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What is... (Read 1982 times)

Offline hardy_practice

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What is...
« on: September 17, 2014, 06:05:31 AM »
...cannot cease to be.
B Mus, PGCE, DipABRSM

Offline j_menz

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Re: What is...
«Reply #1 on: September 17, 2014, 06:16:14 AM »
Your "Delete" button is broken?
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline hardy_practice

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Re: What is...
«Reply #2 on: September 17, 2014, 07:10:50 AM »
Being has no 'Delete' button!
B Mus, PGCE, DipABRSM

Offline outin

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Re: What is...
«Reply #3 on: September 17, 2014, 04:17:28 PM »
Whatever Bob and Mayla have seems to be contagious...

Offline senanserat

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Re: What is...
«Reply #4 on: September 17, 2014, 09:10:24 PM »
What is dead can never die.
"The thousand years of raindrops summoned by my song are my tears, the thunder that strikes the earth is my anger!"

Offline hardy_practice

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Re: What is...
«Reply #5 on: September 17, 2014, 09:32:54 PM »
What is dead can never die.
I think you mean whatever never was can't never have been.
B Mus, PGCE, DipABRSM

Offline senanserat

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Re: What is...
«Reply #6 on: September 17, 2014, 09:36:10 PM »
I think you mean whatever never was can't never have been.

I know what you're trying to do, and it terrifies me to know that you know that I know.
"The thousand years of raindrops summoned by my song are my tears, the thunder that strikes the earth is my anger!"

Offline j_menz

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Re: What is...
«Reply #7 on: September 17, 2014, 10:29:41 PM »
Being has no 'Delete' button!

But becoming does.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline Bob

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Re: What is...
«Reply #8 on: September 18, 2014, 12:45:45 AM »
Whatever Bob and Mayla have seems to be contagious...

What the...


*Bob sniffs his armpits.... just to be sure.*
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline hardy_practice

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Re: What is...
«Reply #9 on: September 18, 2014, 05:33:52 AM »
But becoming does.
Thus, he concluded that "Is" could not have "come into being" because "nothing comes from nothing". Existence is necessarily eternal. That which truly is
  • , has always been
  • , and was never becoming
  • ; that which is becoming
  • was never nothing (Not-
  • ), but will never actually be.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parmenides
B Mus, PGCE, DipABRSM

Offline j_menz

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Re: What is...
«Reply #10 on: September 18, 2014, 05:41:46 AM »
Parmenides

Whose argument would be all the more convincing had he not rather spoiled it by dying.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline hardy_practice

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Re: What is...
«Reply #11 on: September 18, 2014, 05:45:14 AM »
Whose argument would be all the more convincing had he not rather spoiled it by dying.
Only the bit that never existed in the first place.
B Mus, PGCE, DipABRSM

Offline j_menz

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Re: What is...
«Reply #12 on: September 18, 2014, 05:51:33 AM »
Only the bit that never existed in the first place.

Ahh, but where is the proof that there was ever any such bit?
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline hardy_practice

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Re: What is...
«Reply #13 on: September 18, 2014, 06:19:42 AM »
The 'bit' never was.
B Mus, PGCE, DipABRSM

Offline dima_ogorodnikov

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Re: What is...
«Reply #14 on: September 18, 2014, 06:47:38 AM »
-
No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline hardy_practice

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Re: What is...
«Reply #15 on: September 18, 2014, 05:23:39 PM »
Could you give a little more context? The tail of a stressed, disoriented snake that starts eating itself, for example, could certainly be an exception to the rule.
More Parmenides:

 In his opinion truth lies in the perception that existence is, and error in the idea that non-existence also can be. ...Parmenides goes on to consider in the light of this principle the consequences of saying that anything is. In the first place, it cannot have come into being. If it had, it must have arisen from nothing or from something. It cannot have arisen from nothing; for there is no nothing. It cannot have arisen from something; for here is nothing else than what is. Nor can anything else besides itself come into being; for there can be no empty space in which it could do so. Is it or is it not? If it is, then it is now, all at once. In this way Parmenides refutes all accounts of the origin of the world. Ex nihilo nihil fit.

