help with double notes

[lorcar]

I am not (yet) talking about double thirds/sixths scales. But simply depressing two notes together in Bach little preludes (BWV 941 at the moment) or Grieg (GJENDINES LULLABY, OP. 66, NO. 19).
I simply cant get a clean sound. It's always not synchronous. THe sound i get is "dirty".

Tricks? suggestions? exercises? how do you approach this problem?
thanks in advance

[timothy42b]

So you'd like to play both notes exactly simultaneously, but you can hear that one is ahead of the other?

Great!  It takes some people forever to hear that they do that.  That's the necessary first step to fix it, and some people never get that far.

[lelle]

Practise playing two notes together slowly, with extreme mental focus on bringing those fingers down exactly together, while keeping the arm and hand supple. If you do that 30 times I'll eat my hat if you don't get better at it.

[dima_76557]

I am not (yet) talking about double thirds/sixths scales. But simply depressing two notes together in Bach little preludes (BWV 941 at the moment) or Grieg (GJENDINES LULLABY, OP. 66, NO. 19).
I simply cant get a clean sound. It's always not synchronous. THe sound i get is "dirty".

Tricks? suggestions? exercises? how do you approach this problem?
thanks in advance

I want to suggest a preliminary exercise first, away from the instrument.

Clasp your hands, interlocking the fingers. It doesn't matter which thumb is up, left or right. Can you move the combination of fingers you need? Can you do that with eyes closed? Can you do other combinations? Can you do it for the other hand? This finger-thought-finger connection (a strictly neurological problem) should be quite well-developed before it makes sense to start applying it in double-note technique at the instrument.

[timothy42b]

I would also suggest deliberately playing the double notes at two different times, and slowly making them closer together.  Do it both ways.  That's how I worked on this problem, but I have no idea if that was a good idea or not.

[quantum]

I would also suggest deliberately playing the double notes at two different times, and slowly making them closer together.  Do it both ways.  

I think this is a good idea.  You will not always need to be playing double notes at exactly the same time, and this will help develop a sense of gradient timed space between the two notes.  Similar to refinement in motor skill required in on/off pedaling vs. fractional pedaling.  


Another idea is to start with two keys fully depressed, and slowly lift the fingers off the keys in a controlled manner such that they do so at the same time.  

Yet another approach is to start with your hand hovering above the keys in playing position without physical contact.  Work on placing your intended two fingers on the keys at the same time, no need to play the notes, just work on achieving physical contact at the same time.  


Don't get too hung up on playing notes exactly at the same moment.  Once you have developed the ability, you will need to unlearn it to some degree in order to work on sound and tone.  

[louispodesta]

I am not (yet) talking about double thirds/sixths scales. But simply depressing two notes together in Bach little preludes (BWV 941 at the moment) or Grieg (GJENDINES LULLABY, OP. 66, NO. 19).
I simply cant get a clean sound. It's always not synchronous. THe sound i get is "dirty".

Tricks? suggestions? exercises? how do you approach this problem?
thanks in advance

Guess what?:  Bach did not play them that way.

What is it about the size, shape, and length of your fingers that makes you think that it is normal to play these two notes in synchronization.

Please listen to my link on this subject, and for those trollers who choose to disagree, I have my academic sources at the ready.

[j_menz]

Guess what?:  Bach did not play them that way.
.....
Please listen to my link on this subject, and for those trollers who choose to disagree, I have my academic sources at the ready.

Your "academic sources" relate to (late) 19th and early 20th century performance practice. Do you have anything to support your (well flogged) theory to extend it to Baroque practice?

EDIT: I might also add that whatever the result desired as a matter of principle or taste, it should be a choice that one is able to exercise, not something one must do because one can do no other. If you can't play two notes simultaneously, how can you play them at a chosen interval apart? I endorse, FWIW, the suggested practice routines of timothy42b and quantum.

[nyiregyhazi]

Guess what?:  Bach did not play them that way.

