technique improvement

[andrewkoay]

After a break from piano, I have decided to start afresh and break some more technique barriers so that I can play and perhaps compose some more technically difficult pieces that I like to play.

I have never been a big fan of technical exercises since I was young, almost all my training has been based on pieces. Now I have realized that there are some technique barriers for me. I have relied a lot on a free and relaxed arm and wrist  to minimize the movement of the fingers and it has worked amazing for me so far (thanks to my previous teacher), however this led me to neglect the development of my fingers, especially my finger independence.

I don't have a lot of time since I'm working full time right now, so I would want to improve my fingers using the most brutal and efficient way.

I have started on the Pischna's exercises since it looks quite promising on developing finger technique and will report on any progress that I can make. Any Pischna users who can offer me tips?

[dima_76557]

@ andrewkoay

Instead of doing Pischna, you may want to consider a shortcut for the development of your manual skills by going through Greg Irwin's "Finger Fitness" exercises:

&index=1
Take it easy. Don't rush. Do not go to the next exercise before you have learned the previous one. This will give you really EXCELLENT control over your hands and fingers.

[awesom_o]

I have started on the Pischna's exercises since it looks quite promising on developing finger technique.

I don't believe there exists such a thing as 'finger technique'. What you are referring to, I would describe as 'hand technique'. We don't play the piano with our fingers, we play with our hands!

I second d_o's suggestion that you do not waste your time with Pischna.

I recommend the study of scales and Bach for the development of technique. The ABC exercises are beneficial for people whose control of hands is poor, but it should only take about two weeks to study them thoroughly. From there onward, it is best to master Bach and to master scales.

Have you mastered the scales?

[nyiregyhazi]

I don't believe there exists such a thing as 'finger technique'. What you are referring to, I would describe as 'hand technique'. We don't play the piano with our fingers, we play with our hands!

In what sense? What do you mean? The fingers are what pass on energy. And the muscles are in the forearm. What do you mean by playing with the hand?

[flashyfingers]

I don't believe there exists such a thing as 'finger technique'. What you are referring to, I would describe as 'hand technique'. We don't play the piano with our fingers, we play with our hands!

I second d_o's suggestion that you do not waste your time with Pischna.

I recommend the study of scales and Bach for the development of technique. The ABC exercises are beneficial for people whose control of hands is poor, but it should only take about two weeks to study them thoroughly. From there onward, it is best to master Bach and to master scales.

Have you mastered the scales?

Yes, if you know just how to control your hands and how to use each finger properly, the bach preludes are excellent sight reading exercises, and are excellent for conditioning your new, strong hands. The fugues are the highest form of testing of musicality and control of each finger and your hands on an independent level.

[awesom_o]

In what sense? What do you mean? The fingers are what pass on energy. And the muscles are in the forearm. What do you mean by playing with the hand?

You might just have to take some lessons with me in order to find out!     

[nyiregyhazi]

You might just have to take some lessons with me in order to find out!    

I'm sure you'd have plenty of interesting ideas in a lesson. But if you're correcting the idea of playing with fingers , it shouldn't be too much to ask for a tangible explanation of the reasoning behind such an esoteric statement. We do play the piano with our fingers - so an alternative perspective needs supportive reasoning (especially when being sold as a correction to an accurate statement).

[awesom_o]

We do play the piano with our fingers

I play the piano with my mind! I'm not suggesting that the fingers do not play an important role in executing the mind's bidding.... but I strongly believe that 'finger-technique' is too much of a reductionist term for something as complex and multifaceted as musicianship. 

[nyiregyhazi]

I play the piano with my mind! I'm not suggesting that the fingers do not play an important role in executing the mind's bidding.... but I strongly believe that 'finger-technique' is too much of a reductionist term for something as complex and multifaceted as musicianship.  

But what does saying the hand mean? I see the importance of adding the need to link the rest of the body. But what does merely adding the palm to a finger do to change anything significant, either musically or physically? I don't follow. Fingers move keys and the arm supports is the summary I'd give. What does thinking of the hand moving a key instead of the finger do?

