weighted gloves?

[cwjalex]

what do you guys think about the idea of having like gloves that have the tips of fingers removed but had weights on the fingers?  do you guys think this would help improve speed?  kind of like trainers who puts weights on parts of their body while they do exercises?  anyways I was wondering if something like this existed and if it didn't if you guys thought it might be useful to improve speed?

[awesom_o]

I don't think this is a good idea at all.

What's wrong with your speed, that needs to be improved?

My guess is that the musical quality itself is the only thing that requires improvement, and playing with weighted gloves on would be a likely way to injure yourself without making any musical improvement whatsoever.

[cwjalex]

nothing is "wrong" with my speed i would just like to be faster.  for instance I can play the 3rd movement of moonlight sonata at about 145 BPM but if I play it at like 165 BPM it gets messy.  It would be nice to be able to play it at the correct tempo.

[Bob]

Maybe for a little careful practicing.  Probably not while playing.

Tips removed though?   Don't you want the weight in the tips?   

[pianoman8]

There is definitely NOT the way to go. It seems like a way to seriously injure yourself. Look around on the forum about speed increase and you will find lots of info.

[cwjalex]

Maybe for a little careful practicing.  Probably not while playing.

Tips removed though?   Don't you want the weight in the tips?   

i meant just the front section where your finger touches the keys to be removed so it doesn't feel different.  I was thinking the weight could be on the back side of your finger tips. im not sure if i explained that clearly.  like where your finger prints are would be exposed but where your fingernails would be where the weights would be located.

i dunno it was just something i was thinking about that maybe could develop speed.  in karate I used to wear weights on my arms and legs while i practiced to help develop speed.  Once you get used to the weights comfortably you take them off and it feels like you can just fly.

[cwjalex]

There is definitely NOT the way to go. It seems like a way to seriously injure yourself. Look around on the forum about speed increase and you will find lots of info.

a couple people have talked about injury but I am not talking about a huge amount of weights, but rather just a little extra added weight so that it would require a tad more effort to move your fingers around.  I can't see how having a teeny bit of extra weight on your fingers would lead to injury.

[awesom_o]

nothing is "wrong" with my speed i would just like to be faster.  for instance I can play the 3rd movement of moonlight sonata at about 145 BPM but if I play it at like 165 BPM it gets messy. 

It sounds like there is a problem with your speed. You cannot play in fast tempo without sounding sloppy!

Do you have a teacher?

[cwjalex]

It sounds like there is a problem with your speed. You cannot play in fast tempo without sounding sloppy!

Do you have a teacher?

yes i have a teacher.  what other kind of problem with speed can you have?  i thought that was kind of obvious...

[Bob]

Just duct tape some weights on your hands and find out.  The gloves will add space between your fingers too.

Your hands will have to pull upward a bit which will be different from normal playing.... If the weight's above your hand, pressing down.  If it's hanging below, it's probably on your wrist and then the fingers would get the weight, from the pulling down.

The forearm will get more use lifting upward regardless of where the weight is on the hand, above or below.  I don't know if a weighted hand is going to give you the effect you want.  Moving weights at the ends of the fingers.. maybe.  Although I'd lean toward doing something else at the keyboard to increase speed.

[awesom_o]

It sounds like you are rather impatient in your quest to become a virtuoso. Didn't you say you have only been playing for one year?

How's your reading? Can you sight read well yet?

[outin]

for instance I can play the 3rd movement of moonlight sonata at about 145 BPM but if I play it at like 165 BPM it gets messy.  It would be nice to be able to play it at the correct tempo.

Yeah, it would also be nice to play like a concert pianist after a few years of lessons 

What you need is experience and correct practice. Not gimmicks.

When you play something too fast it becomes messy. Happens to all of us. What you need to do is practice slower until the speed increases naturally because you know what you are doing so well and the movements have become so automatic.

[dima_76557]

what do you guys think about the idea of having like gloves that have the tips of fingers removed but had weights on the fingers?  do you guys think this would help improve speed?  

Here's an interview with Liberace who states that he was trained that way ("with lead weights on his fingers") for exactly that purpose. The statement in question is at 0m47s:

If you feel that's what you need, try it.

P.S.: Personally, I think speed depends more on how fast you can pre-hear what you have to play and on how efficiently you move around on the keyboard.

[coda_colossale]

Umm, why don't you find a piano with heavier action to practice on?

[dima_76557]

Umm, why don't you find a piano with heavier action to practice on?

There is a significant technical difference in approach. If you are used to just digging into the keys, you may make things worse for your technique by practising on a heavier action. The "lead weight on your fingers" approach prevents that.
P.S.: This is not to say that I would use the device myself. Most likely not.

[timothy42b]

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Advantage-117B-7-File-Bands-1-4-Bag-Rubber-Bands-Assorted-Colors/20882076

These would work, tape one to each fingertip and the other end to your shoulder.  (cut the loop, obviously).

They're pretty good, I've used them to make slingshots.

My piano playing is not limited by dexterity but by coordination, because I don't play anything that needs that kind of speed. 

