Tapping explanation

[hardy_practice]

With "mash" I mean trying to get the keys down without finger activity; trying to press down the keys while keeping the fingers "relaxed".

Of course you can't.  As soon as you begin key depression you must add tension somewhere to overcome the key's inertia.  Why would you do that pre-key depression though?  that's my point.

[pianoplayer002]

Of course you can't.  As soon as you begin key depression you must add tension somewhere to overcome the key's inertia.  Why would you do that pre-key depression though?  that's my point.

To me tension implies something static and stiff, which is the last thing you want to be doing. Would you say a person jumping up into the air is adding tension to his legs? Playing the piano is admittedly not the same thing as jumping, but in both cases you are using muscular activity to move.

[nyiregyhazi]

To me both of those videos have no any difference, just because... both of them reveal you are doing it totally wrong--exactly as I suspected and pointed out above. There is no any value in you spending considerable amount of time doing tapping and then "share your experience"... Moreover, it is very harmful for you, as you learn how to play incorrect. Even worse, you give the others the wrong message...

The 6th Rhapsody show is a total mess--you totally miss the right technique for that--as a result it is stiff, druggy, sloppy, lacks charm, lightness, and virtuosity.

Best, M

And the solution you propose is? I didn't present it as a model of technique. I presented it to show a severely underperforming and lifeless fifth finger going on to perform better by bonding with keys more actively rather than flopping like a useless limp dick (as is actively encouraged by instructions to relax, with no added context). You're welcome to be critical, but it would be of far more benefit to discussion if you proposed some of kind of ideas for alternatives. Just relax more (like I spent years attempting in vain)? I hope you're a little more specific with your students. I'm open to criticism, but it's worthless without ideas for solution, especially in the context of such a discussion.

PS. The version I am using is by Richard Beauchamp, as already stated. I used goulds version previously and observed no notable differences. I also found it extremely uncomfortable due to the compression of the nail joint and found it sometimes caused pain in the tendons. Given that all the instructions really involve is hitting the nail joint, I'm rather doubtful that I somehow failed to follow the instructions correctly. If you can only assert that this alternative version of tapping is "wrong" then I suggest you reconsider how to debate- especially as you are not even putting any supporting arguments behind your dismissive assertion. Simply saying you're right and anything else is "wrong" (without any supportive reasoning to consider) may be fine in your personal teaching room, but this is an open forum. Having fewer words by simply asserting that you are correct while others are wrong (without any substantiation or reasoning) does not make a person more correct.

[nyiregyhazi]

Of course you can't.  As soon as you begin key depression you must add tension somewhere to overcome the key's inertia.  Why would you do that pre-key depression though?  that's my point.

Yes. And why would a sprinter want to be poised ready to spring off the starting blocks before a race, rather than trying to be as relaxed as possible. The race hasn't even begun. It's stupid to want to be ready for what is about to come. They should wait for the starters gun before they stop chilling out.

[hardy_practice]

To me tension implies something static and stiff, which is the last thing you want to be doing. Would you say a person jumping up into the air is adding tension to his legs? Playing the piano is admittedly not the same thing as jumping, but in both cases you are using muscular activity to move.

I'm sure we all do different things jumping in the air.  If your hand is not doing anything on the keyboard it is static - that's the meaning of the word.  There's no reason static and stiff should go together at all.  If something is static it needs to be relaxed.

[nyiregyhazi]

I'm sure we all do different things jumping in the air.  If your hand is not doing anything on the keyboard it is static - that's the meaning of the word.  There's no reason static and stiff should go together at all.  If something is static it needs to be relaxed.

No. Because standing up is counterexample. Static and involved in action, not relaxed. That's definable nonsense, beyond all doubt and one the most shortsighted attempts to pluck a rule out of thin air I've ever encountered. The hand too must stand against the resistance of keys. Much more subtly and with vastly less weight. But failing to do so means the start of motion will involve a buckling finger and the chaotic unpredictable results that come with that.

All you can see is generic tension and generic relaxation. What accomplished players do is an action against the resistance of the key. That is neither of those. Whether you're being willfully deceitful (in attributing the only alternative to empty relaxation as stiffness) or simply not thinking it through, these are not the sole two options. The idea that because we don't want stiffness, we must always aspire to be as inactive as possible is a gross fallacy, that comes from ignorance about the greater breadth of possibilities. Which is why runners prep themselves against starter blocks, rather than chill out through fear of tension.

[hardy_practice]

What accomplished players do is an action against the resistance of the key.

Not until they wish  to depress it!

[nyiregyhazi]

Not until they wish  to depress it!