Basically Parmenides was a very important school of thought.  Plato failed to accept it and passed that failure on to Aristotle and then we had SCIENCE - which should never have happened!
B Mus, PGCE, DipABRSM

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: What is...
«Reply #16 on: September 18, 2014, 05:38:48 PM »
How long did you not exist before you came into existence? You could have waited trillions to the power of trillion years, perhaps one trillion trillion big bangs ago? If there is a microscopic chance you will come into existence then you will have that chance eventually. Your time now is precious, soon you will return to a long period of nothingness, but eventually you will return again though not know that you have.
"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all."
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Offline hardy_practice

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Re: What is...
«Reply #17 on: September 18, 2014, 06:19:00 PM »
How long did you not exist before you came into existence? You could have waited trillions to the power of trillion years, perhaps one trillion trillion big bangs ago? If there is a microscopic chance you will come into existence then you will have that chance eventually. Your time now is precious, soon you will return to a long period of nothingness, but eventually you will return again though not know that you have.
That's all science.  Blame Plato for that mindset.
B Mus, PGCE, DipABRSM

Offline Bob

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Re: What is...
«Reply #18 on: September 19, 2014, 02:31:35 AM »
Was there time before you existed?  That could all be an eternity/instant.  Timeless.  No time at all and an endless stretch of time.
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline outin

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Re: What is...
«Reply #19 on: September 19, 2014, 03:50:32 AM »
Where's Thal when we need him  ::)

Offline Bob

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Re: What is...
«Reply #20 on: September 19, 2014, 04:13:04 AM »
He might say something like, "In the beginning, the was a banjo..."
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline outin

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Re: What is...
«Reply #21 on: September 19, 2014, 04:18:45 AM »
... the was a banjo...

Now this is getting even more weird...Thal contemplating on the essence of the?

Offline dima_ogorodnikov

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Re: What is...
«Reply #22 on: September 19, 2014, 05:18:57 AM »
-
No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline hardy_practice

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Re: What is...
«Reply #23 on: September 19, 2014, 05:26:54 AM »
Was there time before you existed?  That could all be an eternity/instant.  Timeless.  No time at all and an endless stretch of time.
The mind, according to Kant, does not passively receive information provided by the senses. Rather, it actively shapes and makes sense of that information. If all the events in our experience take place in time, that is because our mind arranges sensory experience in a temporal progression, and if we perceive that some events cause other events, that is because our mind makes sense of events in terms of cause and effect...Time and space, Kant argues, are pure intuitions of our faculty of sensibility, and concepts of physics such as causation and inertia are pure intuitions of our faculty of understanding.
B Mus, PGCE, DipABRSM

Offline hardy_practice

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Re: What is...
«Reply #24 on: September 19, 2014, 05:31:11 AM »
It seems to me that Parmenides is talking about his vision of God, Who is said to have no beginning and no end and is entirely self-sufficient. As far as I can judge with my limited reasoning, Parmenides' law applies to God only, because everything else that exists is physical, was created by God, and needs at least an environment to exist in. It can therefore also cease to exist in its present form within that environment.
It's not really about people or god's - it's about existence.
B Mus, PGCE, DipABRSM

Offline j_menz

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Re: What is...
«Reply #25 on: September 19, 2014, 05:31:37 AM »
according to Kant

Perhaps you should read him. His Wikipedia article does him something of an injustice.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline j_menz

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Re: What is...
«Reply #26 on: September 19, 2014, 05:32:27 AM »
it's about existence.

Ah, but necessary or contingent?
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline hardy_practice

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Re: What is...
«Reply #27 on: September 19, 2014, 05:51:07 AM »
A - that quote is not wiki and B - I was reading (and understanding) Kant as a teenager!
B Mus, PGCE, DipABRSM

Offline dima_ogorodnikov

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Re: What is...
«Reply #28 on: September 19, 2014, 05:53:59 AM »
-
No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline outin

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Re: What is...
«Reply #29 on: September 19, 2014, 07:23:10 AM »
A - that quote is not wiki and B - I was reading (and understanding) Kant as a teenager!

Who wasn't?

