Chopin Waltz op 64 no 2

[hardy_practice]

There is a big, big difference between playing scales in similar motion and playing scales in formula pattern!  

It's hard to push yourself whether or not you are a concert pianist! As a musician, it is your responsibility to continually push yourself to new heights of excellence!  

I didn't think what Lola was doing was very difficult.  Playing in thirds, sixths and octaves whether parallel or contrary is not really much different.  It really seemed more like an attack on the piano in her case!  No, I've no interest in having the precision it gives you - to me, I hear that crispness as just a gimmick.  Do you know the sound I mean?  

[dima_76557]

I didn't think what Lola was doing was very difficult.  Playing in thirds, sixths and octaves whether parallel or contrary is not really much different.  It really seemed more like an attack on the piano in her case!  No, I've no interest in having the precision it gives you - to me, I hear that crispness as just a gimmick.  Do you know the sound I mean?  

Ok. Lola's clip was not ideal to explain the idea of what you should be doing. I already explained to you what she was doing there and why. Here are some other examples:

The goal is NOT speed, but the sound result (evenness in quality; whether that quality is "beautiful" or "aggressive" is not so much of an issue, because not all music is meant to be played "beautifully"). The student should listen, not only with his/her ears, but with the whole body because there's lots of proprioception involved in the learning process.

[nyiregyhazi]

I didn't think what Lola was doing was very difficult.  Playing in thirds, sixths and octaves whether parallel or contrary is not really much different.  It really seemed more like an attack on the piano in her case!  No, I've no interest in having the precision it gives you - to me, I hear that crispness as just a gimmick.  Do you know the sound I mean?  

Then don't expect control either. Have you listened to her play chopin e minor study? It's musically superb. Inverse snobbery is a great way to limit yourself. I heard a psychologist speaking of how the negative thoughts patterns with which some people look at others with money sets up something in their unconscious that stops them becoming successful. Although they yearn for it and hate due to jealousy, that hatred makes it all the harder to get hold of any. If you were to look at those who have achieved more than you with respect, rather than through an inferiority complex, you might find that you can learn to control your sound too.

It would be far easier for you to try to bring yourself up than more accomplished musicians down. Even if she were relatively empty headed rather than a fine musician, she'd still run rings around you artistically- because she has control over her sound. If you don't care about getting that, forget conveying any artistic vision. These days, even if I hear an empty headed note spinner, I no longer frown on their technique. I respect it, but ask myself what different way of using it I would wish to find.

[awesom_o]

I didn't think what Lola was doing was very difficult.  No, I've no interest in having the precision it gives you - to me, I hear that crispness as just a gimmick.  Do you know the sound I mean?  

I know the sound you mean.

The fact that SHE has no interest in quality of sound or legato and likes to just blast through the scales at 200 MPH in the same few easy keys should NOT stop YOU from striving towards more controlled playing.

Like I said, the Grand Scale in all keys, with the hands separated by an octave, and later a 3rd and a 6th, will be your best friend in improving the quality of your touch.

Like Dima said, speed is NOT the goal here. Refinement of sound, beauty of legato, and quality of pp should be what you are after! They are also superb for the development of hand independence. You should be able to do one hand legato, one hand portamento or staccato, one hand pp, one hand ff, etc, and so on and forth.  

[nyiregyhazi]

I know the sound you mean.

The fact that SHE has no interest in quality of sound or legato and likes to just blast through the scales at 200 MPH in the same few easy keys should NOT stop YOU from striving towards more controlled playing.

Like I said, the Grand Scale in all keys, with the hands separated by an octave, and later a 3rd and a 6th, will be your best friend in improving the quality of your touch.

Like Dima said, speed is NOT the goal here. Refinement of sound, beauty of legato, and quality of pp should be what you are after! They are also superb for the development of hand independence. You should be able to do one hand legato, one hand portamento or staccato, one hand pp, one hand ff, etc, and so on and forth.  

