Tackling Chopin's Fourth Ballade

[billyfisher100]

Hello everyone!

At the moment, I want to attempt Chopin's final F minor ballade. It has always been one of my favourites, ending with one of the most sublime codas! I have been wanting to attempt this for a long time and to prepare myself technically, I have learned Chopin's Etude Op. 10 No. 4 (to aid with speed and hand contractions/expansions), Op. 10 No. 9 (to aid with the left hand stretches and leaps) and Op. 25 No. 2 (to aid with stamina and right hand evenness and consistency of tempo) and the Op. 49 Fantasy in F minor. My sight reading, however, is comparatively quite slow and I think it will be a very long time before I can even begin to bring it up to tempo, particularly the coda. I have researched technique for the piece and came across this which I found rather handy:

https://pianoadvice.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/advice-on-chopins-ballade-no-4-op-52-in.html

I would be really grateful if you could give me some pointers:

Do you think I'm technically and musically ready to begin this ballade, or should I start with an easier one like the A-flat or practise some mazurkas or nocturnes to aid with the interpretation side of things?

Do you think it's worth stopping where I am (page 1!) and beginning with the coda so I don't get shellshocked by the technical challenges at the end?

More specifically, I can play the main theme, but, as was suggested on the link, it is very difficult with the LH chords in bars 8 - 10 to prevent the piece sounding waltz-like - I have tried to soften the chords in the left hand, but it hasn't really helped. I am playing as closely to Andante as I can - should I perhaps increase the tempo a little but stress and pause on the RH B♭ to prevent this?

I have on this theme also encountered that, in Bar 9, the RH E♮ and LH F seem to clash - am I sounding out the LH too much?

Thanks in advance!

[quantum]

You need to try out the piece in order to know if you are ready for it.  It's like looking at a pair of shoes and wondering if they will fit without putting them on your feet. 

Don't obsess over page 1 without sampling the rest of the piece.  Try out a few measures from various parts.  If you do decide to learn it, don't learn linearly from beginning to end.  Be goal oriented and start with the most difficult parts of the piece. 

I'd actually suggest working on your sight reading.  Do you play in ensembles, accompany singers or instrumentalists?  It's a great way to make music and improve your sight reading. 

[billyfisher100]

You need to try out the piece in order to know if you are ready for it.  It's like looking at a pair of shoes and wondering if they will fit without putting them on your feet. 

Don't obsess over page 1 without sampling the rest of the piece.  Try out a few measures from various parts.  If you do decide to learn it, don't learn linearly from beginning to end.  Be goal oriented and start with the most difficult parts of the piece. 

I'd actually suggest working on your sight reading.  Do you play in ensembles, accompany singers or instrumentalists?  It's a great way to make music and improve your sight reading. 

Thanks very much for your suggestions!

I think I'll stop with page 1 then and get stuck into the coda, which is inevitably going to be the toughest it's going to get.

The thing is, I don't want to play it badly, as I would be wasting my time and not doing Op. 52 any justice whatsoever. I found the Fantasy fairly difficult in places, but it was manageable and took me a little over 6 months to get it to a fairly good standard - I reckon that the Ballade will push me a lot more though.

No, I don't play in ensembles, only solo. That's a good idea - perhaps I should get involved as part of a Trio then the pressure will be on to improve my rate of progress!

[flashyfingers]

try the last few pages, before the coda.

[billyfisher100]

try the last few pages, before the coda.

Thanks! Do you think this will give me a better idea of suitability than just plunging straight into the coda or continuing from the beginning?

[flashyfingers]

Thanks! Do you think this will give me a better idea of suitability than just plunging straight into the coda or continuing from the beginning?

It's a very complex ballade. There are a lot of runs with thirds, 6ths, etc. Try the pages
(in this score) 307, 309, 310, 311, 312 to end. LOL, that's a lot of difficulty.

https://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usimg/9/91/IMSLP86695-PMLP01649-chopin-ballade_no_4.pdf

I used to play this ballade (and the other 3, too) god forbid I will ever have to relearn this one.

