Help with right hand fingering for this passage?

[michael_student]

My right hand fingers get all tangled up trying to play this at 110bpm.  I think part of the problem is having to use my thumb to hit the B flat at the end of the second measure while getting my fingers over the black notes to hit the beginning of the third measure.  What fingering would you use to play this?

I do have a piano teacher in Seattle, but I'm on a trip to Japan and won't get to see him for a while.

Posting even though I'm not sure the attachment is visible.

[dima_76557]

My right hand fingers get all tangled up trying to play this at 110bpm.

You could consider playing it at 109bpm then.  

I think part of the problem is having to use my thumb to hit the B flat at the end of the second measure while getting my fingers over the black notes to hit the beginning of the third measure.

Look at the slurs in each bar. They indicate how you should plan this technically. Bar 2 and 3 have nothing that ties anything technically. This means that as soon as you have quietly finished bar 2, you have the opportunity to take a quick breath, to start with a new bow (if this were for violin or cello), quickly change hand position, etc.

Besides, each bar contains 3 positions actually (every separate note of the melody is the indicator of a new technical position).

P.S.: Oh, and please don't "hit" that B flat or any other ending of any phrasal unit in the piece.

[michael_student]

Even within a bar I'm unsure of the best fingering or hand position to use, particularly when the bottom note is B-flat.  It feels awkward to have my hand this far up then need to get from one side of a black key to the other.  I've attached photos of how I'm currently playing the three chords that have B-flat on the bottom.

[dima_76557]

Even within a bar I'm unsure of the best fingering or hand position to use, particularly when the bottom note is B-flat.  It feels awkward to have my hand this far up then need to get from one side of a black key to the other.  I've attached photos of how I'm currently playing the three chords that have B-flat on the bottom.

In the third picture, for your hand, it looks like it's better to pick 1-2-4, not 1-2-3.

[quantum]

For the second bar try:
24, 1, 25, 1, 23, 1

Aim to grasp an entire bar with a single hand position, or as make as few changes as necessary to stick to a position.  Spread your hand over the area covered by a single bar, as opposed to continually expanding and contracting your fingers.  Keep your fingers over notes  you need to play so they are already in position when you need them.  

When playing passages like this, one needs to remember that not all notes receive equal weighting.  If you attempt to play all notes equally, what happens is the music becomes laborious because natural expressive qualities are sacrificed for notes.  It is like speaking and having every single syllable weighted the same.  

Think about phrasing, shaping, and beat accents.  You can maintain the perception of legato and also break when called for.

[michael_student]

Thank you for your help.  I have been experimenting with your advice.  It hadn't occurred to me to pay attention to the slur lines linking the notes within the measures and not between them.

For my right hand, I'm thinking that this is the fingering that requires the fewest hand position changes within the measures:
First measure: 34 1 25 1 (move 2 from E to D) 23 1
Second measure: 34 1 25 1 (move 2 from D to C) 23 1

I'm finding the first measure easy.  The second measure still contains the awkward position change of getting finger 2 over the black note (and sometimes playing it inadvertently) because my thumb is on the B-flat.  It does seem to fall apart less often than last week though.

[dima_76557]

For my right hand, I'm thinking that this is the fingering that requires the fewest hand position changes within the measures:
First measure: 34 1 25 1 (move 2 from E to D) 23 1
Second measure: 34 1 25 1 (move 2 from D to C) 23 1

While economy of hand movements is generally a good principle, you should also take into account that unnatural stretches between fingers tend to cause tension in the hand and forearm. A fingering is good if it is convenient for YOU, works all the time without falling apart, and gives you the musical results you expect.

[michael_student]

One thing I'm wondering... is it common to have to use one's thumb on the black notes, or is this just an odd arrangement I've chosen to play this time?  Am I going to run into this sort of thing a lot as I progress?

[dima_76557]

One thing I'm wondering... is it common to have to use one's thumb on the black notes, or is this just an odd arrangement I've chosen to play this time?  Am I going to run into this sort of thing a lot as I progress?

Yes. No. Yes. (In that order).