I can't personally agree that they are the means of improvement. I've always seen them as the test of the quality of more basic work. I don't personally practise at thirds or sixth apart much. I probably should merely for the sake of variety. But because I know my scales well, I've never had any problem demonstrating scales at a third or sixth apart to students. I can pass the test, because it's nothing more than a check that you know the basic movements inside out. When students struggle with these, I sometimes get them to pick two random scales and play both at once- to show that once your hands know the positions, you don't even need to have prepared the individual combination, in order to play them right first time. I'd recommend that exercise too. Take any two scales and play them at once to see how independently your hands can find totally different positions by feel.

People who think they know the scales often fail these tests because they don't know them as well as they think. A truly known scale should be totally clear both purely physically and purely mentally. But spending loads of time on the third or sixth apart is generally not the solution. The easiest fix is to become more self aware of the important featureswithin a separate hand and to do speed tests of very small chunks. After better preparation, chances are that you'll pass the test of a third and sixth apart.

It's like with marathon running. Once someone is ready they can run a marathon. But the training isn't generally based on trying to run a marathon and seeing if you make it or not. The marathon is the final test of your preparation, not the direct basis for meaningful improvement. More specifically to this case, there's little point in screwing up more complex scales when it's actually the barest foundations which need the attention. The testing comes later. It's the means of gauging whether success has been achieved, rather than the means of making progress.

[hardy_practice]

I know the sound you mean.

Do you hear it as a crispness only drilled fingers acquire?

[mjames]

Why do people on this forum always try to make it a dick measuring contest? Seriously. Hardy there is some really good advice(especially awesome a formula pattern idea), you should try them. Focus less on Lola and more on you. Dimas links are really good too, I'm going start using them too. lack of control is my problem...

[hardy_practice]

Sorry Dima, I wouldn't allow my students to play that badly.  Wrists swinging about like a dog's wagging tail?  Elbows going in and out?  We're not making omelettes!  I get the formula idea.

Shall I get my coat?

[dima_76557]

Shall I get my coat?

If you plan on coming to Moscow to see how they play that Grand Scale Pattern stuff here, you may need it, yes...

[awesom_o]

Do you hear it as a crispness only drilled fingers acquire?

I don't hear crispness. I hear rushing, unevenness, and poor articulation. 

[awesom_o]

I can't personally agree that.....

I think that the only thing ANYONE personally agrees with YOU on is that fact that you like to argue over semantics ad nauseam....   

  Don't you ever.... you know... practice?

[hardy_practice]

I don't hear crispness. I hear rushing, unevenness, and poor articulation. 

No, what I'm referring to is the crisp rhythm of drilled fingers not Lola in particular.  Do you recognise that sound when you hear it?

[nyiregyhazi]

I think that the only thing ANYONE personally agrees with YOU on is that fact that you like to argue over semantics ad nauseam....    

  Don't you ever.... you know... practice?

Of course. I'm currently learning kreisleriana. I do think it's an important distinction on scales though. I've worked with plenty of students on 3rd and a sixth apart scales and it's only by getting the fundamentals right first that they succeed. Those with dodgy fundamentals would not be likely to correct them via added complexity. It just shows them that they don't know the scales properly. The process of getting them sorted usually involves stripping complexity away and fixing the basics, before trying to add difficulty. It's more an evolutionary style eliminator than something that teaches the right way to get things working. When people aren't ready for the challenge, I don't think it will offer answers.

Im all for attempting such tests, but if the result is a fail I don't think the test itself is the way forward.

[hardy_practice]

I think I have the answer to the pui mosso.  My little exercise is certainly helpful but breaking up the 6 note figure to 2 + 4 sorts it out:



Not too much of an accent mind, just enough to marshal the little soldiers that come after.  I think humans can articulate groups of two, groups of three and groups of four, but that's it.

[roncesvalles]

I don't think you should make choices in the performance of music that are not based on musical reasoning.  What in the harmony of these measures makes it necessary to accent, even slightly, the third eighth note of each measure, especially when each measure is a miniature decrescendo?  Rather than impose arbitrary constraints on the music, why don't you listen to the recordings of great pianists playing this and take notes?

