Chopin Waltz op 64 no 2

[hardy_practice]

Recorded on my Samsung tablet.  I was surprised it caught the dynamics.  Whose got an exercise for me to improve the piu mosso?  Thanks folks.  Oh...,  the piano only cost £100 - the original perfidious traitor!

[nyiregyhazi]

Recorded on my Samsung tablet.  I was surprised it caught the dynamics.  Whose got an exercise for me to improve the piu mosso?  Thanks folks.  Oh...,  the piano only cost £100 - the original perfidious traitor!

Scratch and flop. Anything else is clearly pseudoscience. There's nothing you need to know other than what grindea taught you- which is why it already flows so smoothly and effortlessly and without a trace of physical tension anywhere.

[hardy_practice]

Scratch and flop. Anything else is clearly pseudoscience. There's nothing you need to know other than what grindea taught you- which is why it already flows so smoothly and effortlessly and without a trace of physical tension anywhere.

..and an exercise from his lordship?

[nyiregyhazi]

..and an exercise from his lordship?

I'm afraid there are too many problems for a simple exercise to solve. Your fingers are immobile and your arm is stiff and disconnected. I could say all of the obvious stuff about actually moving the fingers and checking that the arm hangs freely behind a connected finger after each sound in slow speeds (without arm pressure or tension)- but the Waltz isn't the place to work at this.

Start by connecting finger and arm properly in a c major scale without drooping the knuckles or pressing from the arm. On each finger tap or gently push on the knuckle to check stability while moving the wrist up and down by a few mm to check it isn't locked. Your video is possibly as good an example as there could be of how making relaxation the primary goal actually causes tension in anything of difficulty, if the hand hasn't learned how to connect. You need to go back to basics and make lasting connections between active fingers and keys. Your hand is not finding security because you've spent so much time flopping into disconnection. You can't play fast without connecting up first.

[hardy_practice]

Thanks,  I'll wait for something more practical.

[nyiregyhazi]

Thanks,  I'll wait for something more practical.

If you're hoping for something that sidesteps the fact that shoving a floppy hand down against the keys can only force that hand to stiffen, don't expect miracles. There is no avenue of improvement to you until you appreciate that in anything slightly demanding, unfocused relaxation is just tension by proxy. A stable hand (that is stable due to clear contact with a grounded key and length in the arm - rather than by the stiffness you currently depend on) is the only thing that can allow meaningful progress.

[hardy_practice]

leave it aht. 

[nyiregyhazi]

There's a simple rule in pianism that an unstable hand plus speed equals stiffness. So either consign yourself to only playing slow things where you can get away with instability. Or start teaching yourself how to couple a stable hand with a free wrist in slow speeds, in order to prepare a proper foundation for the waltz. The problem with your favoured flop is that it only teaches the free wrist and actively disconnects the hand. That's why you need to use more subtle movements to check for wrist freedoms rather than the coarse flop. Only coupling the loose wrist with connection in the hand offers anything of use in fast runs.

If anyone wants to offer some magic beans then good luck. But there's no sidestepping the most basic fundamental of pianism- the sustainable connection between hand and arm.

[hardy_practice]

Magic beans or no, I'm sure by the end of the week the piu mosso will be there.  I would like suggestions though.

[dima_76557]

@ hardy_practice

Watch your thumb. From here, it seems like you are trying to do position playing with the thumb included. I think that you should NOT do that. Keep the thumb closer to your hand while playing the figuration with the outer fingers and check that it is free, not sticking up in any way. You have plenty of time to touch the thumb note with a controlled portato touch. Sing the passage and imagine that all the notes are connected by glissando's as it were. "Weigh" the keys (each key twice with as soft a tone as possible) so you feel their resistance because you haven't found contact yet with this instrument. Good luck!
P.S.: Is the instrument technically OK? All keys leveled?

[hardy_practice]

Hey, thanks.  I'll check that out.  The thumb is interesting.  I only noticed today it's not as sensitive because it's sideways and so has far less tension in many instances.  Here, I can't feel it anything like the fingers - especially at the end of the run up at the end of the piu mosso.

[nyiregyhazi]

Magic beans or no, I'm sure by the end of the week the piu mosso will be there.  I would like suggestions though.

