How to deal with "rhythm deafness"?

[juleusjohn]

I'm introducing my friend to the keyboard, and after some basic lessons. I found out that she has  NO SENSE OF RHYTHM AT ALL. Like this guy,

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/body-odd/cant-feel-rhythm-you-may-be-beat-deaf-f1C6437334

She has no timing whatsoever, as a test, I told her to clap her hands according to the rhythm or pulse of the several songs I played for her, and she can't sense it at all. Her clapping is all over the place which means she can't really feel the rhythm.

She could however, perform better if I clap along with her, but over the duration of the song she slips into her own beat anyway.

I would like to know if any of you guys here have encountered this kind of problem before? and how did you manage around it? What is your advice on this matter and how exactly is it cured or solved?

[cwjalex]

that's fascinating.  i didn't think beat deafness was a real thing.  it's weird because i've seen so many babies move in rhythm to music...i always thought everyone was born with a sense of rhythm.  anyways, as for your friend have you tried using a metronome to have her clap in time?  what if you have her think about rhythm as a sense of time.  have her look at a stopwatch and then have her try to clap every second.  maybe then try to find a piece of music that is 60 or 120 beats per minute so you can relate the music to the counting of seconds. 

im curious if these people who are beat deaf also have an extremely poor sense of time.  if your mind is occupied or are engaged in an activity it can be difficult to gauge time but i think most people have a general sense if lets say a few minutes, a half an hour, or a few hours have elapsed.

[juleusjohn]

It's very real, and it's a huge problem. She has always wanted to play the keyboard, but now it is faced with a huge challenge. Yes I have tried to introduce her to the metronome, at first she can keep in time, but after 2-3 minutes she slowly begins to lose the "feel" and "sense" of timing accordingly without putting a considerable amount of mental effort, especially in lower tempos.

[cwjalex]

maybe that's the only answer then, considerable mental effort on her part.  i don't know any other answer.  maybe develop some exercises she can do on a daily basis to help her develop rhythm.  maybe listen to music and try to mentally add a metronome to it.  i feel really bad for these people trying to learn an instrument.  even for people with a normal sense of rhythm it is extremely difficult to learn an instrument.  in my opinion rhythm is the most important aspect of music so someone who has 'rhythm deafness' sure has an uphill battle.

[juleusjohn]

*sigh* I know, after witnessing her burning passion for learning, I just want to help her in anyway I can. And I know it will be hard because it's a problem related to brain development, and not enough research has been put into it over the past 10 years. Honestly I don't know what to do, the last thing that I'm thinking of considering is telling her that she might not be able to play the instrument at all, but by then the only question that would be left on my part would be when to tell her. *sigh*

[hfmadopter]

*sigh* I know, after witnessing her burning passion for learning, I just want to help her in anyway I can. And I know it will be hard because it's a problem related to brain development, and not enough research has been put into it over the past 10 years. Honestly I don't know what to do, the last thing that I'm thinking of considering is telling her that she might not be able to play the instrument at all, but by then the only question that would be left on my part would be when to tell her. *sigh*

Don't over think it ! First slow the pieces she is learning way down and make her count the beat out loud till she gets it for each piece. After a while she will learn to count to herself and then pick the piece up from there. The metronome is good to set the tempo with and to set up her initial counting but then shut it off. It's too external for her to develop internal timing with. you want her to develop from within. She will also learn to count half beats and to count through complication in pieces. For a while tap with her through some of this but not continuously ( my teacher used to tap a pencil when I started off track but not so much count herself, though sometimes she did that too). Try it, make her do this and  be diligent about it.

[juleusjohn]

I have tried with the metronome, and it's hopeless. But I'll try your variation, maybe it will work. Thanks.

[ted]

How about trying her on some simple boogie, ragtime, swing, jazz or pop ? Can she play a boogie bass in rhythm ? Something with a reasonably fast, driving beat, which leaves no time to falter. Does she listen to, and enjoy such music ? Can she dance to it ? Move to it ? Sing with it ? Clap her hands to it ? The sound of a metronome is about as rhythmically exciting as a clock.   