[philolog]

I don't think anyone can seriously doubt that we play the piano with our fingers (although there have been entire schools of thought that seem to think otherwise) and of course the supporting apparatus is important, as well. Just to put a humorous slant on this, I thought I'd refer to an anecdote about Godowsky. Supposedly he was once approached after a concert by a woman who asked him how he played the piano so beautifully with such small hands. He replied, "Madam, what makes you think we play the piano with our fingers." I've often wondered exactly what he meant. Did he mean that the fingers are only the end point or was he anticipating awesome's approach, in which it's the mind which is the ultimate "master?"

[nyiregyhazi]

I don't think anyone can seriously doubt that we play the piano with our fingers (although there have been entire schools of thought that seem to think otherwise) and of course the supporting apparatus is important, as well. Just to put a humorous slant on this, I thought I'd refer to an anecdote about Godowsky. Supposedly he was once approached after a concert by a woman who asked him how he played the piano so beautifully with such small hands. He replied, "Madam, what makes you think we play the piano with our fingers." I've often wondered exactly what he meant. Did he mean that the fingers are only the end point or was he anticipating awesome's approach, in which it's the mind which is the ultimate "master?"

Anything that turns a balanced whole into a polarisation is wrong. If I heard someone point out that lasagne is made with pasta I wouldn't say "it's made with beef, not pasta". I'd be an idiot if  fell into the illogical assumption that the two are mutually exclusive rather than complementary. I've heard various people make the silly claim that piano is played with the mind and "not" with the fingers. They're wrong. Cut their fingers off and see how their mind fares. Conversely, I've never once heard anyone who accurately observes that the piano is played by the fingers following it up by saying "not with the mind". I don't think anyone is ignorant or in conscious denial of that aspect. The issue is still what the mind has to do to make the fingers work properly. It doesn't change what is being sought but merely alters the labelling. Also, that woman may well have genuinely lacked physical flexibility to do what Godowsky could.

Anything that involves turning a balanced whole into just a single element is wrong, no matter how profound it might sound (awesome didn't polarise so I'm not levelling this at him but those who do). Regardless, the thing I was interested in was not the truism that the piano is played with the mind too. I'm still interested what it's supposed to mean to say the piano is played with the hand and not the fingers and exactly what the difference is meant to entail.

[andrewkoay]

@d_o

Thanks, the videos look interesting, I will have a look into these exercises too!

@awesome_o

To give you an indication of my current level, I can play the Chopin Concerto no.1, Rach 2, Appassionata, Chaconne by Godowsky-Bach without problems but I will struggle on the Thirds and surprisingly the Revolutionary etude where I lose fine finger control at high speeds. I'm planning to learn the Rach 3 too. I have plenty of hand, arm and wrist mobility and dexterity. My problem is with my finger independence especially on the 3rd 4th and 5th fingers, hence the Pischna exercises.

[flashyfingers]

@d_o

Thanks, the videos look interesting, I will have a look into these exercises too!

@awesome_o

To give you an indication of my current level, I can play the Chopin Concerto no.1, Rach 2, Appassionata, Chaconne by Godowsky-Bach without problems but I will struggle on the Thirds and surprisingly the Revolutionary etude where I lose fine finger control at high speeds. I'm planning to learn the Rach 3 too. I have plenty of hand, arm and wrist mobility and dexterity. My problem is with my finger independence especially on the 3rd 4th and 5th fingers, hence the Pischna exercises.

The only way to fix the 3rd 4th and fifth fingers is with careful, slow, deliberate, practice. SLOW, PATIENT. If you learn your works and TRY to coordinate the said fingers better, and aim at not only improving what your hand looks like (aim for relaxed, toned hand) but also improving the tone and amount of dynamics those week fingers can control, you will surely see your fate looking a little less grim

[awesom_o]

@awesome_o

To give you an indication of my current level, I can play the Chopin Concerto no.1, Rach 2, Appassionata, Chaconne by Godowsky-Bach without problems but I will struggle on the Thirds and surprisingly the Revolutionary etude where I lose fine finger control at high speeds. I'm planning to learn the Rach 3 too. I have plenty of hand, arm and wrist mobility and dexterity. My problem is with my finger independence especially on the 3rd 4th and 5th fingers, hence the Pischna exercises.

Listing those pieces gives me little information regarding your true musical ability.

That's why I'm curious if you have mastered the scales! Can you play the formula patterns in all keys, in four octaves, major, harmonic and melodic minor, with the hands separated by a third, a sixth, and an octave?

In case you don't know what formula patterns are, here:

[andrewkoay]

Listing those pieces gives me little information regarding your true musical ability.