Well, by all means upload another effort. But you need an outright overhaul if you're expecting to remove all the tensions, rhythmic imprecision and random accents/absent notes. I can't see any of that changing before you learn how to make your hand stable after each key depression, without tension- so as to ready each finger to interact sensitively and precisely with the keys.

[hardy_practice]

Well, by all means upload another effort. But you need an outright overhaul if you're expecting to remove all the tensions, rhythmic imprecision and random accents/absent notes. I can't see any of that changing before you learn how to make your hand stable after each key depression, without tension- so as to ready each finger to interact sensitively and precisely with the keys.

All in your mind mate.  Problem is, you're not capable of hearing music are you? You just trot out the same old tropes.

[nyiregyhazi]

All in your mind mate.  Problem is, you're not capable of hearing music are you? You just trot out the same old tropes.

Not when it's butchered, no. I listen to a relatively small number of artists who both control their sound and have interesting musical ideas to convey. I wouldn't be so harsh if you had not been so disgustingly rude to other posters about their standard on so many occasions. I recall you saying that the performance of a grade 1 student was some of the worst playing you ever heard. Let me you tell you that this is without doubt the worst playing I have ever heard from anyone who tries to portray expertise on technique. I'd assume a practical joke, if I didn't know otherwise. It's the kind of playing I'd expect from an enthusiastic self learner who has been playing for a couple of years with plenty of enthusiasm, but inadequate knowledge about technique. As a professional teacher with years of experience you should be deeply ashamed to put that out.

 Attack my taste if you like but the true standard of your playing is here for anyone to see. Suggesting that anyone who cannot find music in such a mess cannot appreciate music in general is only going to add to the embarrassment factor. Music begins when you have some basic degree of control over your instrument.

[hardy_practice]

 

[cbreemer]

Enough people here already bashing on about the physiological and technical issues. I'd say the totally erratic rhythms and tempi are a far greater problem. Not sure if that is meant to be rubato, but I believe one must first be able to play in strict time before applying tempo freedom. Too
many beginning pianists just don't seem to want to bother with strict and precise playing. This
has nothing at all to do with technique but more so with one's mind set.

[nyiregyhazi]

Enough people here already bashing on about the physiological and technical issues. I'd say the totally erratic rhythms and tempi are a far greater problem. Not sure if that is meant to be rubato, but I believe one must first be able to play in strict time before applying tempo freedom. Too
many beginning pianists just don't seem to want to bother with strict and precise playing. This
has nothing at all to do with technique but more so with one's mind set.

I agree that the rhythm needs phenomenal attention- but not that it's nothing to do with technique. Faulty technique inevitably interferes with rhythm. After getting something wrong enough times, it can even spill over into the intention- at which point it blurs the boundaries between what is down to faulty conception and what was down to faulty execution. The two are no longer distinguishable. It's as true that faulty technique causes faulty rhythm as that faulty rhythm causes faulty technique.

Also, I wouldn't agree on strict time as being a necessary starter. A sense of very continuous musical flow is the first thing to get. Sometimes it's better for that to contain freedoms but to preserve a sense of flow, than to base it on literalism. Trying to squeeze in the weird grouping of notes in strict time is actively the problem in the lyrical section- which is why it is so messy and frantic. Such rhythms cry out for the freedom to let every note speak within a smooth and continuous flow- without trying to force your way pedantically into the next beat. It's often far better to start with a yardstick of flow and continuity than of pushing literal rigid metre, when your technique is not up to it. In many passages, the sloppiness is actually caused by pushing for literalism, over lyrical freedom of rubato. Knowing where to inject a little space is often the best weapon by which to learn to preserve a long ongoing flow- whereas trying to be literal is often something that actively causes emergency stumbles and breaks to the flow.

[hardy_practice]

Shucks!  Reminds me of my next door neighbour - she doesn't like music either!

[nyiregyhazi]

Shucks!  Reminds me of my next door neighbour - she doesn't like music either!

Funny, that. I doubt whether Les Dawson's neighbour liked "music" either.

[hardy_practice]

For your own good take a hard look at yourself and see if you don't enjoy humiliating people.

[pianoplayer002]

It looks like your arm is stiff. Try playing the passage in half tempo with the right hand alone, and while playing gently grab your right forearm with your left hand and see if you can move it around while playing (the left hand moves the right arm). If you encounter resistance in any direction (up, down etc) you are tense. The arm needs to be completely loose while playing.