Yes, just like how runners do absolutely nothing at all before the starters gun goes. They just relax their legs as much as possible and wait. After all, why would it matter how clearly your finger is connected to the key during the start of the movement? Let any old rubbish go by and hope to recover before the key finishes going down. Never mind the the fact that in your case the key frequently fails to even sound due to the chaotic pacing of your acceleration. I'm sure that's nothing to do with assuming that there's no need to achieve any quality of readiness. No correlation whatsoever between thinking that a state of readiness can be dispensed with and a pianist who does not reliably succeed in moving a key sufficiently consistently to even send the hammer to the strings every time, let alone achieve fine dynamic control.

Given that you're saying that a pianist should do nothing until the sound is wanted and then instantly start retracting in the split second after escapement, would you like to post that matthay quote again? The one where he spoke of moving keys gradually and not suddenly? A mindset of zero preparation followed by instant retraction (in the fraction of a second it takes to reach escapement during loud playing) is supposed to be compatible with that? Is your brain even capable of registering cognitive dissonance or any two contradictory statements perfectly compatible in your mind?

[hardy_practice]

Yes, just like how runners do absolutely nothing at all before the starters gun goes.

what do runners have to do with anything?  Sheesh.  Actually, being totally relaxed is most important for this tapping exercise otherwise your nervous system takes the wrong info on board.

[nyiregyhazi]

what do runners have to do with anything?  Sheesh.  Actually, being totally relaxed is most important for this tapping exercise otherwise your nervous system takes the wrong info on board.

I use Beauchamp's version for the specific reason that you cannot succeed unless the finger is connected to the key. Tension and flaccid alike are exposed, for correction. I don't like gould 's so much as it only checks that you are not fixated. Through trying both, I find that Beauchamp's version has all the benefits of gould version but more additional ones that are even more significant. It does more to inform as to what is needed in real world playing. If you learn to make the notes sound with the gould version then great. But if not, you need a better test of how energy flows to the key.

[hardy_practice]

Here's Beauchamp:
This ties in well with what my own teacher, Ernest Empson, told me of Godowski (his teacher)’s methods. Godowski told his pupils that the whole hand should remain relaxed in virtuoso fingerwork “as though it had fainted” and that the fingers were moved by tiny sparks of energy which allowed the fingers to return to the relaxed state instantly. When you listen to recordings of Godowski’s lightning leggiero finger work (as in Liszt’s “La Leggierezza” for example) this description makes good sense.

[nyiregyhazi]

Here's Beauchamp:
This ties in well with what my own teacher, Ernest Empson, told me of Godowski (his teacher)’s methods. Godowski told his pupils that the whole hand should remain relaxed in virtuoso fingerwork “as though it had fainted” and that the fingers were moved by tiny sparks of energy which allowed the fingers to return to the relaxed state instantly. When you listen to recordings of Godowski’s lightning leggiero finger work (as in Liszt’s “La Leggierezza” for example) this description makes good sense.

Well you see what happens when the fifth is literally relaxed on my film. For it to work, you have to replace relaxed with "not stiff". Try for yourself and see how efficiently an inert finger transmits energy. The exercise is so good for the very reason that anyone taking that literally will see for themself at once that it doesn't actually work. The feedback is instant.

[hardy_practice]

No thanks.  I'll go with Godowsky.

[nyiregyhazi]

No thanks.  I'll go with Godowsky.

If you achieve something bearing any similarity to that description, post a video of it in action. But if you think any old squashed hand position will allow the illusion of going from literal relaxation to a clear and precise energy transfer, forget it. You should try the exercise. What makes it so great is that a disconnected finger performs quite so poorly that even someone who actually intends to literally relax will soon find their finger wanting to make a better connection to the key. The illusion cannot be accessed before fingers know how to poise themselves for efficient energy transfer. Relaxed fingers transmit extremely unpredictably and awkwardly, until they learn to engage with the resistance in advance. The surge of energy followed by nothing only comes if the finger starts right. Try it on a student with a droopy hand and you'll see how poorly a floppy hand transmits the tap. Hardly any reaches the key. Teach them to bond and the illusion can begin

[hardy_practice]

As I said I'll take Godowski's advice.  When I want advice from a foul-mouthed nothing I'll let you know.

[nyiregyhazi]

As I said I'll take Godowski's advice.  When I want advice from a foul-mouthed nothing I'll let you know.

Great. How about one of your videos? Tap relaxed fingers (with no preliminary action against the key resistance) in Beauchamps manner and upload the result.