That's why I'm curious if you have mastered the scales! Can you play the formula patterns in all keys, in four octaves, major, harmonic and melodic minor, with the hands separated by a third, a sixth, and an octave?

In case you don't know what formula patterns are, here:

I watched the videos. For me scales are not a problem at all and are the least of my worries. I can do all of them with ease at high speeds.

[flashyfingers]

I watched the videos. For me scales are not a problem at all and are the least of my worries. I can do all of them with ease at high speeds.

You really just need to be patient and work through your problems the old fashioned way (SLOOOW, EEEVEN). Are you shifting your weight of the arm evenly between fingers?

[awesom_o]

I watched the videos. For me scales are not a problem at all and are the least of my worries. I can do all of them with ease at high speeds.

High speeds are not the goal here.... control of sound is what we're after. Did you try melodic minor with the hands separated by a 6th?

[andrewkoay]

High speeds are not the goal here.... control of sound is what we're after. Did you try melodic minor with the hands separated by a 6th?

Haha, why would you think that I would have trouble with scales when I can play the abovementioned Chopin and Rach concertos easily along with most of the Chopin Etudes and other hard pieces like the Appassionata and Chaconne?  I have been able to do all sorts of scales with ease and control at high speeds in whatever configuration since grade 8 back when I was 9.

What I am looking for is to further elevate my technique (mechanical skills to be frank) to virtuoso levels so that I can play even harder pieces without breaking a sweat.

[nyiregyhazi]

Haha, why would you think that I would have trouble with scales when I can play the abovementioned Chopin and Rach concertos easily along with most of the Chopin Etudes and other hard pieces like the Appassionata and Chaconne?   I have been able to do all sorts of scales with ease and control at high speeds in whatever configuration since grade 8 back when I was 9.

What I am looking for is to further elevate my technique (mechanical skills to be frank) to virtuoso levels so that I can play even harder pieces without breaking a sweat.

Why not post a video then? Even advanced pianists usually have some specific problems. I recently gave a number of lessons to a concert pianist who played to a very high level, but there were specific issues in his technique which had room for attention and improvement. I wouldn't have been much use to him, however, if I just wrote down a few ideas and sent him to try them on his own, without hearing him play.  If you want meaningful advice, show us how you play.

[awesom_o]

Why not post a video then?..... If you want meaningful advice, show us how you play.

+1!

If you really can play the Chopin E minor concerto 'with ease' then you shouldn't be asking how to improve your technique! People who can play that concerto really well should have no problem earning the big bucks as professional concert pianists.... like Daniil Trifonov. He doesn't start threads here asking how to improve his mechanical skills to 'virtuoso levels'... he's too busy being engaged by the world's leading orchestras for gargantuan fees!  

I remember your recording of the Appassionata! It was definitely a solid performance, though I recall thinking the tone at FF could have been better sculpted.

Have you tried the Philipp exercises for the independence of fingers?

[swagmaster420x]

I thought I had a good grasp of scales because I could play them fast... But when I played them slowly and deliberately I realized they were much harder that way because then all I cared about was making the notes sound perfect. Which might have been more difficult in my case because the keys on my piano are uneven. But yeah, when you consider how you use different motions for pressing different keys in sequence to play scales, and actually try out practicing not for speed but for evenness, you'll realize that scales can be really excruciating. @andrewk

[awesom_o]

I thought I had a good grasp of scales because I could play them fast... But when I played them slowly and deliberately I realized they were much harder that way because then all I cared about was making the notes sound perfect.

Well said! Good scale playing is about incredible beauty of tone.... not just ease and control of high speed. To do this in 4 octave formula pattern, in all keys, particularly melodic minor, with the hands separated by a 6th, is not an easy thing to do.... and anyone who can demonstrate this feat with a high level of aesthetic beauty and confidence will have no need to improve their finger dexterity!

[andrewkoay]

+1!

If you really can play the Chopin E minor concerto 'with ease' then you shouldn't be asking how to improve your technique! People who can play that concerto really well should have no problem earning the big bucks as professional concert pianists.... like Daniil Trifonov. He doesn't start threads here asking how to improve his mechanical skills to 'virtuoso levels'... he's too busy being engaged by the world's leading orchestras for gargantuan fees!  

I remember your recording of the Appassionata! It was definitely a solid performance, though I recall thinking the tone at FF could have been better sculpted.

