding the piano, well, just pounding the piano?

The questions are in the wrong order. First ask "Does (this piece of) Art require this?" and then you have your answer to the remainder.

[gvans]

Personally, I don't think art requires this. Prokofiev, on the other hand, sometimes requires this. I don't play very much Prokofiev.  

Some people see the piano as an instrument with 200 strings..... others see it as an instrument with 88 hammers!

Perhaps the the feeling of being crushed by a battle tank was the intended effect!

Well said. Bronfman definitely agreed the sonatas required this (at times). Of course the tank metaphor was the intended effect. Don't get me wrong, he played the hell out of both pieces. Not a moment was boring, all was (at least on my part) fascination. Yet...trying to draw too much from the piano and creating pain in the audience has been something I have learned not to do (I'm 6' 4", 210#, a lifelong surfer, and can bang on an ax with the best of them).

No matter what the composer wants, you can only take an instrument so far before you tip-toe into da-daistic John Cage realms, the theatric land of Pete Townshend smashing guitars on stage, etc. Yefim could have spared the piano just a bit and won over a lot more of the audience. Perhaps slavish devotion to the composer's assumed wishes is what alienates so many from 20th and 21st century classical music. One can deliver a Shakespearean line many ways, just as one can play a Prokofiev sonata many ways. That is why we consider performers (pianists and actors) creative artists.

The questions are in the wrong order. First ask "Does (this piece of) Art require this?" and then you have your answer to the remainder.

Isn't it the role of the interpreter to make that decision? Every piano has a breaking point, as somebody told me years ago after I played Liszt harshly and too loud on his Steinway B. Best not to cross it, unless you have lost respect for both the instrument and the audience.

I know Stalin murdered untold millions, I know the brilliant Prokofiev was an idiot to return to Russia from the West, I know his close friend and his friend's wife were brutally murdered by the dictator. But do I need to be reminded of it in his music? Some think (and play) "yes," some, I would venture, "no."

Got to go now and play some Prokofiev.

[awesom_o]

I wouldn't pay to hear Bronfman play, personally, but that's just me!

I would probably pay you to help me learn how to get up on a surf board, however.

I'm pretty phobic of sharks, though. 

[gvans]

I wouldn't pay to hear Bronfman play, personally, but that's just me!

Hearing the Archduke with Martin Beaver (first violin from the Tokyo Quartet) and Lynn Harrell (cello) is the real reason I went, and it was worth every penny. My trio is playing Schubert Op. 99, and some musicologists think FS modeled it after Op. 97. I sightread through the 97 piano part before the performance--there are too many parallels to deny its close relationship to 99. Schubert's slow movement is more moving and beautiful than Beethoven's theme and variation slow movement (IMO), but the rest of the movements are a draw. Both end with presto codas in the finale, both are primarily in Bb Major, both have great scherzos (the Beethoven is more complex and evocative, the Schubert more fun), both have long trills in the piano and stirring first movement themes. It was fascinating to compare them.

I would probably pay you to help me learn how to get up on a surf board, however.
I'm pretty phobic of sharks, though. 

My 20 yo son is the surf instructor...he's only seen one whitey in his 14 years of surfing.
I've only seen one in 40 years. 

[awesom_o]

It is great to hear you are enjoying playing in trio! I don't know the trio repertoire as well as I should, and I cannot comment upon that particular relationship, though I'm sure if you see it, it's probably there.

Not so with sharks, however! They could be out there! By the time you see it, it could be too late! 

Perhaps I can learn on Lake Superior.... No sharks are gonna swim UP Niagara Falls! 

I'm curious what you thought of Bronfman's control of balance and texture with the trio! Did the FFF from the Prok manage to creep its way into the ensemble inappropriately? Or was it fairly ideal?

[rob47]

bronfman is an absolute master imo; i heard him play rach 3 with the tso/peter oundjian years ago and it was the best
i would pay 100$+ to hear a solo recital of prok sonatas and beethoven

i've never really worked on prok 6 but iirc i read some article that there is a spot that prokofiev indicates use of fist at some point in it?

[awesom_o]

He definitely plays a mean Rach 3, that's for sure!

I've never worked on Prok 6 either but my friend plays it very well indeed-I'll have to ask him about the fist!

[j_menz]

Isn't it the role of the interpreter to make that decision? ..... Some think (and play) "yes," some, I would venture, "no."

Absolutely. But once that decision is made, that's the way it's gotta be played. Pianos are pretty strong.

[gvans]

I'm curious what you thought of Bronfman's control of balance and texture with the trio! Did the FFF from the Prok manage to creep its way into the ensemble inappropriately? Or was it fairly ideal?

No creep at all. His sense of ensemble was immaculate. There was a moment in the Archduke 1st movement development section where the strings play pizz and the piano does this descending trill--ah, it was sublime. Aural ecstasy. Played with perfect togetherness and delicacy.

Absolutely. But once that decision is made, that's the way it's gotta be played. Pianos are pretty strong.

Pianos are strong (this one was only knocked out of tune), but ears (mine especially), not so much...

[gvans]

bronfman is an absolute master imo; i heard him play rach 3 with the tso/peter oundjian years ago and it was the best
i would pay 100$+ to hear a solo recital of prok sonatas and beethoven
i've never really worked on prok 6 but iirc i read some article that there is a spot that prokofiev indicates use of fist at some point in it?

I got in for $50, so it felt like a deal. No regrets there. Just this lingering existential question regarding beauty vs. pain in art. I'll have to get a score of #6, or, anybody out there know about this fisting bit?

[louispodesta]

I heard Bronfman play Prokofiev Sonatas 4 and 6 last night, capped with Beethoven's Archduke, with Martin Beaver and Lynn Harrell. Bronfman is a magnificent pianist, able to wrest an enormous palette of sounds from the instrument. His technique is sovereign, and his ability to play lyric passages  most evocative.

At several times during the sonatas, Mr. Bronfman, a great bear of a man, pounded the piano during fff passages with such severity members of the audience noticably jumped, myself (twenty rows back) included, our ears in pain. It sounded, and felt, as if Soviet tanks crushed us beneath their steel treads. I have no doubt this was the intended effect. These moments were often followed by sweet passages played with utmost tenderness (although the Steinway D had to be re-tuned for the Beethoven, a trio rendition that contained not a single harsh tone, yet was full of fire and verve.

Is there ever a justification to draw painful tones from the piano? Does Art require this? Or is pounding the piano, well, just pounding the piano?

No," Art" does not require this, and yes, pounding is just that, pounding.  The only reason he plays it this way is that his manager told him that Alexander Toradze does the same thing, so he has to have the same size of testicles as he does.  I know this because I reviewed a recital he gave at the University of Texas in the early 1980's, and he pulled the same stunt.

Finally, as I have with many other posts, I cite original source material to elucidate my argument.  Accordingly, here is a link to a recording of the Prokofiev Tocatta which shows the proper dynamic level, as well as beautiful voicing.

Enjoy.

[gvans]

Thanks for the link. I much enjoyed Prokofiev's playing. The ancient piano roll technology isn't half bad.

I'll warrant Bronfman doesn't play the Toccata with such a touch. Interesting that he hasn't changed much in 30 years...and that you agree with me. There's never reason to pound, at least in my personal aesthetic.