last op 64 no 2 Waltz, I promise

[hardy_practice]

A couple of nuances added for the more sensitive critic:

Won't pretend it doesn't have its mistakes but I'm done for now.

[maestroanth]

I like it. There's kind of a nice simplicity about your style.

I have a side comment about the look of your hands. I didn't know if I should post it on youtube or here, but your hands look kind of 'weird' when hitting the notes.  I'm not saying it's necessarily right or wrong but just different. Usually, I position my wrists on the same level as the keyboard with my knuckles curving my fingers/hand up (like holding an invisible stress ball). Your hands seem to come from the top and sometimes and I'm not sure if I'm seeing the finger striking a note, but I hear the note, so I guess you're striking it, lol.  Is there some sort of physical trait with your hands that makes them look like that?

Oh well, I play with my fingers pretty high, so I'm a total contrast to you in that regard,

Have a good day!

[hardy_practice]

Hey, thanks for that.  My hand/fingers are relaxed - I kind of bob the keys down with my nail joint.  That's at least what it feels like.   Also, I drop weight into them for accents.

[nyiregyhazi]

The lack of movement may also explain why so many notes fail to sound cleanly or at all in many cases. You need to learn to be more positive first and then reduce the speed but not the intensity of movement- so every key is felt clearly against the keybed, as Lhevine said.

At the moment, the third beat is close to, or often literally absense in the piu mosso. There's no distinguishable difference between where Chopin writes a note and where he introduces a rest. Clarity and positivity of action is an essential precusor to controlled softness (and indeed to achieving softness at all, in the pp)

[nyiregyhazi]

following up from that, this post speaks of Cherkassky's methods for achieving meaningfully controlled soft playing and also offers objective proof as to why half-hearted actions can never lead to fine control of softer sounds. Everything must be positive for fine control and done with complete intent- as you'll see in the film of Cherkassky playing the Swan with extremely obvious and deliberate finger actions (while achieving the softest whisper as a result).

https://pianoscience.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/the-mechanics-of-chaos-vs-mechanics-of.html

[hardy_practice]

following up from that, this post speaks of

bullshit!

[nyiregyhazi]

bullshit!

Then play pianissimo and with control without first doing as Cherkassky does. Or at least start by posting a video where there aren't numerous written notes that fail to sound altogether, due to the sheer repression and negativity of your movements. When you succeed, you'll be in a position to call bullshit. In the very first bar, your third beat already features missing notes due to the droop of inert motionless fingers that sag under the arm- and that's to say nothing of the numerous omissions in the piu mosso l.h. You really need to change your approach, if you think that's any way to play. Your results and your method are in perfect harmony. As I say in the post, it's simple chaos theory. Employing movements that have a high margin of error yield results with a high margin of error.

[hardy_practice]

I think you'll find my one vid is worth more than all the thousands of words of psuedo-science you've spouted.  Bullshit vs music?  Music wins every time.  

[nyiregyhazi]

I think you'll find my one vid is worth more than all the thousands of words of psuedo-science you've spouted.  Bullshit vs music?  Music wins every time.  

If you want put some music against music then feel free to:

Wherever you might fancy shifting the goalposts to, I was actually explaining how a pianist might have some control over sound, so as to produce music according to your actual intentions. If I were for some reasoning wishing to "compete" vs. your music then I'd make some music. And while I don't share your delusions of grandeur, hopefully with as few unintentional accents/silent notes as possible, thanks to the studies I've made of what offers me the most control over the sound. If you think I did that for any other reason than music, I'd be interested to know what reason that might be.

[hardy_practice]

A vid of this waltz or something related I'd understand.  God knows what that is!?

[nyiregyhazi]

A vid of this waltz or something related I'd understand.  God knows what that is!?

Sorry, I'm not going to engage in response to such cheap shots. Have a battle with someone else.

[hardy_practice]

Sorry, I'm not going to engage in response to such cheap shots. Have a battle with someone else.

That's rich, coming from you!

[dima_76557]

A couple of nuances added for the more sensitive critic:

Won't pretend it doesn't have its mistakes but I'm done for now.

I'll limit my comment to the piu mosso parts again and I won't repeat what I said about the physical execution of the passages.

While I notice remarkable improvements in the other parts, the piu mosso hasn't really improved. I think the main reason is actually strictly musical: Those passages should sound as if you improvised them yourself on the spot. For the time being, they sound learned, forced and (therefore) irregular, as if they are not your own. You don't seem to participate actively in the recreation of this most wonderful music. Improve that and the technical stuff will solve itself.

[hardy_practice]

On all of that I think I agree.  Especially how the musical will always overcome the technical.` The pui mosso isn't art yet - it's a bit clattery.

edit:  I realize now how the pui mosso needs to be.  mf/mp  first 8 bars followed by pp next 8 BUT bringing out the thumb tune.  The thumb tune turns it into music.  Here's what I mean, a little poor I'm afraid.

[hardy_practice]

Oh, I get it - it's the master himself!  Fingers look like a handful of unruly snakes.   As for the elbows, you want to be careful you don't take someone's eye out with 'em!

[nyiregyhazi]

Oh, I get it - it's the master himself!  Fingers look like a handful of unruly snakes.   As for the elbows, you want to be careful you don't take someone's eye out with 'em!