[marik1]

And the solution you propose is? I didn't present it as a model of technique. I presented it to show a severely underperforming and lifeless fifth finger going on to perform better by bonding with keys more actively rather than flopping like a useless limp dick (as is actively encouraged by instructions to relax, with no added context). You're welcome to be critical, but it would be of far more benefit to discussion if you proposed some of kind of ideas for alternatives. Just relax more (like I spent years attempting in vain)? I hope you're a little more specific with your students. I'm open to criticism, but it's worthless without ideas for solution, especially in the context of such a discussion.

PS. The version I am using is by Richard Beauchamp, as already stated. I used goulds version previously and observed no notable differences. I also found it extremely uncomfortable due to the compression of the nail joint and found it sometimes caused pain in the tendons. Given that all the instructions really involve is hitting the nail joint, I'm rather doubtful that I somehow failed to follow the instructions correctly. If you can only assert that this alternative version of tapping is "wrong" then I suggest you reconsider how to debate- especially as you are not even putting any supporting arguments behind your dismissive assertion. Simply saying you're right and anything else is "wrong" (without any supportive reasoning to consider) may be fine in your personal teaching room, but this is an open forum. Having fewer words by simply asserting that you are correct while others are wrong (without any substantiation or reasoning) does not make a person more correct.

Dear N.,

Throughout the years I was trying to provide you solutions. Unfortunately, each word of mine you'd follow with ten of yours, which often just leaves one to wonder: "Are you serious???" To answer your question, yes, I am extremely specific with my students... with the problem presented in the class, when I can see and hear it.

To put it simply, I don't really have much time to argue with you. If you have any questions please ask. If you give solutions, then first, please come up with something worthwhile, instead of giving those presentations and "films", which only show your unprofessional attitude and approach to the keyboard, which you cover with pompous and verbose posts... There was another member... forgot his name...

Best, M

[nyiregyhazi]

Dear N.,

Throughout the years I was trying to provide you solutions. Unfortunately, each word of mine you'd follow with ten of yours, which often just leaves one to wonder: "Are you serious???" To answer your question, yes, I am extremely specific with my students... with the problem presented in the class, when I can see and hear it.

To put it simply, I don't really have much time to argue with you. If you have any questions please ask. If you give solutions, then first, please come up with something worthwhile, instead of giving those presentations and "films", which only show your unprofessional attitude and approach to the keyboard, which you cover with pompous and verbose posts... There was another member... forgot his name...

Best, M

Well, it's very easy to be brief this time. I tried to open genuine discussion, but there is not a single thought-provoking point in the topic among the tirade of invective.

As I said, I already tried the tapping extensively in goulds manner. It didn't change anything much and I haven't found notably more benefit than by simply tapping the fingers in mid air, to check they are capable of being passive. In fact, I prefer the latter, as it doesn't stress the nail joint by squashing it against the key. TheBeauchamp version tests for a host of other pianistic issues. The fact that Beauchamps version is not on your radar does not make it "wrong". Given that you have refused my sincere request for to put some meat to your assertion, the only words that spring to mind are to express my disappointment that you can assert authority yet have nothing further to give to an attempt at discussion but generic negativity.

[marik1]

Well, it's very easy to be brief this time. I tried to open genuine discussion, but there is not a single thought-provoking point in the topic among the tirade of invective.

As I said, I already tried the tapping extensively in goulds manner. It didn't change anything much and I haven't found notably more benefit than by simply tapping the fingers in mid air, to check they are capable of being passive. In fact, I prefer the latter, as it doesn't stress the nail joint by squashing it against the key. TheBeauchamp version tests for a host of other pianistic issues. The fact that Beauchamps version is not on your radar does not make it "wrong". Given that you have refused my sincere request for to put some meat to your assertion, the only words that spring to mind are to express my disappointment that you can assert authority yet have nothing further to give to an attempt at discussion but generic negativity.

The whole idea about tapping is the sequence between "idle" relaxation->very short and precise attack->immediate return into stand-by "idle" position. It is very important to take time between those to get the feeling of each state of the hand. What you do instead is just repeatedly slap your finger with your LH. What you want to accomplish with that?--I have no idea.

As for the octaves in the 6th Rhapsody, any octave technique is comprised of 3 major elements: 1) finger grab, 2) wrist shaking, and 3) entire arm vibration. All of those (as well as any kind of piano technique, BTW) is based on the entire body foundation, which starts from your feet, and then goes up to the bum, which is the main support and is a center.

Different octave passages require different involvement of those elements, but in the end, one of the most important consideration is the melodic line--its structure and shape. In the 6th Rhapsody it is pretty straightforward--you drop the hand into the sequence of eight notes and play them on "one", with the wrist naturally changing its position going up to prepare to drop it down for the next sequence. What you should do is to shake entire group off your sleeve, with your hand penetrating into it. Also, it should be played "half the key".

