first (nail joint) collapsing

[Molson]

It is said that it is crucial not to let this happen.  For me, it doesn't seem to make a big difference.  How bout for you?

[ted]

Unless it happens all the time I wouldn't worry too much. Have a look at videos of Horowitz and others - they do that quite often.

Obviously, if you consciously do it all the time it won't give you as much power and control as playing in the usual way, but if it just happens spontaneously in awkward places then I can't see it matters much.

[rach17]

Like Ted said, if it just happens in one or two awkward places, it is not a huge deal.  But if you do it very often, and sometimes you do and sometimes you don't, you will lose some control.  And when you are trying to be loud, definately void collapsing because you lose power.  Generally, I think about issuses like this while I'm playing my technique, so the curve is naturally there and I do not have to think about it while I'm practicing my pieces.

[robert_henry]

Ted and Molson,

There is a big difference between playing flat-fingered (as Horowitz does) and allowing the first joint to collapse due to poor technique.  Horowitz certainly knew what he was doing, and every type of "tip-technique" (snicker) should be available in our tool-chests.  Yet as flat as he played, his hands always moved with purpose, with intent; he never let his fingers bend out of a controlled position, flat or curved.  Flat-fingered playing is an effect used for certain sounds.  The other is simply laziness.  

One cannot "grip", control the descent of the key, produce chords powerfully, or develop a palette of colors without proper first-joint technique.  As Russell Sherman eloquently states, "There can be no freedom without form."  In other words, there are no shortcuts in life.  Or another way of putting it, you can't break the rules until you know them.

There are always those who challenge convention, and I applaud those who do.  However, certain things are done in certain way because they work, and the questioning of the mainstays of basic piano playing is a waste of time.  Joint technique is (or should be) taught during the first month of one's piano study.  Then later, after a few years of work, we start to question why things are done the way they are.  It is healthy to question convention.  Question everything.  But, expect people like me to come along and provide quick and perhaps unpleasant answers.    Joint bending is simply something that one should not do.  It is akin to blowing a bubble with loose lips.   Try it - it can't be done.   Only by focusing your lips into a round, controlled "oooh" shape  :-*can one blow the bubble.  Floppy joints will produce unfocused sound.  (I never thought I would use smileys to assist with my presentation.)

Work hard Molson and your fingertips will become alive and active.  Only then can you begin to use them like brushes when called for.

Robert Henry

[amee]

My little finger used to do that sometimes a few years ago but eventually it just stopped.  I'm glad it did because I never felt quite in control when I was playing during that period.

[b3rel]

I have this problem a lot of the time I play. What can I do about it?

[amp]

I study at the college level, and I have finger excersices that focus on that that my professor wrote. You could play some scales slowly and concentrate on your fingers, make the first knuckle is not collasping. Spend time on it everyday, and eventually you will have the extra strength.

Try some Hanon excersises, but memorize them and "stare" at your fingers. This idea is great because your fingers "learn" what to do, so that you do not have to think about it much when you are practicing your actual pieces.

Robert Henry is right, it is poor technique and could be a sign of laziness if that happens all the time.

[willcowskitz]

This sounds uhhh scary. What is all this about, can somebody explain? I don't really have a teacher so I'm afraid I just screw up my hands or something.

[amp]

It's not a big deal, it will not ruin your hands. Just follow some of the advice and work on it. Do you notice your first finger joint collasping? If not don't worry about it. How come you don't study with a teacher? Having a teacher is invaluable.

[willcowskitz]

What is a finger joint? lol

[amee]

Dear Willcowskitz,

A finger joint is the first joint or knuckle on your finger.  When you play the piano, your hand should be roughly forming a ball shape. When your first joint collapses, half your finger goes straight and you don't have that rounded shape anymore.  This often shows up as slight uneveniness especially in fast passages, since the finger joint takes an extra millisecond to 'collapse'.  Did that just make sense to anyone except for me?  

[frederic]

This piano teacher said that my little finger's knuckle always collapse. she said if i continue doing it my little finger will be useless later on.

I don't quite believe that...

[willcowskitz]

I'm still confused. What does it mean when a knuckle "collapses"? The finger is no longer in curve shape? It twists to the wrong direction? I sometimes play slow parts without channeling any power to the finger's tip but rather pounding from the root with whole finger either as a straight hard stick or just loose like a uhhh sleeping snake?

[amp]

Will,
Simply, the finger does not have a curved shape. If you look at your finger, curve it like a hook. Now push the tip of the finger with your other hand so you finger is straight. Some fingers you can raise the tip of the finger higher making the front part of your finger look like a very shallow "U," and on some people it doesn't do that it's just straight out.