[hardy_practice]

Thanks for the suggestion - the arm is fine hanging by my side.  I'm waiting for the results of my new exercise to take effect, which I figure will sort the pui mosso.

[nyiregyhazi]

For your own good take a hard look at yourself and see if you don't enjoy humiliating people.

I enjoy seeing people who wish to humiliate others without provocation humiliating themselves. After such rude comments from you to so many other posters, it did give me an excellent laugh to see someone with delusions of expertise struggling quite so badly. The sad thing is that you could improve, were you humble enough to try adjusting your approach. But your delusions of expertise are more important to you than being humble enough to try the things that might help you- so you continue to sink with your ship.

I have no idea what you think that exercise will achieve. Start with proper legato and proper tonal control in something simple. You're wasting your time if you think that doing anything without control over sound (and without the meaningful connection between hand and arm) will change anything. Open your ears and listen to how uneven the results are. How is such erratic sound going to be of any musical use? And the problem with piano playing is that your arm doesn't get to hang by your side. It needs a proper connection from the hand in order to be free.

[hardy_practice]

I enjoy seeing people who wish to humiliate others without provocation humiliating themselves.

Why would anyone enjoying seeing someone humiliated?  That's sadist, and sad.

[awesom_o]

Personally, I have no wish to humiliate anyone. 

I cannot say that there isn't a single grain of truth in anything that N has posted so far in this thread, but overall, what cbreemer said was more succinct and to-the-point.

Tonal control and rhythmic control go hand-in-hand.

I believe that thorough study of the Grand Scale (a.k.a. the formula pattern) in major and minor, with the hands separated at first by an octave, and later on by a third and sixth, will be the only 'exercise' that our good friend hardy_practice needs in order to discover substantial improvement in his playing.

[hardy_practice]

Thanks - you're quite right.  I'm not sure I can take the tedium of going back to grade 8!  But if my exercise doesn't work then yes, I suppose it's tedium or nothing.

edit: I keep on saying my exercise, it's actually Brahms'.

[nyiregyhazi]

Why would anyone enjoying seeing someone humiliated?  That's sadist, and sad.

Because you told a grade 1 pianist who said he was thinking of quitting that his playing was the worst you've ever heard. If you think you deserve to be treated like a human being, start by showing repentance for such disgusting actions. A person who thinks they are an expert must be judged by the standards they puport to set.

[dima_76557]

Thanks - you're quite right.  I'm not sure I can take the tedium of going back to grade 8!  But if my exercise doesn't work then yes, I suppose it's tedium or nothing.

I don't understand this phrase about "going back" and "tedium".
How does this grade system work actually? What grade is the Chopin on? Why are scales "tedium"? Confused...

[hardy_practice]

Because you told a grade 1 pianist who said he was thinking of quitting that his playing was the worst you've ever heard. If you think you deserve to be treated like a human being, start by showing repentance for such disgusting actions. A person who thinks they are an expert must be judged by the standards they puport to set.

Oooh, ark at the avenging angel!  But the point is you enjoy others' humiliation.  That's kinda not even civilized.

[hardy_practice]

I don't understand this phrase about "going back" and "tedium".
How does this grade system work actually? What grade is the Chopin on? Why are scales "tedium"? Confused...

Grade 8 is the top ABRSM grade.  You can google the syllabus but the scales are very involved.  I got a merit many years ago (cause my scales were so bad!).

[nyiregyhazi]

Oooh, ark at the avenging angel!  But the point is you enjoy others' humiliation.  That's kinda not even civilized.

Judge all you like. I don't make scathing unprovoked attacks on soft targets. You have regularly done so and I couldn't greatly care what you think about my amusement at the fact that you're in quite such an unworthy position to judge. You deserve to be humiliated for your prior behaviour and unrepentant attitude. Having posted the video of your standard, you don't even need anyone to do it for you.

[hardy_practice]

You deserve to be humiliated for your prior behaviour and unrepentant attitude.

But that doesn't justify sadism does it?

[nyiregyhazi]

But that doesn't justify sadism does it?