[nyiregyhazi]

Rhythm has to start physically, not conceptually. Start with flowing movements into a tap and a long continuous drawing back of the hand in preparation for the next one. If the student can't do this movement, take their wrist and move them on their behalf so they can feel. When this is mastered, make it sharper but accent AWAY as much as down into the tap. The up movement needs to be as sharp and rhythmic as the tap itself. Too many students feel an empty sense of waiting and they lose the physical flow before the next tap. Accenting the up keeps a sense of ongoing physical rhythm.

Only when these kinds of things have become physically natural is there any hope of conceiving rhythms properly on a purely internal mental level.

[juleusjohn]

How about trying her on some simple boogie, ragtime, swing, jazz or pop ? Can she play a boogie bass in rhythm ? Something with a reasonably fast, driving beat, which leaves no time to falter. Does she listen to, and enjoy such music ? Can she dance to it ? Move to it ? Sing with it ? Clap her hands to it ? The sound of a metronome is about as rhythmically exciting as a clock.   

She can't actually dance to any other type of music at all, she may attempt to, but she creates her whole new world, where it's complete off from the normal rhythm.

[juleusjohn]

Rhythm has to start physically, not conceptually. Start with flowing movements into a tap and a long continuous drawing back of the hand in preparation for the next one. If the student can't do this movement, take their wrist and move them on their behalf so they can feel. When this is mastered, make it sharper but accent AWAY as much as down into the tap. The up movement needs to be as sharp and rhythmic as the tap itself. Too many students feel an empty sense of waiting and they lose the physical flow before the next tap. Accenting the up keeps a sense of ongoing physical rhythm.

Only when these kinds of things have become physically natural is there any hope of conceiving rhythms properly on a purely internal mental level.

Can you give me some clarifications on this? I'm really interested in your suggestion.

[quantum]

Try walking or marching to a tune.  Hum, sing, or tap out a rhythm while walking.  You need to show her how to fit the rhythm into the walk. 

[nyiregyhazi]

Can you give me some clarifications on this? I'm really interested in your suggestion.

Which bits? It's really just a matter of you moving them, if they can't feel it at first. And making sure everything flows. It doesn't work if they tap and then stop and wait. Feeling the away movement to be rhythmic makes it more likely that returning for the next tap is also rhythmic.

[louispodesta]

I'm introducing my friend to the keyboard, and after some basic lessons. I found out that she has  NO SENSE OF RHYTHM AT ALL. Like this guy,

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/body-odd/cant-feel-rhythm-you-may-be-beat-deaf-f1C6437334

She has no timing whatsoever, as a test, I told her to clap her hands according to the rhythm or pulse of the several songs I played for her, and she can't sense it at all. Her clapping is all over the place which means she can't really feel the rhythm.

She could however, perform better if I clap along with her, but over the duration of the song she slips into her own beat anyway.

I would like to know if any of you guys here have encountered this kind of problem before? and how did you manage around it? What is your advice on this matter and how exactly is it cured or solved?

Every music conservatory in the world requires two years (four semesters) of the following rhythmic training:
https://musiced.about.com/od/lessonplans/p/dalcroze.htm

Why?  Because, for well over a hundred years, it works!  Earl Wild was taught this at Carnegie-Tech, when he was 13 years old.

Please go to their website https://dalcrozeusa.org/ and find a time and place for their next introductory course.  Your student is NORMAL!!!

And, you are a great teacher for seeking a solution for this very common problem.

[nyiregyhazi]

Every music conservatory in the world requires two years (four semesters) of the following rhythmic training:
https://musiced.about.com/od/lessonplans/p/dalcroze.htm

Mine certainly didn't. I'm not knocking it as I have no personal experience of it- but both it and yourself might be taken more seriously if you didn't pluck facts out of thin air.