On the other hand, what you do, you just jump on each note (i.e. playing on "eight", instead on "one"), with a stiff wrist, uninvolved hand, and nonsensitive fingers, so both physical and musical executions do not have any meaningful intentions.

Hope that was helpful.

Best, M

[nyiregyhazi]

Thankyou for taking the time to respond in a way that sticks to topical points in a civil tone. Can I politely request in advance that, as I'm about detail points which are logically raised by your own, you appreciate that this is how two-sided discussion functions (rather than some outrageous cheek to your person)?

The whole idea about tapping is the sequence between "idle" relaxation->very short and precise attack->immediate return into stand-by "idle" position. It is very important to take time between those to get the feeling of each state of the hand. What you do instead is just repeatedly slap your finger with your LH. What you want to accomplish with that?--I have no idea.

Well, the first clue should probably come from your words "immediate return". What better way to check for immediacy than actually tapping fast? How would a slow tap then nothing check whether the finger is finding a position in which it is properly in stand-by? And if by "idle" you mean a position in which it's not readied, what relevance would it have to fast repeated notes- in which you need the finger ready for another motion in the instant it has finished sounding a note? That requires a proper link to the key. The point is to check that the stand-by is not "idle" but "ready" against the key, still. I do conventional tapping of each finger through pieces plenty, by the way. The point there was to test something that a single tap simply does not actually test. If a finger is not poised well, it droops and gives a flaccid energy transfer during a tap. Repeating taps quickly help the finger to fine-tune itself properly, so as to become an extension of the key, rather than be limply disconnected and thus incapable of passing on fast motions. The point is to find the state where movement is not wasted on drooping, but goes straight to the key. For that, there's no better test than faster repetition.

I also use a non-tapping exercise in which every finger plays twice. It was said to have been used by numerous great pianists of the past (and comes via Ronald Stevenson, who personally knew many of the greats, including Paderewski and Grainger). If a finger starts in a truly idle position (without joining itself to the resistance of the key) it functions so poorly under the pressure of two instantaneous attacks, that you quickly learn where holes are. I'm not going to write off any individual variants as "wrong", but if you wish to do so regarding faster repetition, it would be worth first asking how a series of very slow attacks are going to do anything to check whether the finger has found a suitable state from which to perform both efficiently and quickly. I'd still very much like to know the specific reasons for your blanket dismissal.

I have no dispute with any of your points about the rhapsody and that is indeed what I'm aiming for. However, you didn't detail any specifics about how to achieve these things and, above all, you didn't give any reason why checking that a finger can transmit energy to the key at a rapid rate would somehow be a "wrong" (your word) way to prepare for the requirement to do just that, within those octaves.

As I said, the film wasn't claiming virtuosity. It was to show how tapping improved the alignment of the 5th finger to the key. The results were certainly imperfect, but compare to this:

I'm not going to claim it demonstrates virtuosity, but in terms of the sound, this what I can do with a properly regulated instrument (as opposed to an antique upright with very sluggish repetition). However, note the even worse wrist position of the right hand and note frequency of a flaccid, drooped 5th finger (notably at 5.10). That's what come of being truly "idle" rather than properly connected to the key. I have a physical issue that makes it physically very difficult to achieve length down the fifth finger side of the wrist and to stop the knuckle sagging. I have all manner of grinding, clicking and popping sounds when trying to open out my hand. There is a great deal of internal resistance to finding what is simply the "normal" place for my left hand to align. What I was showing on the other video is how much better the wrist can go on to align after using tapping on the 5th, to show it how to be more ready. The hand learns to realign itself, so both wrist and 5th finger are better poised to pass movement to the key. You can see in the tapping film that the hand actually managed to find length down the 5th side (at least some of the time) rather than be trapped into a permanently bunched position.  

It's simply a fact that if your biggest problem is a limp and underactive finger, trying to be more passive is not the way to prepare. Passivity is the problem, and it requires a more active connection to the key- so it doesn't feel like trying to play through a piece of sponge. Any follow-up thoughts are more than welcome, but I'll politely repeat the request to keep it civil and on-topic.

[hardy_practice]

The whole idea about tapping is the sequence between "idle" relaxation->very short and precise attack->immediate return into stand-by "idle" position. It is very important to take time between those to get the feeling of each state of the hand. What you do instead is just repeatedly slap your finger with your LH. What you want to accomplish with that?--I have no idea.

As for the octaves in the 6th Rhapsody, any octave technique is comprised of 3 major elements: 1) finger grab, 2) wrist shaking, and 3) entire arm vibration. All of those (as well as any kind of piano technique, BTW) is based on the entire body foundation, which starts from your feet, and then goes up to the bum, which is the main support and is a center.

This is so 100% spot on.  Listen and learn folks!