Have you tried the Philipp exercises for the independence of fingers?

Perhaps one day I will use some good recording equipment to record some videos! Unfortunately those are a bit beyond my reach now. I don't even have my own piano as it is now. 

Chopin's E minor concerto is not as hard as some of his or Liszt's or Rachmaninov's etudes and pieces which I want to play in my opinion. So I want to improve till I can play those convincingly.

I wish classical musicians can earn big bucks! Where I live the big bucks are reserved for teachers and professors and the performers are struggling like hell. I play solely for my enjoyment and not for money.

What are the Philipp exercises by the way? Might want to add those to my routine too.

[j_menz]

What are the Philipp exercises by the way? Might want to add those to my routine too.

https://imslp.org/wiki/Exercises_for_Independence_of_the_Fingers_(Philipp,_Isidor)

Only Book 1 there.  There are 2 Books, both published by Schirmer and available fairly reasonably priced pretty much anywhere (Eg, Vol 1, Vol 2).

Given each volume is only about 40 odd pages, I do think they could have bound them in one, but I guess there's a reason I'm not in marketing.

IMO, his Bach Transcriptions would be well worth your while having a look at.

[dima_76557]

@d_o

Thanks, the videos look interesting, I will have a look into these exercises too!

I am quite sure you will benefit from them because they directly address (and eliminate) the underlying coordinative weaknesses that are revealed while testing with some of the other options mentioned in this thread.

[flashyfingers]

I thought I had a good grasp of scales because I could play them fast... But when I played them slowly and deliberately I realized they were much harder that way because then all I cared about was making the notes sound perfect. Which might have been more difficult in my case because the keys on my piano are uneven. But yeah, when you consider how you use different motions for pressing different keys in sequence to play scales, and actually try out practicing not for speed but for evenness, you'll realize that scales can be really excruciating. @andrewk

YES. Perfect, equal in tone and dynamics and attack and release in each note.

Work on chromatic scales the most! and scales that have lots of flats and sharps. Work on dat A#minor and C# major, D# minor, and so on.

Try both hands in polyrhythms. 2 over 3, switch to 3 over 2, 4 over 3, etc.

[andrewkoay]

I am quite sure you will benefit from them because they directly address (and eliminate) the underlying coordinative weaknesses that are revealed while testing with some of the other options mentioned in this thread.

I tried them all yesterday and they are insanely hard! Can you do all of them smoothly?

[andrewkoay]

https://imslp.org/wiki/Exercises_for_Independence_of_the_Fingers_(Philipp,_Isidor)

Only Book 1 there.  There are 2 Books, both published by Schirmer and available fairly reasonably priced pretty much anywhere (Eg, Vol 1, Vol 2).

Given each volume is only about 40 odd pages, I do think they could have bound them in one, but I guess there's a reason I'm not in marketing.

IMO, his Bach Transcriptions would be well worth your while having a look at.

These seem quite similar to the Pischna exercises applied to a stretched hand using diminished chords. Pretty amazing!

[awesom_o]

These seem quite similar to the Pischna exercises applied to a stretched hand using diminished chords. Pretty amazing!

I much prefer them to Pischna. Make sure you transpose the Philipp into all keys!

[dima_76557]

I tried them all yesterday and they are insanely hard!

You've been a naughty boy! Didn't I tell you not to do the next one until you can do the previous one? Didn't I tell you to go really slowly at first? If there were no challenge there, I wouldn't have recommended them.

Can you do all of them smoothly?

I'll consider that a rhetorical question.

[andrewkoay]

These few days I have been using all three, Pischna, Philipp and the Greg Irwin's exercises.

I like the Pischna exercises, they all seem quite direct and straightforward. No. 25 seems quite intriguing, I wonder if I'm supposed to use more arm or purely fingers to play the repeated octaves? This sounds like a good exercise to develop octave strength.

For the Philipp exercises, the repeated notes are really a pain in the ass lol... other than that I like the various exercises and the fact that it is very easy to memorize. Fourth finger on the black keys are very tough for me right now, due to poor lifting.

I am still trying to figure some of Irwin's exercises. It all seems quite complicated and difficult to learn.

I feel that my hand and fingers are a lot stronger just in a few days work. All the Chopin Etudes I am working on currently seem a bit more effortless after all these exercises.