Oh, wait, me! I was much more keen on Marx  ;)

Offline hardy_practice

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Re: What is...
«Reply #30 on: September 19, 2014, 04:17:58 PM »
How can we know that for sure? We should be very careful with our conclusions because between the original and what we can read now in our own languages are several translations in other languages that could possibly have distorted the real meaning of the original.
Doesn't matter some philosophers (see Bertrand Russell) interpret him differently.  As it happens Parmenides and I came up with the same conclusion independently!  That's why I quoted him.  With Kant it was more of a learning process.    

Who wasn't?

Oh, wait, me! I was much more keen on Marx  ;)
Funny, I'm off to his library on Wednesday.
B Mus, PGCE, DipABRSM

Offline dima_ogorodnikov

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Re: What is...
«Reply #31 on: September 19, 2014, 06:24:47 PM »
-
No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline hardy_practice

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Re: What is...
«Reply #32 on: September 19, 2014, 06:43:14 PM »
And that, in the world of modern philosophy, I'm sure is a perfectly acceptable interpretation.  I, however, am interested in it on a far more personal level.  Do you 'partake' of existence? i.e. aware of your existence?  If so, how did the idea or concept of non-existence come to coexist under that same roof?   and does this 'partaking of existence' not invalidate non-existence as a concept?  or in other words existing is just that.  Presumably there's some malevolent force that feels its interests are best served by dishing up this non-exist concept to you.  All very difficult to put into words.  
B Mus, PGCE, DipABRSM

Offline dima_ogorodnikov

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Re: What is...
«Reply #33 on: September 19, 2014, 07:17:58 PM »
-
No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline hardy_practice

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Re: What is...
«Reply #34 on: September 19, 2014, 07:50:15 PM »
"Non-existence" is not necessarily an "illusion" (something that does not physically exist)
'Non-existence is' - how can one say that?  or non-existence does not physically exist?   Wittgenstein knew these absurdities all have their origin in language.  You need to be careful.
B Mus, PGCE, DipABRSM

Offline dima_ogorodnikov

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Re: What is...
«Reply #35 on: September 20, 2014, 03:41:53 AM »
-
No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline hardy_practice

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Re: What is...
«Reply #36 on: September 20, 2014, 06:09:03 AM »
Do you mean "one", or "me" in particular? In post #28, I already warned about the language barriers that may give rise to misinterpretation somewhere along the road of translating from one language into another and yet into another. One fragment is not even known in the original; we have a Latin translation only.

Since you and some of the other native speakers of English on this forum cannot even understand each other within the boundaries of one language, how can we expect a correct understanding of something that was filtered through several languages in a row?
No, I mean language itself.  That we can say 'is not' is absurd.  Mortals extrapolate from there and everything goes topsy turvy.  And that includes Plato!
B Mus, PGCE, DipABRSM

Offline dima_ogorodnikov

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Re: What is...
«Reply #37 on: September 20, 2014, 06:26:14 AM »
-
No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline hardy_practice

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Re: What is...
«Reply #38 on: September 20, 2014, 06:52:25 AM »
How's your Italian?  This is the guy who floats my boat!  Trouble is there are no translations of his work out there.

He was twenty-three, was already a lecturer at the University, and one day, while working on his first book on the "Fisica" (Physics) of Aristotle in his small study, he was swept away by a surge of new thoughts. " it was as being inside a vortex, in a maelström, and below the earth appeared and the eternal being materialized as it were the bottom of the sea ". It is from that moment that his philosophical adventure began. The philosophy of Emanuele Severino inserts itself in the ontological debate initiated by Heidegger, but that, unlike Heidegger, propounds a return to the ancient thought of Parmenides of Elea. For Severino, the principal question to be faced goes back to classic philosophy and concerns the contradiction or the agreement between the being and the not-being or becoming. The philosopher tackles the problem keeping in mind current authors such as Nietzsche and Heidegger. The general thesis is that the sin and the error of the West and of Christianity included, consist in their distancing from the precepts of Parmenides according to which only the act of being is and can be thought and defined. In choosing not to respect the teachings of Parmenides and introducing the concept of "becoming" in thought and in history, the West found itself in a situation without exit that has brought about the present dominion of reason and technology.