So tell us- what was your motivation behind telling a grade 1 pianist who had said he was thinking of quitting that his playing was the worst you've ever heard? There's a difference between sadism and enjoying poetic justice against a weak bully who looks for the softest targets available. You think it's okay for you to give it, but you can't take it.

[hardy_practice]

You don't get it do you?  Sadism can't be justified - we, civilized we that is, just don't do it.

[nyiregyhazi]

You don't get it do you?  Sadism can't be justified - we, civilized we that is, just don't do it.

Troll away, buddy. I'm not going to debate morality with the kind of pathetic individual who thinks it's okay to tell a grade 1 player that their playing is the worst he ever heard, but that its not okay for anyone to judge his own shocking efforts by basic standards of accomplishment.

[hardy_practice]

...and it's exactly that same sadist attitude that ruins forums like this one.  Yes, we're all in it for kicks of one kind or another, but descending to some feral level just isn't on.

[nyiregyhazi]

...and it's exactly that same sadist attitude that ruins forums like this one.  Yes, we're all in it for kicks of one kind or another, but descending to some feral level just isn't on.

Don't even bother trying to bait me. You're simply trolling and you're not fooling anyone by pretending to be oblivious to the hypocrisy.

I'll simply repeat once again that you told a grade 1 one pianist that his playing was the worst you ever heard, without provocation. If you think it's funny to follow up on that with sanctimonious shinola about how nobody has a right to judge your own low standards of accomplishment, troll away.

[dima_76557]

May I, gentlemen?

Grade 8 is the top ABRSM grade.  You can google the syllabus but the scales are very involved.

Ah, like Lola Astanova shows here probably?

&t=3m7s

I think that is much, much too complicated for your purposes right now, even if you do them slowly. I would advise Liszt's preparatory 2-finger slurs for scales (the idea comes from Hummel, by the way) from his Technical Exercises for all finger combinations, hands separately, especially in the tonalities you actually need in the Chopin. This is as elementary as technical exercises can get, but it was Liszt's personal favorite. https://www.musicandhealth.co.uk/articles/slurs.html

[hardy_practice]

Don't even bother trying to bait me. You're simply trolling and you're not fooling anyone by pretending to be oblivious to the hypocrisy.

Listen, don't call me a troll and then keep posting.  That not how house-trained members behave.

[hardy_practice]

May I, gentlemen?

Ah, like Lola Astanova shows here probably?

&t=3m7s

I think that is much, much too complicated for your purposes right now, even if you do them slowly. I would advise Liszt's preparatory 2-finger slurs for scales (the idea comes from Hummel, by the way) from his Technical Exercises for all finger combinations, hands separately, especially in the tonalities you actually need in the Chopin. This is as elementary as technical exercises can get, but it was Liszt's personal favorite. https://www.musicandhealth.co.uk/articles/slurs.html

Thanks, checking them out.

edit: Dima, do you find what Lola's doing at all musical?  Yes, it's what I had to do a few decades ago but is it life-as-we-know-it?  I've got Hummel, I'll check him out.

[dima_76557]

edit: Dima, do you find what Lola's doing at all musical?

She's showing those scales as a warm-up/workout to her fans (some of whom - judging from the comments - are more interested in how she looks at the piano), so she's not striving especially to do anything musical.

Yes, it's what I had to do a few decades ago but is it life-as-we-know-it?

I don't know how you know life, so I can't tell.

I've got Hummel, I'll check him out.

I think you'll benefit more from the link I gave you to musicandhealth.
Liszt's (and I expect Hummel's) system is simply two-note slurs through all scales with all natural finger pairs. Nothing you can't do without notes.

[hardy_practice]

I think you'll benefit more from the link I gave you to musicandhealth.
Liszt's (and I expect Hummel's) system is simply two-note slurs through all scales with all natural finger pairs. Nothing you can't do without notes.

You sure that's not William Mason's slurs?

[dima_76557]

You sure that's not William Mason's slurs?

Positive. The idea as a technical exercise comes from Hummel, with whom Liszt himself wanted to study. His father sent him to Czerny instead because the latter's lessons were far cheaper. Anyway: I don't see how that could influence the value of this exercise. Liszt himself thought that this was probably the only technical exercise anyone would ever need. You can check that. There are sources online to confirm it.

[awesom_o]

Thanks - you're quite right.  I'm not sure I can take the tedium of going back to grade 8!  