What is it about the size, shape, and length of your fingers that makes you think that it is normal to play these two notes in synchronization.

Please listen to my link on this subject, and for those trollers who choose to disagree, I have my academic sources at the ready.

Would you please refrain from discrediting the validity of proper rubato by making such an ignorant point? Perhaps you also roll every third in Chopin's thirds etude? If you think Bach never wanted two notes struck together then you are indeed the crank that you would already appear to most. It would be a shame for the importance of older practises to be tarred with the same brush as the perfectly ludicrous argument you are making about double notes in bach. Stop trying to shoehorn your point into such inappropriate places- or your fanaticism will only serve to tarnish your point in the places where it actually stands up.

PS. If you have academic sources for something so improbable as the idea that Bach never wanted two notes struck together, try citing them. Not making empty claims that you could.

[louispodesta]

Your "academic sources" relate to (late) 19th and early 20th century performance practice. Do you have anything to support your (well flogged) theory to extend it to Baroque practice?

EDIT: I might also add that whatever the result desired as a matter of principle or taste, it should be a choice that one is able to exercise, not something one must do because one can do no other. If you can't play two notes simultaneously, how can you play them at a chosen interval apart? I endorse, FWIW, the suggested practice routines of timothy42b and quantum.

A few months ago, I wrote to Dr. Robert Levin of Harvard, who is widely considered to be one of the top applied musicologists in the world, especially when it relates to the performance of Mozart.  My question related to the rolling of chords in the Mozart transcription of the slow movement of the A Major Piano Concerto K 488, by Carl Reinecke.

Here, he arpeggiates extensively, and I wanted to know what Dr. Levin thought about it.  His reply was:  "Rolling chords for expression’s sake is a well-known device, advocated by Czerny for Beethoven and applicable to a large swath of styles from Baroque and before to post-Romantic."

Good enough?

[nyiregyhazi]

A few months ago, I wrote to Dr. Robert Levin of Harvard, who is widely considered to be one of the top applied musicologists in the world, especially when it relates to the performance of Mozart.  My question related to the rolling of chords in the Mozart transcription of the slow movement of the A Major Piano Concerto K 488, by Carl Reinecke.

Here, he arpeggiates extensively, and I wanted to know what Dr. Levin thought about it.  His reply was:  "Rolling chords for expression’s sake is a well-known device, advocated by Czerny for Beethoven and applicable to a large swath of styles from Baroque and before to post-Romantic."

Good enough?

Speaking as someone who wrote an essay some ten or more years ago (about how Mozart himself described asynchronized hands and how it's plain wrong to call it a romantic add on), no. That isn't good enough.

Your assertion was that Bach couldn't have wanted any two notes struck together. That's absurd, especially in a contrapuntal style. You're determined to believe that anyone who opposes you is ignorant to history and from a modern camp that thinks all chords must land together. Sorry to break that assumption, but I've been spreading my chords all my life.

However, the music of Bach cannot be played as melody plus accompaniment. Spreading in counterpoint would often destroy the rhythmic logic of various voices. Only if the writing is clearly harmonic can chords be rolled. I use a few mild asynchronizations to bring out inner voices (eg I play the very low c sharp in the five part c sharp minor slightly after the right hand to help it project) but to casually destroy rhythmic logic by doing this on every chord would be absurd. Bach can take an occasional separation for a purpose but to roll left right and centre would destroy all sense of rhythm in voices.

If you want to give meaningful support to what is not a one-man crusade please don't bastardise an issue I care greatly about by making the false claim that bach couldn't have wanted two notes struck together. Bach is not a Mozart slow movement. Getting things factually wrong and misapplying evidence only discredits the cause.

[louispodesta]

The Taubman/Golandsky folks, who are nowhere near as intelligent as you are, teach their students (my coach being one of them) not to worry about playing perfect double notes.  And, they do so because it is, unless you study under your majesty, not a normal articulation of the hand and fingers.

I assume that Bach, Scarlatti, and Handel, as well as those who came before and after them,  had normal hands and fingers.