[lostinidlewonder]

I haven't ever met anyone who cannot develop their beat and rhythmic sense. It makes me think that total deafness in these is extremely rare.
I have taught many who have very poor sense of rythmn and beat but they all can develop. Rhythmic sticks, rhythmic solfeg, learning to count, all these things can help.

[louispodesta]

Mine certainly didn't. I'm not knocking it as I have no personal experience of it- but both it and yourself might be taken more seriously if you didn't pluck facts out of thin air.

The sentence should have read:  Every major music conservatory in the world "now" requires two years (four semesters) of the following rhythmic training:

1) Find one that doesn't, and 2) you crown yourself the reigning expert on everything and you have no training in Dalcroze, which has been around for over a hundred years!

[nyiregyhazi]

The sentence should have read:  Every major music conservatory in the world "now" requires two years (four semesters) of the following rhythmic training:

1) Find one that doesn't, and 2) you crown yourself the reigning expert on everything and you have no training in Dalcroze, which has been around for over a hundred years!

What is your evidence for this? I might believe you, were it not for your record of casually inventing facts. I have no doubt that a number of major conservatories use it. But that doesn't mean you need to make such a silly sweeping statement as to suggest that it is universally included. Have you made a phone call to every major conservatory in the world to verify? How about a list of the ones you have actually verified? Are any of them even outside America - seeing as you specified the whole world? Or did you hear of a few in your homeland and decide that America counts as the whole world?

[j_menz]

The sentence should have read:  Every major music conservatory in the world "now" requires two years (four semesters) of the following rhythmic training:

1) Find one that doesn't, and 2) you crown yourself the reigning expert on everything and you have no training in Dalcroze, which has been around for over a hundred years!

Juilliard, which actually has a Dalcroze centre and offers training and teacher accreditation in the method, doesn't mandate it as part of their B Mus in piano at all, much less for two years.

Then I suppose Juilliard doesn't count as a major conservatory these days.

[quantum]

The sentence should have read:  Every major music conservatory in the world "now" requires two years (four semesters) of the following rhythmic training:

1) Find one that doesn't, and 2) you crown yourself the reigning expert on everything and you have no training in Dalcroze, which has been around for over a hundred years!

That is a rather reckless argument to make.  The onus of providing evidence lies on the person making the argument, not the readers.  Broad sweeping claims such as this only bring into question the integrity of the argument. 

[juleusjohn]

Which bits? It's really just a matter of you moving them, if they can't feel it at first. And making sure everything flows. It doesn't work if they tap and then stop and wait. Feeling the away movement to be rhythmic makes it more likely that returning for the next tap is also rhythmic.

I don't really understand, but I feel like it's very important, please clarify your instructions because I'd like to use your guide, what is this 'away' beat you're speaking of? How do we perform this and everything you just said physically?

Thanks

[juleusjohn]

Every music conservatory in the world requires two years (four semesters) of the following rhythmic training:
https://musiced.about.com/od/lessonplans/p/dalcroze.htm

Why?  Because, for well over a hundred years, it works!  Earl Wild was taught this at Carnegie-Tech, when he was 13 years old.

Please go to their website https://dalcrozeusa.org/ and find a time and place for their next introductory course.  Your student is NORMAL!!!

And, you are a great teacher for seeking a solution for this very common problem.

Thanks, I have also discovered this dalcroze method lately, does it really work? And what if I am not living in the USA, do they have online courses as well?

[juleusjohn]

Everybody, I'd like to update that I just introduced my student to playing drums and is now learning the fundamentals, because I think the "drums" is the most rhythmic instrument of all, and having her learn and play the basics (like eight notes in the hi-hat) will get her to be emerged in a world of rhythm and hopefully develop the skill herself, what are you thoughts on this?

[nyiregyhazi]

I don't really understand, but I feel like it's very important, please clarify your instructions because I'd like to use your guide, what is this 'away' beat you're speaking of? How do we perform this and everything you just said physically?

Thanks

It's simply a rhythmic movement away, between taps. I don't know how else  I can describe it. Sometimes pull away sharply like a beat in itself and sometimes flow gently away ready to flow into the next tap. Basically, it's about staying in motion so you're not stopping the physical flow and trying to judge the next tap intellectually. It needs to start with continuous physical flow.

