Are the Chopin polonaises overrated in terms of difficulty?

[justanamateur]

I've been playing around with the polonaises lately, and I'm actually surprised by how easy they turned out to be. From what I've read from PS and other sites before, around half of the polonaises are really hard - there's one forum where a user listed the 'Heroic' as being more difficult than all the ballades. Under Henle's rankings, for example, few of these pieces were rated under grade 6 (the highest 'intermediate' grade), and quite a few were rated as 7 or above (i.e. advanced).

However, when I actually sat down to play them, I found that they seem much easier than they sound when played by Horowitz/look in the score/are reputed to be.  In fact, I only started on the Heroic a couple of days ago, and about half of the piece is already beginning to take shape. Obviously, I'm still miles behind finished (absolutely not in a state where I'm willing to make a recording haha), but it seems that it all falls under the fingers very easily. So much for the supposedly impossible polonaise...

That's really odd, because by Bernhard's rankings, for example, the Heroic is 'really advanced', whereas the nocturne op 48 no 1 is 'just above grade 8'. The nocturne is pretty much impossible to me, with a hard octave section and a recurrence of the main theme that I'll probably never manage to voice. The Heroic? So far the biggest problems are the trills on the 5-4-5 fingers (the 4-5-4 ones are considerably easier) and the left-hand octaves, and of course there are a couple of fast arpeggios (I suck at fast arpeggios). However, with practice, the scariness of even these difficulties are beginning to wane.

so... is there something about the polonaises I'm not getting? A hidden difficulty? I realise there are some musical difficulties, like voicing out the main melodies with your pinky when there are big chords. Maybe the hidden difficulty lies in maintaining the triple meter feel despite the odd phrasing? or is it controlling the dynamics? is there some other difficulty I'm not getting? or is the world just overrating the polonaises' difficulty?

Thanks in advance. 

[awesom_o]

The difficulty is in playing them extremely well. You're probably not doing that if you think they're easy.

Unless you're a genius, on the verge of some sort of an international concert career.

Why don't you share your interpretations with the community over in the audition room? 

[justanamateur]

The difficulty is in playing them extremely well. You're probably not doing that if you think they're easy.

I never aim to play anything extremely well. If I get all (or most) of the notes, phrasing, voicing and dynamics right, I'm more than happy with it.

Unless you're a genius, on the verge of some sort of an international concert career.

Nope, I'm a rubbish teenage pianist who plays the piano only when he's bored. I'm just curious as to why the polonaises seem to be easier than other pieces rated at the same level. I fail to see how the pretty-much-impossible 48/1 is harder than, say, the Op 44...

Why don't you share your interpretations with the community over in the audition room?  

Like I said, I've only been playing around... I do think I've been really getting into the Heroic. Maybe, if I get to finish it, I can do that. (It will suck, haha. Your help will certainly be helpful then. )

Really, what I want to know is why the polonaises are difficult. Why are the rated that way? I can see why, for example, 62/2 is rated as 'slightly above grade 8' even though it's technically easier than the Op 18, which is Grade 8: Op 18 is musically a walk in the park as long as you know the triple meter, while 62/2 requires much work in phrasing and voicing the various parts.  

[blazekenny]

You are obviously not getting it. Dance forms are some of the hardest chopins.
The main problem in the Heroic is not the technique or phrasing, but playing the actual polonaise. Knowing where you can afford bigger, or miniature nuances, but as a whole still keeping strict polonaise rhytm - thats a big problem which is extremely hard to solve. I am playing the Spinach polonaise now and its a pain in the ass )

[justanamateur]

Thanks for the helpful reply blazekenny.

You are obviously not getting it. Dance forms are some of the hardest chopins.
The main problem in the Heroic is not the technique or phrasing, but playing the actual polonaise. Knowing where you can afford bigger, or miniature nuances, but as a whole still keeping strict polonaise rhytm - thats a big problem which is extremely hard to solve.

I see what you mean there. Could you elaborate on this difficulty? What exactly is to be kept in mind when one plays a polonaise? I've done some googling, but I'm yet to find a sufficiently useful resource regarding the application of the polonaise rhythm in Chopin's polonaises.

I am playing the Spinach polonaise now and its a pain in the ass )

The Spinach Polonaise?   Is that a pun on bolognaise?

In all seriousness, I've never heard of that sobriquet. Which polonaise is that? A Google search returned nothing.

ETA: Is that actually a humorous nickname for the Op 22?

[blazekenny]

Thanks for the helpful reply blazekenny.

I see what you mean there. Could you elaborate on this difficulty? What exactly is to be kept in mind when one plays a polonaise? I've done some googling, but I'm yet to find a sufficiently useful resource regarding the application of the polonaise rhythm in Chopin's polonaises.

The Spinach Polonaise?   Is that a pun on bolognaise?

In all seriousness, I've never heard of that sobriquet. Which polonaise is that? A Google search returned nothing.