It is well within the human capacity to express 5, 6, and more notes.  Maybe you should practice phrasing more, as retrofitting everything to fit in 2, 3, and 4 note groupings can be musically limiting, akin to translating Dante's Inferno into haiku form.

[hardy_practice]

It is well within the human capacity to express 5, 6, and more notes.  Maybe you should practice phrasing more, as retrofitting everything to fit in 2, 3, and 4 note groupings can be musically limiting, akin to translating Dante's Inferno into haiku form.

Thanks for the input.  I'm afraid IMHO I've got to disagree we can play 5's and 6's and unfortunately have no evidence!  That constraint overrides your other considerations.  I'll do some research on that somehow.  And anyway, as Chopin said, as long as the timing is right no one notices the accents.

[swagmaster420x]

I think I have the answer to the pui mosso.  My little exercise is certainly helpful but breaking up the 6 note figure to 2 + 4 sorts it out:



Not too much of an accent mind, just enough to marshal the little soldiers that come after.  I think humans can articulate groups of two, groups of three and groups of four, but that's it.

You should practice this part more. It sounds weak and uneven.
Edit: I think scales/formula patterns will help a lot. It's embarrassing if you take piano seriously and think them too tedious to practice. If you have the mindset to compulsively fix your flaws and inconsistencies when you hear yourself play them, you will improve no matter what, if no, then nothing will help.
This would involve perceiving and admitting your faults. There's no need to go into details at this point; 'marshaling the little soldiers' or w/e you're trying to say is totally subordinate to playing legibly (which imo you haven't done yet).

[hardy_practice]

Thanks for taking the time to listen.  Yes it's weak but the answer isn't hours of scales/arps every day but a focused exercise.  I think I've found the exercise and, after my tech's been next week, will post the results. 

[swagmaster420x]

Thanks for taking the time to listen.  Yes it's weak but the answer isn't hours of scales/arps every day but a focused exercise.  I think I've found the exercise and, after my tech's been next week, will post the results. 

nice

[chopinlover01]

Sorry Dima, I wouldn't allow my students to play that badly.  Wrists swinging about like a dog's wagging tail?  Elbows going in and out?  We're not making omelettes!  I get the formula idea.

Shall I get my coat?

Hang on, EVERYONE, just one measly minute.
You teach students and play with such awful technique yourself?
I'm sorry to be rude, but I don't feel inclined to be particularly nice after you've made an ass out of yourself. You're telling people to give you something practical and then dismissing everything they say, but the worst part is that you then look down on them, as if they did something wrong. All we're doing is trying to help you. All you're doing is being rude.
So really, I fear for your students...

[chopinlover01]

And anyway, as Chopin said, as long as the timing is right no one notices the accents.

Where on earth did you find that quote? That sounds an awful lot like something faulty_damper would pull out of his ass- I mean, his hat and present to us all. Because we all know what astounding technique our friend faulty has.
You know, the more I think about it, the more it sounds like he's an alter ego of faulty...

[hardy_practice]

Sheesh, someone sure got out of the wrong side of the bed today!

Where on earth did you find that quote?

The exact quote from Chopin's own Projet de Method is '...No one will notice the inequality of sound in a very fast scale, as long as the notes are played in equal time, the goal is not to learn to play everything with an equal sound...'

And to be honest, if you can't hear how poorly those kiddies are playing in Dima's links then you're not one to be commenting yourself.

[nyiregyhazi]

Sheesh, someone sure got out of the wrong side of the bed today!
The exact quote from Chopin's own Projet de Method is '...No one will notice the inequality of sound in a very fast scale, as long as the notes are played in equal time, the goal is not to learn to play everything with an equal sound...'

And to be honest, if you can't hear how poorly those kiddies are playing in Dima's links then you're not one to be commenting yourself.

Indeed. Let's hope they learn to play fast enough soon, that nobody will notice. Or maybe they should actually care about controlling their sound first-so they don't end up like you? If you think nobody hears your lack of musical control, you're only deceiving yourself.