...The abandonment of the "being" of Parmenides and the choice of the "becoming" is the folly of the West, the path of the night, the original space where the forms of western culture, with its social and political institutions, have moved. Faced with the anguish of "becoming", the West, responding to the logic of the remedy, has evoked the "immutables" (God, the laws of nature, dialectics, the free market, the ethical or political laws, ecc.).

from: http://www.filosofico.net/severinoenglish.htm

To the list of "immutables" I'd add institutions (like the school I teach at - the kids think it exists for chrissake!)
B Mus, PGCE, DipABRSM

Offline dima_ogorodnikov

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Re: What is...
«Reply #39 on: September 20, 2014, 07:09:01 AM »
-
No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline hardy_practice

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Re: What is...
«Reply #40 on: September 20, 2014, 07:33:44 AM »
Well, I think the upshot of all this is that in place of belief, faith etc you place acceptance.  Acceptance that what is, cannot cease to be.   Now that's hard to do because it's real, unlike faith, belief etc.  Any child can do those!  (which is in fact what childhood does - because after all childhood isn't real either!)
B Mus, PGCE, DipABRSM

Offline dima_ogorodnikov

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Re: What is...
«Reply #41 on: September 20, 2014, 08:14:35 AM »
-
No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline hardy_practice

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Re: What is...
«Reply #42 on: September 20, 2014, 09:12:02 AM »
Your phrase "Any child can do those" sounds a bit unfair towards children because who is better at accepting (=believing) anything without physical evidence than a child is? Tell them that Santa Claus exists, for example, and they will accept that as the truth.
But he doesn't exist and that's the point!  Children believe anything (I know I've taught thousands over the years).  Childhood is an indoctrination into his/her community's social constructs.  Apart from physical growth there's not much else to it.  Their nascent knowledge of the real is covered over in layer after layer of these constructs.

Dima, you seemed to have forced me into proselytizing.  Here from Severino is stuff I also know (I've no use for belief, hope etc.):

Every feeling and thought of ours, every form and nuance of the world, every gesture of man are eternal. And also all that appears everyday and in every instant: the first fire lit by man, the weeping of Jesus at his birth, the oscillations of the lamp in front of Galileo, Hiroshima alive and its corpse. Eternal are every hope and every instant of the world, with all the contents of the instant, eternal is the conscience that sees things with their eternity and sees the folly of the persuasion that things come from nothing and return to it.

Don't ask me how I know this, that's one mystery seemingly out of reach.
B Mus, PGCE, DipABRSM

Offline dima_ogorodnikov

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Re: What is...
«Reply #43 on: September 20, 2014, 09:34:14 AM »
-
No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline hardy_practice

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Re: What is...
«Reply #44 on: September 20, 2014, 10:45:21 AM »
and that as a rule, "anything you cannot see, hear, feel, touch, etc. doesn't exist".
Is that not true for one year olds? Why is that treated as such an aberration?
B Mus, PGCE, DipABRSM

Offline dima_ogorodnikov

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Re: What is...
«Reply #45 on: September 20, 2014, 11:37:52 AM »
-
No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline hardy_practice

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Re: What is...
«Reply #46 on: September 20, 2014, 11:59:30 AM »
Do you know Plato's cave?  He may have been happy to designate those inside as mortals as opposed to those who make it out.
B Mus, PGCE, DipABRSM

Offline dima_ogorodnikov

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Re: What is...
«Reply #47 on: September 20, 2014, 01:23:52 PM »
-
No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline hardy_practice

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Re: What is...
«Reply #48 on: September 20, 2014, 04:15:13 PM »
That's kids' stuff.  Here's Brouwer who should have changed the face of Mathematics with his twoities (he also denied the law of the excluded middle):

FIRST ACT OF INTUITIONISM

Completely separating mathematics from mathematical language and hence from the phenomena of language described by theoretical logic, recognising that intuitionistic mathematics is an essentially languageless activity of the mind having its origin in the perception of a move of time. This perception of a move of time may be described as the falling apart of a life moment into two distinct things, one of which gives way to the other, but is retained by memory. If the twoity thus born is divested of all quality, it passes into the empty form of the common substratum of all twoities. And it is this common substratum, this empty form, which is the basic intuition of mathematics.
B Mus, PGCE, DipABRSM

Offline mjames

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Re: What is...
«Reply #49 on: September 20, 2014, 04:42:42 PM »
nerds