I cannot IMAGINE any grade 8 pupil being able to play melodic minor formula patterns in in ALL keys, with the hands separated by a 6th!

Scale practice isn't tedious. It's fun! I practice scales every day on 3 instruments, and love doing so!

Scales and Bach for me are an every day ritual!

Try it! You'll really improve!

[hardy_practice]

Positive. The idea as a technical exercise comes from Hummel, with whom Liszt himself wanted to study. His father sent him to Czerny instead because the latter's lessons were far cheaper. Anyway: I don't see how that could influence the value of this exercise. Liszt himself thought that this was probably the only technical exercise anyone would ever need. You can check that. There are sources online to confirm it.

You mean this: https://imslp.org/wiki/Touch_and_Technic,_Op.44_%28Mason,_William%29

He got them from Liszt who said on concert days he could easily spend hours on them.  He did, by the way, have a better tone than Liszt!

[hardy_practice]

I cannot IMAGINE any grade 8 pupil being able to play melodic minor formula patterns in in ALL keys, with the hands separated by a 6th!

SCALES AND ARPEGGIOS * : from memory, in the following keys:
C, D, B, F # , F, E b majors and minors
A b major and G # minor, D b major and C # minor
Scales: legato or staccato, as directed by the examiner:
(i) in similar motion with hands together one octave apart, and with each hand separately, in the above keys
(minors in both melodic and harmonic forms) (four octaves)
(ii) in similar motion with hands together a third apart, and a sixth apart, in the above keys (minors in
harmonic form only) (four octaves)
(iii) legato only, in thirds with each hand separately in the keys of C and B b majors (two octaves)
Chromatic Scales: legato or staccato, as directed by the examiner:
(i) in similar motion with hands together a minor third apart, beginning on any notes named by the examiner
(four octaves)
(ii) legato only, with each hand separately, in minor thirds beginning on A # /C # (two octaves)
Arpeggios: legato only, in similar motion with hands together one octave apart, and with each hand separately:
(i) the common chords, in root position, first and second inversions, of the above keys (four octaves)
(ii) dominant seventh chords, in root position only, in the above keys (four octaves)
(iii) diminished seventh chords beginning on any note named by the examiner (four octaves)

Correct, minors in 6ths are harmonic.  Melodic would at least sound musical!
It was the 'from memory' bit that got me in hot water.  And, as I said, you're right the improvement will be amazing but...  How long you spend on scales etc. per day?  If one is not a concert pianist I think it'd be hard to push yourself.   

[awesom_o]

There is a big, big difference between playing scales in similar motion and playing scales in formula pattern! 

It's hard to push yourself whether or not you are a concert pianist! As a musician, it is your responsibility to continually push yourself to new heights of excellence! 

[nyiregyhazi]

Correct, minors in 6ths are harmonic.  Melodic would at least sound musical!
It was the 'from memory' bit that got me in hot water.  And, as I said, you're right the improvement will be amazing but...  How long you spend on scales etc. per day?  If one is not a concert pianist I think it'd be hard to push yourself.   

After all this incessant talk about mental practise, you're saying that you have a problem playing a scale from memory? How do you teach? You have to consult a score before you can tell the student what fingering to use? If you can't even visualise how a scale works, how you can hope to play it properly? From memory is really the only way to practise scales. If you don't understand the construction well enough to visualise it in full, there's next to no value in playing a note of it. If you can't get mental practise to work in straightforward scales, I can't imagine what you'd hope to get from it in anything of complexity. The way to learn scales is not drilling. It's clarity of mental conception. Scales are for understanding, not for reading note by note.

[awesom_o]

How long you spend on scales etc. per day? 

I don't time my practice, on scales or anything else. I make sure to practice the formula patterns on piano in all keys in melodic minor, in 3rds and in 6ths, with my eyes closed. If I make an error on a given key, I'll spend a few minutes going over that particular key until I am satisfied. I usually spend about twenty minutes on this.

On my other instruments, I typically do not practice scales in all keys, choosing instead to refine several particular scales at a time. Maybe twenty minutes for each instrument. On recorder I like to practice the chromatic scale the most, as it is the most challenging.

[hardy_practice]

After all this incessant talk about mental practise,

As I said, don't call me a troll and then carry on posting.