What you are talking about, not channeling the energy to your finger tips, is excatly the problem. If you keep your fingers straight with out some sort of curve (like holding the apple), or that joint collapses, then you will not be able to produce effective fortes, because the energy is not making it's way to the tips of the fingers that actually hit the keys. It's poor technique and could be a reason for one's fingers to hurt after practicing.

Was I clear enough? What you mentioned was pretty much it.

[amee]

One of the reasons a finger joint collapses is because the finger itself is not strong enough.

[trunks]

Apart from the bad, uncontrolled tone, touch and dynamics resulting from collapsed joints, there is the anatomical reason here.

The finger joints, like most other joints in the human skeleton, are designed for bending inwards. If you force an outward bend on these joints they will eventually yield and break - the only exceptions being the wrist joint and the heel joint.

If you let the finger joint 'collapse', that is in effect letting it bend outwards. Do that for a few seconds you won't notice anything. Keep pressing your finger on the key this way for more than a minute and you'll already be feeling the stress. Keep doing this every day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year . . . see how much damage that will have accumulated in that joint over 10 years of piano-playing.

The worst this here is that most people aren't even aware of this happening while they play or practise.

It is essential to develop strength and firm grip in the fingers through simple everyday exercises so that even your sub-conciousness will guide your fingers away from a collapsed joint.

The same applies to pressing buttons on an electric appliance or a lift or whatever that requires finger pressure - collapsed joint is always a no no!

[monk]

Hi Molson and all others,

if the last finger segment often collapses, you can almost be sure that the direction of your motion is disadvantageous.

In most cases, your finger has to go into the key FORWARD and DOWN, so that a - what's the correct English word? - oblique motion results.

Most beginners play just DOWN or even DOWN and BACKWARDS.

Try both kinds of touch (don't use "finger technique", but play from the whole arm), and you will notice that, while in the second approach collapsing is promoted, in the first it is simply impossible (if applied correctly, of course) !

Hope I explained it clearly enough :-)

Best Wishes,
Monk

[trunks]

Another point to bear in mind . . . while collapsing of the first finger joint (the one immediately adjacent to the nails) is a common bad practice, it is not uncommon to see some people play with collapsed knuckles (especially on chords) which is an equally bad practice.

[clarinetwife]

For me, weak first joints in my fingers almost seemed to be a physical, developmental problem.  My teacher and I worked on it for several years.  Finally, later in my high school years, suddenly my joint strength started to improve.  I even worked on it away from the piano, in front of the TV, for example.  I would curve each finger and press  the fingertip against the tip of the thumb of the same hand to strengthen that joint.  In the end, the real cure was time.

[xvimbi]

A lot of good things have been said already in this thread, so I won't reiterate. I do have to add one thing, though: lack of strength is often blamed for collapsed joints. I am not so sure about this. I think, more common is lack of attention. amp already recommended to stare at your problem finger. I'd add, talk to the finger! Make it do what your brain tells it to do. I believe it is this paying attention to these issues that is more than half of the solution. Only rarely does one have to really physically alter things.

[tds]

One of the reasons a finger joint collapses is because the finger itself is not strong enough.

i dont think it is much more about strength per se than it is knowing when and how much to resist. tds

[mikeyg]

The second joint in my pinky always locks up, does anyone know why this is?

[pianomann1984]

(don't use "finger technique", but play from the whole arm),

This sounds dangerous to me.  I also study at a conservatoire level and though I would agree that releasing arm weight is essential to the production of a good sound, playing with collapsed fingers is an entirely different matter that should be dealt with immediately.  I spent roughly the first 7 years of my piano career playing with collapsed fingers because my teacher at the time did not have the sense to tell me otherwise.  I came to Philip Fowke where I am now and the first thing that he said was that my finger strength needed immediate attention.  I am eternally grateful to him for the unparalleled improvement this made to my playing! For the assertion of good technique for someone who is not necessarily having lessons, I would advise "Pianoforte Technique on an hour a day" by Goeffry Tankard.  All of the excersises within it are precisely explained (there is even a week timetable in the front showing how you can cover all the excersises in a week!), and I did not come across one excersise that didn't have a noticable effect on a problem after less than a minute playing it.  Be careful though - overdoing it can have more catastrophic consequences than not doing them at all!

Give it a try - I will try to find ISBN nos/publishers etc, as I dont have my score with me at the moment.  Will get back as soon as I have them.  It really doesnt get any better for starting excersises than this!