[j_menz]

Good enough?

No. Dr Levin is indeed a renowned Mozart scholar, and a performer of note for a range of repertoire, including Bach. His views on performance practices of the Baroque should be accorded respect, but they are not ironclad laws, and don't necessarily establish what was the practice of the time. Czerny is, after all, somewhat removed in time.

Also, what may be appropriate for a chord is not necessarily the same as what is appropriate for two notes in separate voices. Temporal displacement may still be appropriate, but it should be controlled, controllable and a matter of choice.

I'm not arguing that rolling chords is out of place, but your "roll everything" approach is too simplistic.

[nyiregyhazi]

The Taubman/Golandsky folks, who are nowhere near as intelligent as you are, teach their students (my coach being one of them) not to worry about playing perfect double notes.  And, they do so because it is, unless you study under your majesty, not a normal articulation of the hand and fingers.

I assume that Bach, Scarlatti, and Handel, as well as those who came before and after them,  had normal hands and fingers.

So they flubbed every instance of two simultaneously struck notes? Nonsense is nonsense whoever it comes from. Inability to play two notes together is not normal- except at the most basic levels. A performer who cannot play two notes together if they intend to will go nowhere. And a performer who only spreads chords because they are incapable of judging how to play two notes simultaneously will go no further. They will also achieve nothing musically from their lack of synchronisation. These gestures must be done deliberately and with purpose to yield musical results. When mere sloppiness stops two notes going together, the musical benefit is nil. I had to work very hard to learn how to use spreads to create musical effects. It takes a very specific way of playing the first note softly and unobtrusive and putting a full tone into the next (or sometimes the opposite), in order to have a meaningful result. Without the corresponding tonal balancing, split notes are just a lumpy mess. Part of the reason that technique became unpopular is that most pianists who attempt it are pretty clueless as to how to voice, in order to make the effect blend in seamlessly. Those who kept it up were mostly bad pianists. Fortunately, we do have artists like Grosvenor, pletnev and volodos around who know how to use the effect. Accidentally splitting two notes due to lack of control over your hands is not a route to musical results. The musical results only begin to come into play when you are equally capable of spreading or not spreading and know how to balance the dynamics to match.

Nobody said that normal thirds are a normal thing for a hand to do. It doesn't follow that you should do them sloppily or that it would even be possible to play advanced thirds without ability to play the notes together. It takes practise and training.

[louispodesta]

No. Dr Levin is indeed a renowned Mozart scholar, and a performer of note for a range of repertoire, including Bach. His views on performance practices of the Baroque should be accorded respect, but they are not ironclad laws, and don't necessarily establish what was the practice of the time. Czerny is, after all, somewhat removed in time.

Also, what may be appropriate for a chord is not necessarily the same as what is appropriate for two notes in separate voices. Temporal displacement may still be appropriate, but it should be controlled, controllable and a matter of choice.

I'm not arguing that rolling chords is out of place, but your "roll everything" approach is too simplistic.

I have never told, suggested or inferred, and I challenge anyone to quote a written post, on any website to the contrary, where I have said that a pianist should roll all of their chords.  NEVER!!

Further, you know this, but your goal is to apostatize the bogus Urtext (Robert Winter, UCLA) propaganda of "meticulous attention to the score."  Conversely, my stated purpose is to have the hundreds of millions of pianists on this globe exposed to the ORIGINAL performance practice as it was intended by the composers who wrote the music!

Additionally, this, as accurately described by Neal Peres Da Costa in his book "Off The Record," includes the breaking of the hands, altered rhythms, improvisation, and the modification of tempos.  That is they way they played whether you like it or not!

Specific to the OP on this thread, I have failed to mention that I cannot play rapid tempo Bach on a modern Hammerklavier.  And, my guess is neither would the composer have been able to.  The resistance on the actions of the claviers, harpsichords, organs, and the other keyboard instruments that Bach played, aren't even remotely in the same universe as a modern piano. 