[awesom_o]

Why are you bothering to memorize Philipp exercises? That's precious hard-drive space that could be given to the WTC

Also, you mentioned something about poor lifting.... I don't recommend you lift the fingers!

[andrewkoay]

Why are you bothering to memorize Philipp exercises? That's precious hard-drive space that could be given to the WTC

Also, you mentioned something about poor lifting.... I don't recommend you lift the fingers!

Haha, I tend to memorize everything almost automatically for some unknown reason, including songs in supermarkets and on the radio. I can play about few hours worth of piano music from memory anyway, so I think I have plenty of hard drive space remaining.

With regards to the lifting, it's much easier to play the exercises when the fourth finger is on a white key but when it's on a black key the fourth finger is already elevated in relation to the other fingers (all the other fingers have to be held) and I have to lift it further to even play the note, which poses quite some difficulty for me, especially when the fourth finger is already stretched quite a bit.

[dima_76557]

I am still trying to figure some of Irwin's exercises. It all seems quite complicated and difficult to learn.

You should first of all control your desire to force your development. You have to master the simple elements thoroughly before you can go on to the combinations. In each of the sections (folds, bends, splits, taps), first you do finger by finger for a couple of days without speeding up prematurely (!), then two fingers, then three, etc. If you want to do it otherwise, better quit right now because you will be working against nature which is a lost game by definition.

[andrewkoay]

You should first of all control your desire to force your development. You have to master the simple elements thoroughly before you can go on to the combinations. In each of the sections (folds, bends, splits, taps), first you do finger by finger for a couple of days without speeding up prematurely (!), then two fingers, then three, etc. If you want to do it otherwise, better quit right now because you will be working against nature which is a lost game by definition.

Haha i'm not rushing it, I'm actually taking my time on them. I'm starting to see the link between these finger exercises and the technical studies.

[awesom_o]

Haha, I tend to memorize everything almost automatically for some unknown reason, including songs in supermarkets and on the radio. I can play about few hours worth of piano music from memory anyway, so I think I have plenty of hard drive space remaining.

With regards to the lifting, it's much easier to play the exercises when the fourth finger is on a white key but when it's on a black key the fourth finger is already elevated in relation to the other fingers (all the other fingers have to be held) and I have to lift it further to even play the note, which poses quite some difficulty for me, especially when the fourth finger is already stretched quite a bit.

It's good that you memorize easily and effortlessly. I understand what you mean by 'lifting'. Just make sure your fingers do not STRIKE the keys from above. They should 'caress' the keys from the actual key surface using a pulling motion. Remember, these are serious exercises....more akin to doing chin-ups with good form from a dead hang than say.... casually jogging around a track. Very little quantity is needed each day to get consistent results.

[nyiregyhazi]

With regards to the lifting, it's much easier to play the exercises when the fourth finger is on a white key but when it's on a black key the fourth finger is already elevated in relation to the other fingers (all the other fingers have to be held) and I have to lift it further to even play the note, which poses quite some difficulty for me, especially when the fourth finger is already stretched quite a bit.

I really don't follow this. Why would you have to lift the finger notably to play the note? It should just lengthen out over the top while the arm slides a touch forwards. It sounds to me like your hand is in a squashed position. Isolating the fourth is not the answer to that. You probably need to open the hand position better in general. See the end of this post for an explanation of why an open hand is so important to pianistic comfort

https://pianoscience.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/achieving-effortless-balance-within.html

[dima_76557]

I really don't follow this. Why would you have to lift the finger notably to play the note? It should just lengthen out over the top while the arm slides a touch forwards. It sounds to me like your hand is in a squashed position. Isolating the fourth is not the answer to that. You probably need to open the hand position better in general.

I suspect that the OP doesn't have the "right" hand for Philipp. Although they're not as dangerous as some of the Tausig exercises, these exercises are "risky" to some extent. I think that to do them without risk, you need quite a good stretch already between the fingers, especially 2-5. The OP's attempt to lift the 4th finger (that is already at - or should I say beyond? - its limit of extension) is a NATURAL attempt to compensate for the lack of room the flexors have to get the key down from the key surface.

