Technical problem about Tannhauser overture

[necropolis]

Hello everyone, I'm a new-comer and I'm here to ask something about the Wagner-Liszt Tannhauser overture which I'm studying.
Actually my hand is not very big, so I get very upset when struggling with the tremolos like in this page:

It's really creepy. I even have trouble to get to these tenths precisely at tempo, let along emphasize some notes and keep others clear and even.
Could you share me your experience or give me some advice? thanks a lot!

[j_menz]

The picture you have posted appears to be the incorrect one.

The only tremolos I can see where a tenth is involved are in the bars before the appassionata espessivo mark, the last of them on 3 staves. Is that the right spot?

If so, you don't have to hold the top note. If you check under the hood, those strings probably aren't even damped, so pedal isn't necessary either - they'll hold themselves regardless - and you can move your hand into a more comfortable arrangement for the actual tremolos.

[necropolis]

Thanks a lot for your suggestion. I think I'm always release the bottom note at that spot.
However, it's not the spot I'm talking about……
I have changed a site to upload the image, I think it's available now.
Thank you again!

[j_menz]

OK, I see where you mean now - RH after marcatissimo.

Don't stetch the whole tenth, use 1-2 or 1-3 (1-2 if the top note of those two is black, 1-3 if the bottom note is) on the bottom notes and move your hand to reach the top one (with 5), keeping 2/3 over (just touching or just above) the top of the bottom two.

Start slowly, and, if it helps, do the initial run throughs  actually holding that 2/3 note down throughout until your comfortable. Then play it as written, slowly, and then speed it up.

[lostinidlewonder]

For example (RH line 2 Bar 3 )

(G# E) to B  with  (12) 5

You can break this movement down

Neglect the Thumb first so you are simply doing the E to B and the following patterns also without the thumb. You may notice that the 2nd finger is a center point where you do not move. This position should feel most easy for you to do even with smaller hands. 

Next add the thumb and remove the 2nd finger, you will notice you have to move a lot if you have small hands that is unavoidable. This movement is what makes the tremolo most challenging.

Next play it as written but try to maintain the feeling of both of the previous simplifications. You need to use the 2nd finger as a pivot point if your hand is small and be able to move your 1 and upper finger effectively around it. If your center position 2 is moving then you will have too much problems.

[necropolis]

Actually, by the fingerings Liszt gave in the previous pages(he really gave very few fingerings in this piece), we should play the bottom notes all in 12. I have tried the 2/3 method, it even become more painful(you can try at a piano).
I'm considering maybe I should use the power of wrist, anyway, thanks!

[j_menz]

I have tried the 2/3 method, it even become more painful(you can try at a piano).

I mean 1-2 or 1-3.

2/3 is used only to refer to the top finger, ie 2 or 3 depending on your choice. If 1-2 alone works for you, that's fine. For my hand, 1-3 works better if the bottom note is black and the top note (of the two) isn't as it reduced the amount of arm movement required.

I have no idea what you mean by "power of the wrist" in this context.

[necropolis]

About "the power of wrist", I don't know how to express that precisely. Just a thought flashed in my brain when I type the reply.
I will slow down as you say, until I can handle them naturally. How nice it would be if I have bigger hands!!!

[necropolis]

You can break this movement down

This is a nice idea, lol .
I think I can do the tremolo well and keep 2nd finger steady in the beginning part. But as you see the bottom, medium and top notes are changing all the time, and each time they changed I felt an obvious unsteadiness in my performance, especially in the line 3 bar 1.
Do you have any good idea to help me finish these changes swiftly and steadily? thx

[lostinidlewonder]

How to exactly drill the motion would require that I sit besides you and see how you are doing it. But here is some general advice.

So if we look at the 8 groups of 4 semiquavers in RH (starting Line 2 bar3 and finishing at the end of Line 3 Bar 1), I would group them up.

(1-3)(4-5)(6-8)

For (1-3) and (6-8) use 2nd finger for center, and for (4-5) you should use 3 (easier ofor 2 reasons, the interval between thumb is better and moving into group 6 is easier).

Some might feel it necessary to use 5 and 4 fingers in group (1) but it is not totally necessary because you are forced into position where you must repeat with the 5 only later on. (when you play the Fx in Line 4 Bar 1)

[liszt1022]

This would make a great pairing with Totentanz, but those tremolos are keeping me from getting started! They're just not happening with me.

[necropolis]

How to exactly drill the motion would require that I sit besides you and see how you are doing it. But here is some general advice.

I think so. Your advice really help a lot, thank you!!

[necropolis]

This would make a great pairing with Totentanz, but those tremolos are keeping me from getting started! They're just not happening with me.

From my perspective, this piece is more triky than the totentanz. How to convey the idea of Wagner and how to not lose control in those maniacal bravura is even trickier.

[richard black]

I reckon that if you don't have a very comfortable span of a tenth, this piece just isn't worth the bother. There are lots of other fun transcriptions to work on without killing yourself. It's a good piece, just not written for smaller hands, end of subject.

[necropolis]

I reckon that if you don't have a very comfortable span of a tenth, this piece just isn't worth the bother. There are lots of other fun transcriptions to work on without killing yourself. It's a good piece, just not written for smaller hands, end of subject.

My teacher gave me this piece that means he believe I can handle these problems. And this is not the most difficult I have encountered. Small hands surely will have more troubles, but effort and wisdom can make up.