[dima_76557]

@ timothy42b

They tell me the product is out of stock.

Here's another idea for the OP, not exactly gloves but more the Liberace variant : fingerweights.com/musicfor-musicians.html
(disclaimer: I am in no way trying to advertise and/or endorse any of the products offered on this site. I have deliberately disabled the link)

[outin]

Here's another idea for the OP, not exactly gloves but more the Liberace variant : fingerweights.com (disclaimer: I am in no way trying to advertise and/or endorse any of the products offered on this site)

But Dima...I find this thread quite absurd...wouldn't it be best if the OP just accepted that it's too early for him to expect he can play the 3rd movement of the Moonlight in tempo without being messy after just ONE year of piano study? Instead of wasting his time and money on putting things on his fingers...

[dima_76557]

But Dima...I find this thread quite absurd...wouldn't it be best if the OP just accepted that it's too early for him to expect he can play the 3rd movement of the Moonlight in tempo without being messy after just ONE year of piano study? Instead of wasting his time and money on putting things on his fingers...

Oops. I thought nobody had noticed the discrepancy...
P.S.: But you'll have to admit that from 145 bpm to 165 bpm isn't a long way away, is it? So why not put those things on and get going? Anything is possible for those who "will" enough...

[flashyfingers]

Oops. I thought nobody had noticed the discrepancy...
P.S.: But you'll have to admit that from 145 bpm to 165 bpm isn't a long way away, is it? So why not put those things on and get going? Anything is possible for those who "will" enough...

Here we go, tendonitis.

[timothy42b]

What if you could play with your fingers in a very viscous fluid?

You'd have a plastic bag on top of the keys, and your hands would be in the fluid, which would resist your motion in every direction. 

[cwjalex]

hmm maybe i could design and patent weighted gloves for speed improvement for piano and make my millions that way loL. 

i actually wish i had a piano with heavier action i could practice on.  i play on a yamaha YPG-635 which has weighted keys but the action is definitely lower than most pianos and i find it uncomfortable and difficult to play on most other pianos.

i know it's only 20 bpm difference from 140 to 160 but just that bit of increase speed makes it worlds harder.  of course i can fudge it and play it at 160 but it is not nearly as clean if i slow it down a little bit. 

[flashyfingers]

Why don't you practice scales to a metronome, on a piano with weighted keys?
 

[awesom_o]

It sounds like you are rather impatient in your quest to become a virtuoso. Didn't you say you have only been playing for one year?

How's your reading? Can you sight read well yet?

[cwjalex]

It sounds like you are rather impatient in your quest to become a virtuoso. Didn't you say you have only been playing for one year?

How's your reading? Can you sight read well yet?

i am not impatient to become a virtuouso.  like everyone else i am just trying to improve as quickly as i possibly can.

yes ive been playing piano for about a year and no i can't sight read well yet.  sight reading is what i spend the most of my time working on but i still want to improve my technique at the same time

[awesom_o]

yes ive been playing piano for about a year and no i can't sight read well yet.  sight reading is what i spend the most of my time working on but i still want to improve my technique at the same time

Great! Sight-reading is all technique.... and technique is all sight-reading. Liszt was the best sight-reader because he had the best technique.... and he had the best technique because he was the best sight-reader! It's a vicious circle that goes around and around and around!

In order to improve your technique, I highly recommend the practice of the four-octave formula patterns, in all keys, major and minor. Once you can do them with the hands separated by an octave, you can try them with the hands separated by a third. When you have mastered those, you can graduate up to starting with the hands separated by a sixth.

The formula patterns are great fun, and really help develop our sense of the keyboard!
If you don't know what the formula patterns are, or how to do them, watch this video:

[j_menz]

P.S.: Personally, I think speed depends more on how fast you can pre-hear what you have to play and on how efficiently you move around on the keyboard.

That would be my view, too.

[Bob]

I don't think weighted gloves are going to be critical to increase speed.  You still have to do all the other things associated with increasing speed.  Maybe weights would just be an extra part.  If they really worked that well, everyone would be doing that. 

[dima_76557]

hmm maybe i could design and patent weighted gloves for speed improvement for piano and make my millions that way loL.

Somebody already did that about 40 years ago:
https://www.google.com/patents/US3838853

If they really worked that well, everyone would be doing that. 

I don't think so. Modern piano pedagogy strongly rejects finger lifting, which is what you have to do for these to work.

[nyiregyhazi]

I often practise with 1kg wrist weights. Seymour Bernstein recommends them. They teach you to move more from the fingers, but to avoid plopping dead weight through them. If you simply rest on a collapsing hand, it would do untold harm. If the fingers learn to connect to the keys without notable arm weight bearing through, they can do a world of good. But they only succeed if the fingers learn how to connect the arm with LESS weight bearing down- not if you treat them as way of trying to put more weight on top of the hand with active intent to burden it.

[awesom_o]

I often practise with 1kg wrist weights. Seymour Bernstein recommends them.