[nyiregyhazi]

I suspect that the OP doesn't have the "right" hand for Philipp. Although they're not as dangerous as some of the Tausig exercises, these exercises are "risky" to some extent. I think that to do them without risk, you need quite a good stretch already between the fingers, especially 2-5. The OP's attempt to lift the 4th finger (that is already at - or should I say beyond? - its limit of extension) is a NATURAL attempt to compensate for the lack of room the flexors have to get the key down from the key surface.

If it's not already got enough space, the hand must be squashed-probably from arm pressure. The only time I lift a finger a little in these kinds of over holding exercises, it's integrated into the process of expanding the whole of the hand with it. It sounds to me like he's squashing down into the rest of the hand and straining to lift one finger alone against the downforce. that's a really bad idea, if so. Lifting fingers is only okay if you allow the hand an arm as a whole to be involved in drifting up. Rotation is really good for making sure that happens.

[dima_76557]

If it's not already got enough space, the hand must be squashed-probably from arm pressure. The only time I lift a finger a little in these kinds of over holding exercises, it's integrated into the process of expanding the whole of the hand with it.

As I recall from one of your articles, you have the reach of an octave between 2 and 5. IMHO, that's exactly what one needs to do those exercises comfortably. I can somehow imagine what it feels like when one has (far) less than that, needs to overhold a 5-voice diminshed seventh chord and repeat the fourth finger on a black key. A recipe for disaster if you ask me.

Grip, however slight, is a co-contraction of both flexors and extensors. With weakened, already overstretched extensors, flexors cannot work properly to hold the keys down, so pushing with the arm onto the structure is the only option left. As I understood from his post, to simply repeat the notes as written, the OP has to make an effort to lift the finger to simply make the key come up to be able to sound it again. I seriously hope I misunderstood what he wanted to say.

[awesom_o]

Philipp really helps to improve hand position. Everyone starts out with 'squashed' hands...Philipp trains the hands to be strong, flexible, and 'unsquashed'!

[nyiregyhazi]

Philipp really helps to improve hand position. Everyone starts out with 'squashed' hands...Philipp trains the hands to be strong, flexible, and 'unsquashed'!

I don't think that's a given. I spent a lot of time on similar dohnanyi exercises and learned nothing at the time. It's all down to whether you understand the physical procedures necessary for it to work. Basically, any sense of trying to overhold notes with arm pressure is doomed. You have to allow the knuckles to rise up in response to finger activity- not preserve the finger action solely due to the fact that there is arm pressure against them. If it's the latter, you cannot make room for the next fingers to get ready or to stop being squashed.

For success, the arm has to let the knuckles up and the wrist down. Then the fingers have to choose to keep keys depressed - not be limited to doing so only when reminded to wake up, by the arm pressing. Only from here does it become possible to both hold multiple notes clearly and also move the next fingers freely and without tension. Without getting that right from simple over holding exercises in c to g position, advanced exercises will just cause strain. Quality of movement is the only way for these to be valuable and there's nothing innate about the exercise that makes such quality evolve.

[nyiregyhazi]

As I recall from one of your articles, you have the reach of an octave between 2 and 5. IMHO, that's exactly what one needs to do those exercises comfortably. I can somehow imagine what it feels like when one has (far) less than that, needs to overhold a 5-voice diminshed seventh chord and repeat the fourth finger on a black key. A recipe for disaster if you ask me.

Grip, however slight, is a co-contraction of both flexors and extensors. With weakened, already overstretched extensors, flexors cannot work properly to hold the keys down, so pushing with the arm onto the structure is the only option left. As I understood from his post, to simply repeat the notes as written, the OP has to make an effort to lift the finger to simply make the key come up to be able to sound it again. I seriously hope I misunderstood what he wanted to say.

If that's the case, as I suspect too, he'll do himself no good until he opens the hand in general, rather than strain to lift four. If the key can't push it back up, you're already screwed.

I've only just got that octave reach. I'm not much beyond average, if at all. I tried much larger stretches, for equivalence including a fourth between 4 and 5 while all other fingers had keys- and there was no issue with getting the fourth ready. The only issue that could cause that for me was a seriously squashed up hand with depressed knuckles.

I don't buy the idea that flexors hold keys down in these complex combinations, personally. I find its far easier when a sense of lengthening is the primary issue. This both expands the knuckles away, if you let the arm respond without stiffness, and gives a low effort means of getting clarity of contact. I feel a touch of inward grip sometimes, but I see that a possible add on rather than the fundamental action in simple over holding. I used to overdo it massively when I got these things wrong.