[nyiregyhazi]

I have never told, suggested or inferred, and I challenge anyone to quote a written post, on any website to the contrary, where I have said that a pianist should roll all of their chords.  NEVER!!

(in response to a statement about playing two notes together).

"Guess what?:  Bach did not play them that way."

Please stop trying to be sensationalist for its own sake. It's no use claiming you never made a point that remains in your post. You do no favours for an issue I greatly care about when you put rationally unsupportable arguments in the same camp as the valid ones. If Bach did not ever play two notes together, as you explicitly suggested, you are saying a pianist should roll everything.

Specific to the OP on this thread, I have failed to mention that I cannot play rapid tempo Bach on a modern Hammerklavier.  And, my guess is neither would the composer have been able to.  The resistance on the actions of the claviers, harpsichords, organs, and the other keyboard instruments that Bach played, aren't even remotely in the same universe as a modern piano.  

Plenty of people can. If you can't, you're doing something wrong. What do you do in the Rachmaninoff 2nd concerto, that you've spoken of learning- if Bach is too much to play fast? The passage work is a whole lot more difficult there. Also, it surprised me to learn this, but acoustic organs can have a huge action weight- when they involve moving working parts. It's not all like your average Wurlitzer.

[j_menz]

apostatize

Perhaps you might check your dictionary. I think you mean evangelise, though I reject the assertion.

Additionally, this, as accurately described by Neal Peres Da Costa in his book "Off The Record," includes the breaking of the hands, altered rhythms, improvisation, and the modification of tempos.  That is they way they played whether you like it or not!

This relates to late 19th and early 20th century performance practice only, and is not in point as regards Bach.

Specific to the OP on this thread, I have failed to mention that I cannot play rapid tempo Bach on a modern Hammerklavier.  And, my guess is neither would the composer have been able to.  The resistance on the actions of the claviers, harpsichords, organs, and the other keyboard instruments that Bach played, aren't even remotely in the same universe as a modern piano. 

Pure speculation (other than you inability, which I accept).

[timothy42b]

Also, it surprised me to learn this, but acoustic organs can have a huge action weight- when they involve moving working parts. It's not all like your average Wurlitzer.

Trackers do, but other actions don't.  The pipe organ at my church doesn't change when I add stops.

[louispodesta]

Trackers do, but other actions don't.  The pipe organ at my church doesn't change when I add stops.

Thank you, but you do realize that what you just said is "pure speculation," " (jmenz says so, therefore it is true.)

Many a pianist have wrecked their hands trying to re-create Baroque composers writings on a modern piano.

[nyiregyhazi]

Thank you, but you do realize that what you just said is "pure speculation," " (jmenz says so, therefore it is true.)

Many a pianist have wrecked their hands trying to re-create Baroque composers writings on a modern piano.

No. Speculation about Bach is clearly as much. He's dead and never tried a modern piano. There was no speculation at all in what you commented on, however.

You're the first person I've ever heard citing Baroque music as being some kind of outlandish feat on a modern piano. It isn't. It's the most basic application of contrapuntal technique. If you can't do it on a piano, you need to address technical issues. The difficulty in such writing is in making a sustainable physical connections to overheld notes (which is neither wobbly nor founded on crushing down with arm pressure) that allows the other fingers to be free to move without being blocked by tension. It sure isn't easy- but it's the most basic foundation of any versatile piano technique in general. You need exactly the same skills to play any advanced music to a high level, whatever the style. Counterpoint is the ultimate test of technical foundations. It's where the kind of empty relaxation that you can squeeze by on within some pieces instantly turns into a need for tension- unless you have active fingers that create lasting stability without great force.

Oh and on the organ issue- there were only tracker organs in Bach's time. He wasn't playing the flimsy keyboard style actions around on electrical instruments these days. So he probably had to cope with plenty of key resistance. Looking for selective arguments to support a cause, like a lawyer might, could occasionally fool someone. But they cannot rewrite objective reality. If you have difficulties with the modern grand, there is something technical that you must address head on.