ETA: Is that actually a humorous nickname for the Op 22?

Haha, yes, that is how the professors and pianists call the op. 22 for ages, so it also infected me

Well i dont think there is any manual as How to play polonaises. I dont think you should apply the polonaise rhytm - the polonaise rhytm should be in you naturally and only apply your musical nuances. The problem is - whether there are too little of them, or too many. It still needs to remain a dance form ! But on the other hand, still Chopinesque and beautiful....

[awesom_o]

Well i dont think there is any manual as How to play polonaises. I dont think you should apply the polonaise rhytm - the polonaise rhytm should be in you naturally and only apply your musical nuances. The problem is - whether there are too little of them, or too many. It still needs to remain a dance form ! But on the other hand, still Chopinesque and beautiful....

+1. The polonaise rhythm is not something that you APPLY to the polonaise.... like a coat of paint over primer. Playing Chopin with beautiful conception of nuance, without sounding self-indulgent takes serious musicianship!

An artist does not look at the music of a great composer such as Chopin and think to himself 'hmm... this one is grade 8... this one is grade 9.... this one is just a walk in the park...'!

I implore you to think back to a time BEFORE google... before the internet.... before piano forums.... and USE your brain to develop your perspective on the wonderful music of Chopin!

And don't say things like "I never aim to play anything extremely well... I only play when I'm bored"!

If you take music seriously, people will take you seriously. If you don't take music seriously.........

[blazekenny]

+1. The polonaise rhythm is not something that you APPLY to the polonaise.... like a coat of paint over primer. Playing Chopin with beautiful conception of nuance, without sounding self-indulgent takes serious musicianship!

An artist does not look at the music of a great composer such as Chopin and think to himself 'hmm... this one is grade 8... this one is grade 9.... this one is just a walk in the park...'!

I implore you to think back to a time BEFORE google... before the internet.... before piano forums.... and USE your brain to develop your perspective on the wonderful music of Chopin!

And don't say things like "I never aim to play anything extremely well... I only play when I'm bored"!

If you take music seriously, people will take you seriously. If you don't take music seriously.........

Well, I think he plays for his own enjoyment and just wanted to know what it takes to play a polonaise and what are its difficulties.

[awesom_o]

Well, if there are no standards, then I suppose there are no difficulties, and it is very easy to play any polonaise in a manner that would have Chopin turning in his grave! 

[lelle]

That the Heroic polonaise is harder than the ballades doesn't sound right to me. There is a lot of virtuoso passagework in the ballades that is very awkward to play unless you are very skilled. But it is all relative and depends on your strengths and weaknesses. However if you want to play the polonaises you mentioned at performance tempo, even if you don't care about musical details, it also takes a lot of skill. Playing the left hand octaves without fatigue, fast scales, arpeggios, a lot of position shifts along the keyboard, etc. And in op 44 you need to be able to do a lot of fast octaves. Unless you plan on playing all the polonaises really slowly - then I guess it's easier lol.

[blazekenny]

Well, if there are no standards, then I suppose there are no difficulties, and it is very easy to play any polonaise in a manner that would have Chopin turning in his grave! 

Yeah, that is very true. But I think he indeed has no standards - just wants to know how come it is so hard for people, who have standards and difficulties

[awesom_o]

Yeah, that is very true. But I think he indeed has no standards - just wants to know how come it is so hard for people, who have standards and difficulties

Well, the answer to that is quite simple! When attempting to play Chopin on the international stage for big money, you are competing directly for EXTREMELY limited employment opportunities with living legends like Krystian Zimerman and Garrick Olhsson... who are still very much alive and kicking!

You have one single chance to make the Chopin sound at least as good as theirs... and if you screw up, concert promoters will hire THEM and not YOU. After all, they already have the big names, and can guarantee ticket sales...whereas you, as an up-and-coming young artist, are a nobody!

In order to establish a real reputation, you have to be quite something! 

[ianw]

I see that www.pianosyllabus.com has 13 polonaises listed,  down to grade 5, so at least some of them are 'accessible'.

Distribution:
Grade 5: 1
Grade 6: 2
Grade 7: 1
Grade 8: 1
Grade 9: 3
Grade 10: 5

[quantum]

IMO there is a distinction between standards for artistic merit and standards for profit.  While the two positions have points that coincide there are also different goals that may be driving the musical decisions of either one.  Just because something sells doesn't automatically mean it has achieved a certain standard, and vice versa.  

[j_menz]

and it is very easy to play any polonaise in a manner that would have Chopin turning in his grave! 

After 150+ years of hearing them massacred, it probably actually takes quite a remarkably horrid job to even stir him these days.

[justanamateur]

It's true that I play for myself... but I do have standards.