    

[cbreemer]

If you can't get a piece up speed without it getting messy you are just not ready for it, and slower practice is the way to go. Working with weights may improve strength (and maybe touch, as nye seems to suggest) but I can't think how it will improve agility and finesse. Apart from that it must be awful to play with gloves. Just my two cents.

[dima_76557]

If you can't get a piece up speed without it getting messy you are just not ready for it, and slower practice is the way to go.

Agreed. It's a musical + neurological problem, not a muscle thing.

Working with weights may improve strength (and maybe touch, as nye seems to suggest) but I can't think how it will improve agility and finesse.

It is a classic misconception to assume that strength training will hinder finely tuned skills and hamper agility. The latter qualities are all in the brain/mind, not in the muscles.
P.S.: Again, what I said is not to endorse this particular medieval torture device.

[cbreemer]

It is a classic misconception to assume that strength training will hinder finely tuned skills and hamper agility.

I did not sugest it would hinder or hamper anything. Just that it would not help

[gyzzzmo]

It is a classic misconception to assume that strength training will hinder finely tuned skills and hamper agility.

Actually, its not a misconception at all, it depends on the activity. For example shooting in basketball: If you did alot of strength excercises that morning, shooting goes differently.

But pianoplaying depends mainly on technique and the mind. Stamina is a 'far away' third, but problems there are usually caused by lack of technique. Usually you develop plenty of muscle stamina by playing alot and the normal daily activities.

Gyzzzmo

[dima_76557]

Actually, its not a misconception at all, it depends on the activity. For example shooting in basketball: If you did alot of strength excercises that morning, shooting goes differently.

Of course, on that same day, especially immediately after the strength exercises. Your muscles will need to recuperate. But generally, strength training does not have the lasting negative effect people usually think it has on your precision, and is actually quite beneficial for basketball since you don't train "stupid", "slow" strength there, but rather prepare yourself for explosive speed in your movements (power).
https://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/strength-training-for-basketball.html

[gyzzzmo]

Of course, on that same day, especially immediately after the strength exercises. Your muscles will need to recuperate. But generally, strength training does not have the lasting negative effect people usually think it has on your precision, and is actually quite beneficial for basketball since you don't train "stupid", "slow" strength there, but rather prepare yourself for explosive speed in your movements (power).
https://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/strength-training-for-basketball.html

You're mixing up things here. Precision is "slow" strength (and mainly mind-related) and requires different kind of training than explosive movements.

The thing with precision-movement (like with playing the piano) and muscles is that it ofcourse has an effect on each other if the muscles change. But as long as you keep training/playing, your brains adapt quickly and you only notice the difference at the beginning, if at all. So as said before, there is hinder, but only shortly.

[nyiregyhazi]

   

What's the worry? Plenty of pianists have arms that already way more than a kilo.

The point of this training is not to pile force on the fingers, but to reinforce the essential fact that the arms have to be responsive to what the fingers do and that the arm should NOT pile force down on the arm. Just an extra kilo of weight makes you feel quite how unpleasant it is to do so. The result is that you learn to stop slumping through an inactive hand and instead find a poise and balance in which you have meaingful connection between active finger and arm.

[awesom_o]

I suppose I have more than enough things in my own life to worry about that I honestly couldn't care less about how you choose to practice piano. It's a free country, and I'm not the 'practice police'.

I just hope that someone eventually helps you to liberate yourself from your obsession with 'technique' as a type of 'thing' so that you can actually begin to focus on music. 

[flashyfingers]

I (and others, too) have a really messed up philosophy when it comes to playing piano.

I say that you play in a way that is necessary, to get the sound that you want out of the piano. Even if it hurts. You do it in a way which allows your body time to recover and adjust.

Basically, you never wear on your tendons or joints. But building strength and reflexes are absolutely necessary. From when you first start playing piano, this is what you are doing. (In addition, you are training yourself to know what sound you are going for, exactly, and you have to learn to adjust yourself to this initial aim of sounding like you imagine you should sound. This is why you have to listen to a lot of different types of music, learn what works and what doesn't. You have to inspire yourself to be better, not perfect, but your sound and tone should not ever be lacking anything!!)

I don't care what my body feels after I practice. If it hurts, I give it time to rest and recover, meanwhile focusing on what I have to do to get the right sound out of the piano. Of course, joint pain and back pain are an exception, and should never be ignored.

However, women often have a smaller reach on the piano. Thus we must gain strength in the muscle at the side of the palm, under the pinkie, so we can hold those notes with the pinkie, even in stretches of 9ths and 10ths…So muscle pain is usually just a sign that you are doing things to your body that you are not used to doing, and should keep an eye on progress and maintaining the muscle you gain. I say that the overall philosophy is no pain, no gain.

Do you think Richter's hands never hurt? He didn't count rehearsals as practice. After playing a 4 hour rehearsal, he would still have to practice.


Just be careful and do what you have to do.

And honestly, if the speed doesn't quite happen yet, I would give it a couple more months of hard work but with plenty of rest. Why don't you work on something else that is fast, just to get some more distance sprinting type of training under your fingers?

[Bob]

Rehearsals don't count as practice.