[juleusjohn]

It's simply a rhythmic movement away, between taps. I don't know how else  I can describe it. Sometimes pull away sharply like a beat in itself and sometimes flow gently away ready to flow into the next tap. Basically, it's about staying in motion so you're not stopping the physical flow and trying to judge the next tap intellectually. It needs to start with continuous physical flow.

I see, so it all comes back to tapping and clapping, is that it?

[nyiregyhazi]

I see, so it all comes back to tapping and clapping, is that it?

Yes- but specifically in a way where movement flows as much away from beats as towards them.

[juleusjohn]

Yes- but specifically in a way where movement flows as much away from beats as towards them.

Do you think teaching her drums will be beneficial?

[timothy42b]

Try walking or marching to a tune. 

Yes.  I think this is the most likely of all suggestions to work.  The coordinated whole body motion of walking should do it, if anything can ( and it isn't guaranteed that anything can).

Can she run?  That might work too (but after a while she'll be too far away to hear you).

Now, this one is pretty advanced, and I have some doubts it will work with someone this challenged, but just in case you're interested:

sometimes with handbell students we use a tennis ball and have them bounce it on the floor.  That is because every movement has precursors that must be done before the beat, and the body must learn to time them in.  Bouncing a tennis ball is a very slow movement that has a lot of preparation if you want to hit the floor on time.  You can then learn to dribble it like a basketball.  Er, maybe! 

[louispodesta]

I'm introducing my friend to the keyboard, and after some basic lessons. I found out that she has  NO SENSE OF RHYTHM AT ALL. Like this guy,

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/body-odd/cant-feel-rhythm-you-may-be-beat-deaf-f1C6437334

She has no timing whatsoever, as a test, I told her to clap her hands according to the rhythm or pulse of the several songs I played for her, and she can't sense it at all. Her clapping is all over the place which means she can't really feel the rhythm.

She could however, perform better if I clap along with her, but over the duration of the song she slips into her own beat anyway.

I would like to know if any of you guys here have encountered this kind of problem before? and how did you manage around it? What is your advice on this matter and how exactly is it cured or solved?

Tiny, in size but not stature, Hope College (Holland, Michigan) requires one year of Dalcroze Eurythmics taught by Charles Aschbrenner.  This pianist, with two degrees from Illinois and Yale, studied under Nadia Boulanger and Adele Marcus.  He knows most everything there is to know about the concept/science of rhythm PEDAGOGY!!.

Dalcroze is a solution, developed and taught over a hundred years, which is readly available to you and your student.

[nyiregyhazi]

Tiny, in size but not stature, Hope College (Holland, Michigan) requires one year of Dalcroze Eurythmics taught by Charles Aschbrenner.  This pianist, with two degrees from Illinois and Yale, studied under Nadia Boulanger and Adele Marcus.  He knows most everything there is to know about the concept/science of rhythm PEDAGOGY!!.

Dalcroze is a solution, developed and taught over a hundred years, which is readly available to you and your student.

So not even this first example you've given actually does the two years that you previously said every major college in the whole world enforces?

It might pay to hold back on the invention of facts, next time you're promoting something, if you wish to be taken seriously as a poster. Plain honest truths are a lot more powerful for promotion purposes than fiction. You could have simply stated it that way in the first place, without making up sensationalist nonsense. Although having said, after the outrageous claims you made earlier, it's hard to be 100% sure about the seemingly innocuous statements in that post.

[juleusjohn]

So, will teaching her drums work or not?

[pianoplunker]

So, will teaching her drums work or not?

Actually in modern R&B, Blues , Rock Country, the piano and drums relate as rhythm instruments. If she has the capability and practice space and nice neighbors , drums could work.  Let's just hope she does not spontaneously explode as many other drummers have

[nyiregyhazi]

So, will teaching her drums work or not?

It depends whether she learns to move rhythmically or not. Physical flow is the key.