[symphonicdance]

This is a highly technically and musically demanding piece.  I think OP should take this slowly, progressively.  simply don't rush to really learn it.

Renowned pianists play this piece between 9 minutes and 12 minutes. The player should judge his own tempo, what he likes most, and yet neither too fast (with respect to his delivery) which he cannot clearly play all details nor too slow which he lets the audience lose interest.

How to play the first few line most beautifully?  Tis always a question.  Bolet suggested to play if as simple as it stated on score. 

Whilst rubato is very much expected throughout the piece, one should keep remember to keep the tempo stable (incl. those rest signs).

Pedaling is also tricky.  Many teachers suggest to use finger pedal instead.

Bach's 2-part voicing also makes it interesting.

I think you would also learn Chopin Etude in C minor Op 25 No 12 (if my memory serves me correctly).  A few bars in this ballade is very similar to that etude.

Too many things about this piece actually.

Good luck and have fun in your learning!  Great satisfaction once you can master.  (I am also exploring and re-exploring this piece from time to time... but unfortunately way to go to performance level.)

[pianoman1349]

I think there was another thread on this ballade, that you might find helpful.  I wrote this for that thread:

"I personally find this ballade easier to play, both musically and technically than the other ballades, as I can connect with the material much better (it also seems to be a lot less awkward than say the first ballade)

THe main difficulty of this ballade lies in the interpretation of the intro and the first presentation of the first subject.  In the intro, there has to be at least three distinct layers of tone colour and texture that are independently shaped, according to the hairpins marked in the score.  There can be a tendency to shape the intro as shorter phrases, without too much attention to the longer line.

The first theme (m8 - m38) can be difficult to play well, due to the repetition in the theme.  THere can be a tendency to have the music drag on endlessly, if the harmonic direction is not considered.  Remember that the ultimate destination of this section is not at m38, where the key change occurs, but at m57, where the cadence occurs.  Murray Perahia suggests that the material from m38 to m 44 is one big search to establish the b-flat centre that acts as the harmonic means to drive the music to the cadence in m57. 

Technically the next section is for me the hardest technical section in the work.  There has to be a sense of layers being added on as the phrase progresses ... driving the music forward to the end of the section, before another modulation occurs.  The hardest part of this section is the maintenance of the melody in the soprano voice, despite all of the figuration and movement in the lower voices.

From a sound/tone perspective, the climax of the ballade (variation on the second subject in d-flat) is very hard.  this is because, the sound has to literally soar and achieve a sonic high without any heaviness or harshness.  The imagery i use is an eagle flying across a great plains, from a low valley to the peak of a great mountain. 

THe coda is one of the more idiomatically written codas by chopin.  The trick to this coda is to treat each and every note as a melody, with the sustained notes taking over, where they exist.

BEst of luck"

[eusebius12]

The technically challenging bits are not that extensive, but to convey the grandeur and spirituality of the work, a good deal of experience is needed I feel. Perhaps listen to many great performances of it and try to telescope the Ballade's narrative structure in your mind. You could start with the Ab, which is a much easier piece...then the G Minor. But still I don't see the technical difficulties of the F Minor as in anyway insuperable for a really talented student...put it this way, it's much easier than the concerti. I find the etude 25/12 and even the d minor prelude trickier pieces from a purely technical POV.

[billyfisher100]

Thank you all for your helpful, supportive comments. Have got through the coda and the few pages before up to tempo - wasn't too bad although I struggled fingering the thirds during the coda - Paderewski had some very strange suggestions indeed, especially for the broken octaves! I made up my own fingering for the broken octaves in the RH:
(2,1),1,(4,2),(5,3),1,(4,2)
Seems quite strange, but works for me!

One of Chopin's deepest and most accomplished works and so rewarding to learn!