If you're using flexors notably, by the time the hand is open the action is virtually horizontal. That means you'd slip unless you dig in with the arm. A sense of balance through lengthening with an optional trace of gripping was what made it possible for me to do these kinds of things in a simple manner without any straining. Even if I do move the key only by raking back from the knuckle, the balanced state that follows involves a switch of muscle groups, not a continuous ongoing flexion. On that basis, not even the most extreme position my hand can reach would see me straining to get my fourth up, any more. Lengthening actions within an open position were the secret to my being able to do these kinds of things. They keep the hand open and the keys easily grounded without any of the needless down force that would see a fourth finger straining to lift up.

PS. I just tried now and it's very hard to lift any fingers when consciously keeping flexion in another. The indirect angle encourages arm pressure (to stop the finger slipping) which in itself stops the knuckles going up easily. But worse still, there's a physical conflict. I can feel I'm working against the actions that would lift any other finger ready to play. When you keep keys depressed by a lengthening, the action is actively elevating your knuckles in general. If the knuckle of that finger is going up, that of the next finger will be helped too. And if I choose to lift any other fingers, they move free of conflict in a way that links easily  to the whole arm - all while the overheld notes stay clearly and simply down. I think flexion is everything you must avoid for success in overholding, except perhaps the faintest trace in the knuckle alone.

[kevin69]

You should first of all control your desire to force your development. You have to master the simple elements thoroughly before you can go on to the combinations. In each of the sections (folds, bends, splits, taps), first you do finger by finger for a couple of days without speeding up prematurely (!), then two fingers, then three, etc. If you want to do it otherwise, better quit right now because you will be working against nature which is a lost game by definition.

I have tried the bends and folds and cannot bend or fold the fourth finger of my right hand in isolation  even if I am holding the other fingers for support.

Is there an even simpler place to start?

[andrewkoay]

As I recall from one of your articles, you have the reach of an octave between 2 and 5. IMHO, that's exactly what one needs to do those exercises comfortably. I can somehow imagine what it feels like when one has (far) less than that, needs to overhold a 5-voice diminshed seventh chord and repeat the fourth finger on a black key. A recipe for disaster if you ask me.

Grip, however slight, is a co-contraction of both flexors and extensors. With weakened, already overstretched extensors, flexors cannot work properly to hold the keys down, so pushing with the arm onto the structure is the only option left. As I understood from his post, to simply repeat the notes as written, the OP has to make an effort to lift the finger to simply make the key come up to be able to sound it again. I seriously hope I misunderstood what he wanted to say.

The diminished chord is actually quite a tough stretch for me as my span between 3-4 and 4-5 is not that great. I can play most of the Philipp exercises, just that the repeated notes with four on the black keys is tough for me, as I do have to feel the lengthening of my fingers to reach it, which reduces my range of movement somewhat.

I can do c-g hand holding exercises comfortably.

The Pischna exercises feel a lot better for me as the stretching component is not so severe.

[dima_76557]

I have tried the bends and folds and cannot bend or fold the fourth finger of my right hand in isolation  even if I am holding the other fingers for support.

Is there an even simpler place to start?

Greg Irwin says somewhere on his site (handhealth.com) that 30-40% of the population can't do that. They should just accept that as a given but still get the max out of the exercises with the other fingers.

The goal is not to train muscles, but to create a "finger-thought connection". It is the absence of this "finger-thought" link in the so-called "weaker" fingers that is usually felt as "lack of finger strength".

P.S.: Neither should one strive to be just as good as Greg himself. Speed should be the result of being able to do everything automatically. That takes some time, of course.

[kevin69]

Greg Irwin says somewhere on his site (handhealth.com) that 30-40% of the population can't do that. They should just accept that as a given but still get the max out of the exercises with the other fingers.

The goal is not to train muscles, but to create a "finger-thought connection". It is the absence of this "finger-thought" link in the so-called "weaker" fingers that is usually felt as "lack of finger strength".

P.S.: Neither should one strive to be just as good as Greg himself. Speed should be the result of being able to do everything automatically. That takes some time, of course.

Thanks for that.
It's definitely not a strength issue: I can feel lots of tension in my fingers, I just can't make them move. I suppose that this also relates to choosing comfortable fingerings. I find that I sometimes prefer not to use my little finger because I have less independent control of it.