Also, if nobody can hear accents anyway, why are you always complaining that nobody does them in op. 10 no 1? Ifyou think using a quote from chopin (that never used the word accent) can change reality, you're having a laugh.

[chopinlover01]

The exact quote from Chopin's own Projet de Method is '...No one will notice the inequality of sound in a very fast scale, as long as the notes are played in equal time, the goal is not to learn to play everything with an equal sound...'

And to be honest, if you can't hear how poorly those kiddies are playing in Dima's links then you're not one to be commenting yourself.

I doubt that Chopin would've actually condoned not caring about your sound in a piece like this. In the large scales in say, the Heroique polonaise, that would (somewhat) apply. But playing fast enough so nobody will notice is just hiding technical deficiencies.
Further more, those fast runs in the piu mosso section need to be tonally sound, otherwise it just sounds like a big mess. Sure, you're timing is good, but the notes themselves will just sound horrid.

Yes, I saw how they were playing, and that was quite better than the mess that was your video. As far as the rudeness goes, I'll put it simply. I'm not nice to people who aren't nice to others, or who have their ego so inflated that when someone tries to give them help, they dismiss it as "impractical". Case in point, yourself. Calling a grade one pianist thinking of quitting the worst pianist they've ever heard is simply indefensible. And although you may think I'm doing the same, here's the difference. This pianist doesn't have a clue what he's doing, but thinks he knows everything about the piece, then comes to us for an exercise. Then, he finds his own for himself (a good thing I guess, but our time was wasted) and says he'll "wait for the exercise to take effect". You realize you have to make it take effect, don't you?

[hardy_practice]

In the large scales in say, the Heroique polonaise, that would (somewhat) apply. But playing fast enough so nobody will notice is just hiding technical deficiencies.

I think you miss the profundity of Chopin's statement.  It's not 'so nobody will notice' it's that timing is everything!  As Leopold Mozart also understood.

Calling a grade one pianist thinking of quitting the worst pianist they've ever heard is simply indefensible.

Play Tonto to N's Lone Ranger if you so wish but I don't think posting with some bee in your bonnet is going to be helpful to anyone.

To be fair to my advisors I spent some time on formula scales (C#M and even some C#m!) but really hours of daily scales and arps are just not me.  I'm convinced articulating a difficulty then targeting it with an appropriate exercise is the way.  That no one came forth with an exercise but me is beside the point.  

[awesom_o]

To be fair to my advisors I spent some time on formula scales (C#M and even some C#m!) but really hours of daily scales and arps are just not me.

About 15 minutes a day should be just enough time to go through the minor keys. Hardly the same as 'hours'.   You might find it would have a beneficial effect upon your musicianship! 

[nyiregyhazi]

I think you miss the profundity of Chopin's statement.  It's not 'so nobody will notice' it's that timing is everything!  As Leopold Mozart also understood.
Play Tonto to N's Lone Ranger if you so wish but I don't think posting with some bee in your bonnet is going to be helpful to anyone.

To be fair to my advisors I spent some time on formula scales (C#M and even some C#m!) but really hours of daily scales and arps are just not me.  I'm convinced articulating a difficulty then targeting it with an appropriate exercise is the way.  That no one came forth with an exercise but me is beside the point.  

There are countless exercises that I could list but not one would assist for these two reasons:

1. Your primary pianistic mindset is at odds with the possibility of success- because you would sooner stick with your delusions of expertise than make a humble attempt to try the things that you lack. You have no ability nor inclination to attempt to make a stable and lasting connection between finger and key, or by extension between arm and key. Without achieving a simple join, that stabilises both hand and arm without excess effort, there is nothing that will allow you significant progress. Without it, movements are inherently chaotic and unpredictable and depend on tensions which lower sensitivity. Low effort comfort and stability on every finger is the very first step of gaining meaningful control over your sound and rhythm. If you are not interested in achieving it, you will always resort to tension when you push your limits and this will always rob you of the slightest possibility of being in charge of your sound.