My standards are
-it must satisfy my ear - in this case, it must sound like Rubinstein's interpretation. I don't care if it's just a cheap imitation thereof, for the same reason that people get hyped up about their counterfeit Gucci bags   (At the moment, I am nowhere near this. My descending LH octaves are nearing the standard speed now... but if you ever hear me play, you'll probably puke...)
-I have an appetite for loud chords and rapid passages, so my playing must satisfy my arms and fingers' undying thirst for thrill... and by getting the first few pages up to speed, I'm already starting to do that.   (I can manage the second page HT, and the second page HS up to speed. I haven't been practising the first page too much because the chromatic fourths are boring. Yeah, I just play for myself.) [NB: I know this is not a good attitude towards piano playing, but whatever.]

That the Heroic polonaise is harder than the ballades doesn't sound right to me. There is a lot of virtuoso passagework in the ballades that is very awkward to play unless you are very skilled. But it is all relative and depends on your strengths and weaknesses. However if you want to play the polonaises you mentioned at performance tempo, even if you don't care about musical details, it also takes a lot of skill. Playing the left hand octaves without fatigue, fast scales, arpeggios, a lot of position shifts along the keyboard, etc. And in op 44 you need to be able to do a lot of fast octaves. Unless you plan on playing all the polonaises really slowly - then I guess it's easier lol.

Musical details are another thing, but doing them at performance tempo - that's something I think I've been managing fairly well, despite my limited (if not non-existent) skill at the piano.

[lelle]

The thing is, if your standards are only to satisfy your own ears in whatever way you measure that it is impossible for us to tell you if the polonaises are overrated in difficulty or not, which is what you asked about in the OP. To give a clean performance that is convincing to an audience of any of them is very difficult, because you need to be very good with technique, pedal, conveying structure, interpretation, etc etc

[justanamateur]

The thing is, if your standards are only to satisfy your own ears in whatever way you measure that it is impossible for us to tell you if the polonaises are overrated in difficulty or not, which is what you asked about in the OP. To give a clean performance that is convincing to an audience of any of them is very difficult, because you need to be very good with technique, pedal, conveying structure, interpretation, etc etc

It's like blazekenny said, 'I think he indeed has no standards - just wants to know how come it is so hard for people, who have standards and difficulties.' What do you mean by 'conveying structure'? Is it playing the polonaise like a movement in sonata form, hearing the theme developed?

[lelle]

Sometimes you can do the musical details very well but the big picture becomes bland. For example in op 44 what essentially is the same musical material is repeated a total of five times over the course of the piece. And then there is that bizarre march like section, and then the mazurka middle section, where there also is a lot of repeating material. And you somehow have to connect all that into a cohesive whole that flows and feels logical and doesn't feel boring due to lack of variation and so on.

[justanamateur]

Sometimes you can do the musical details very well but the big picture becomes bland. For example in op 44 what essentially is the same musical material is repeated a total of five times over the course of the piece. And then there is that bizarre march like section, and then the mazurka middle section, where there also is a lot of repeating material. And you somehow have to connect all that into a cohesive whole that flows and feels logical and doesn't feel boring due to lack of variation and so on.

I see, thanks for the info. Maybe I'll try a polonaise with few technical difficulties, so I can develop these musical skills first. Meanwhile I'll be focusing on getting the notes in the Heroic!

[awesom_o]

Sometimes you can do the musical details very well but the big picture becomes bland.

Well said! Conveying musical structure is one of the most difficult aspects of interpretation.

It is easy to lose sight of the beauty of the forest by focusing too much on prettiness of the trees.

Mastery of form is one of the most difficult aspects of composition! Great repertoire requires great interpretation!

[justanamateur]

I'm working on the 12th polonaise (which has no opus number, and instead has a weird-looking catalogue number I don't know), which is very easy technically. Since I don't need to spend time on technical aspects, I'll focus on the interpretation, and I'll upload a recording once I'm satisfied with my own playing. I hope I can become familiar with the musical aspects of polonaise playing in doing so. Thanks everyone!

[justanamateur]

I've FINALLY managed to play the LH octaves with clarity, without tiring!

Really feel I've achieved something. The trills are still a big problem though.   

[eusebius12]

I agree that difficulty is a rather inartistic prism through which to evaluate great music. But I will say that the Polonaises are not Chopin's most technically demanding pieces. They are tricky, the heroic has some repeated octaves which take high skill (with octaves) to play in a manner that doesn't seem stiff and awkward. The Polonaise-Fantaisie is hardly a walk in the park, technically speaking. Certainly a work comparable in difficulty with some of the ballades.

[krzyzowski]

To love to play Chopin, one must study the Man, the culture of the period. Read his letters. Music from the era reflects the life and times of the individual composer; just as in R&B/ Jazz, it is easy to tell if the performer has lived the life. It is in the music..

[bernadette60614]

I feel this way about Mozart sonatas...and then I listened to Uchida.

I can play the notes, but Uchida plays in such a way that the listener is absorbed and transported by the music.