2. Either you simply don't listen well in the first place, or you have grown too accustomed to using apologist excuses for all of the tonal deficiencies that you hear to accept and deal with them at source. Without having the ability to listen to yourself and ensure that EVERY single motion that produces anything other than the intended sound will be fixed, you will never be in command of your sound at a fast tempo either. A pianist who is not willing/able to observe the discrepancies between intention and execution in slow practise is not a pianist who will ever improve to a notable degree. The first stage of improvement is to accept deficiencies and be willing to deal with them- which is why delusions of infallibility tend to result in such minimal progress. Excuses don't generate improvement. Self-critical thinking does.

If you're willing to change the above, there are hundreds of different exercises that could help you. In fact, just about any exercise that anyone could list would help in some way, when done with a suitable attitude. However, you're not willing, which is why there is not an exercise in the world that will raise your execution to the barest standard of competence.

[nyiregyhazi]

Listen to how Cherkassky describes and executes his practise

=50s

You can drop the sanctimonious bullshinola about how you're too "musical" to play evenly. Note the clarity and simplicity with which he checks for a stable connection on every single key, without either droop or tension. The day you can play to the level of even a very mediocre artist is the day that you can decide that you're too musical to use a method that did nothing to damage an artist of Cherkassky's calibre. Cherkassky worked at control for it's own sake- because an artist with musical vision simply CANNOT be hindered by work at precise control, as long as they already have musical vision. Start by practising basic control of your sound (in a situation where you can't hide behind empty excuses that you didn't want evenness anyway) like Cherkassky did, and perhaps some day you'll actually be in position to be in command of musical shapes too (ie. ones that you actually meant, rather than random assortments of accents and notes that fail to even sound).

The only exercise you need is the most basic level of care and attention in a slow tempo.

[hardy_practice]

I'll say it for the third time - don't call me a troll then carry on posting!

[hardy_practice]

About 15 minutes a day should be just enough time to go through the minor keys. Hardly the same as 'hours'.   You might find it would have a beneficial effect upon your musicianship! 

Your technique regime doesn't take hours?  15 minutes?  I'll give it a go.

[dima_76557]

That no one came forth with an exercise but me is beside the point.  

In this case, I believe that no other exercise but Chopin's actual piu mosso passage will do the trick, that's why I didn't suggest any. I told you the principle: do not prepare the whole range of notes in one passage in one block because your thumb will hamper the flexibility of your fingers if you don't have really big hands. It's simple arm leading note for note and listening to the sound of music. In terms of a "technical" exercise, you could consider making moderately fast trills (MM 88-120, 4 to the beat) between the fingers used in the passages, using the very notes in those passages.

But the main problems in your clip are:
1) the illusion that the piu mosso part should sound "fast", even at the cost of evenness and simplicity;
2) that the left hand does not get the attention it deserves in terms of musical line and tone; this goes for the whole piece, not only the piu mosso.

Listen, for example, to what Rubinstein does with this waltz in terms of voicing, phrasing and shaping (there is also a view of his playing from above, starting from 2:04):

[nyiregyhazi]

I'll say it for the third time - don't call me a troll then carry on posting!

I suggest you look up the definition of trolling. It doesn't encompass on topic posting. However, it certainly does include deliberate attempts to annoy people- such as asking for advice in a mock sincere tone and then casually dismissing all the good advice you are given, in favour of one accent. Or suggesting than on topic posts counts as trolling, when you know you full well that it does not.

[awesom_o]

Your technique regime doesn't take hours?  15 minutes?  I'll give it a go.

I often practice scales for about an hour each day, but divided by three instruments, that's only about 15-20 minutes on each instrument. I believe it is good to work on the formula patterns in all keys every day.

[hardy_practice]

Dima, this is the one you want:

Notice what he does from the E to D#.  That's what Chopin wanted.

[swagmaster420x]

Dima, this is the one you want:

Notice what he does from the E to D#.  That's what Chopin wanted.

After listening to that and some other recordings I've realized this piece irritates me a lot. The rubato that's used without fail in each is just obnoxious.

[hardy_practice]

Aw shucks - you shouldn't say that of M. Cortot or even Mr Rubinstein for that matter!