How telling that your comments relate exclusively to visual and conceptual issues, without a single reference to the sound. What was that sanctimonious comment you made about how music comes before words again? I have no delusions of grandeur, but if you insist on a contest we'll compare like with like, thankyou. It's very little surprise that your piu mosso is not improving, as the only time concepts have value is when they aid execution of an intended sound. Your concepts are just concepts and you don't demand any level of results from them before preaching them as gospel.

The thumb idea is an old tradition used by rachmaninoff godowksy and others in the middle statement of the b section. However, the first thing you need to do is observe Chopin's long accent signs in a musical phrase. The trick is to feel the first three quavers being articulated almost as a separate voice and fade the next ones in. Only with that foundation in lightening can the thumb projection work, as a variant. Without the ability to fade to ppp it'll just sound like a hard syncopation. Also, I wouldn't put it in so early. There are numerous things to be found before using the thumb trick so early in the game. I'd do one with much pedal first and then a dry one, saving the thumb for the middle statement.

[hardy_practice]

How telling that your comments relate exclusively to visual and conceptual issues,

Struth, ya don't think I had the sound on, do ya?!  A 5 second visual is enough - believe you me.

[nyiregyhazi]

Struth, ya don't think I had the sound on, do ya?!  A 5 second visual is enough - believe you me.

Yes, I believe entirely that you're a hypocritical buffoon who can criticise based on externals but can't follow up with any worthy musical criticism.

[hardy_practice]

Yes, I believe entirely that you're a hypocritical buffoon who can criticise based on externals but can't follow up with any worthy musical criticism.

You can't play wobbling your fingers about that way!  There are some things that don't require listening to advise upon.  It would seem I can neither get past the first line of a post of yours nor the first seconds of a performance before the ludicrous raises its head - going any further would be senseless.   Calling me names is hardly going to change that.

[nyiregyhazi]

You can't play wobbling your fingers about that way!  There are some things that don't require listening to advise upon.  It would seem I can neither get past the first line of a post of yours nor the first seconds of a performance before the ludicrous raises its head - going any further would be senseless.   Calling me names is hardly going to change that.

So after saying:

"I think you'll find my one vid is worth more than all the thousands of words of psuedo-science you've spouted.  Bullshit vs music?  Music wins every time."  

you are now unable to write a solitary word with regard to music? Not a word on sound after the sanctimonious lecture? Music is supposed to win according to you- so try levelling your criticisms on a musical level, rather than on the external (or bullshit, or as you put it). Small wonder your piu mosso is a mess. The only concepts that matter are those that contribute to musical results- yet you can only judge others and yourself on concepts rather the success of the sounds they lead to. If you start referencing and judging concepts against the music they produce, you'll start to get a meaningful idea about which ones are actually worthy.

Before a pianist is willing to go slow and assess their success in controlling EVERY sound, no concept in the world will have a musical or technical value. The only value a concept can have is of assisting control of sound. If you fail to make any attempt at connection, they are truly worthless.

[hardy_practice]

So after saying:

"I think you'll find my one vid is worth more than all the thousands of words of psuedo-science you've spouted.  Bullshit vs music?  Music wins every time."  

you are now unable to write a solitary word with regard to music? Not a word on sound after the sanctimonious lecture?

Well, got two lines down this time!  Progress of a sort I suppose.  I wouldn't call my two lines a lecture!?  Besides, I think you'll find your wobbly fingers on the bullshit side of the vs.

[amytsuda]

I love Chopin, so I listened to your video. It reminded of my trip to Warsaw. This piece is actually really difficult to me. Among his Valse, Op 18, Op 34 No 1, Op 42 may be technically more difficult, but they are quite obviously waltz and they are easier for me.

Op 64 No 2 got so much emotion and particularly Piu Lento section almost doesn't feel like waltz. I think you captured the feeling of being Waltz really well, in a very simple manner. So I was thinking to ask my question, and then, read the threads. You guys intimidate me - I am an amateur in mid-40 who simply loves playing piano, even though my playing is quite horrible beyond your imagination. 

I just wanted to ask, can you share how you guys develop your inspiration on a piece like this? Is there a rule which beat to emphasize on waltz?

By the way I think you have a wrong note at the end of Piu Lento section, it should be all D-flat, I think you are going up from A-flat to D-flat or something (I am not in front of piano, so I may be wrong). I do agree with Piu Mosso section with everyone else, it lost it there - maybe it needs a bit more elegance...like everyone is turning around with a beautiful long dress on the dance floor. The last note C# needs to be voiced maybe. But I can't play it anything like you do myself, so my advice is not important....

[hardy_practice]

High praise indeed!  Thanks. I think you're right about the wrong note - that's memory for you!  If you want advice I'd start with making the left hand third beat always lighter than beat 1 or 2.  Also I love an extreme decrescendo from bar 1 to 2 - it gives a perfect legato that way (Cortot obviously found that too).  The real trick, which Chopin would have been well aware of, is the bar 3 rhythm - needs you to throw your hand at the keyboard (use of arm weight).  

[goldentone]

Also I love an extreme decrescendo from bar 1 to 2 - it gives a perfect legato that way (Cortot obviously found that too).  The real trick, which Chopin would have been well aware of, is the bar 3 rhythm - needs you to throw your hand at the keyboard (use of arm weight).  

As long as it's natural.

[hardy_practice]

As long as it's natural.

Gravity's your friend.

[amytsuda]

Thank you for your advice. I will try your inputs and see if I can make myself sound a bit better! 

Please keep posting more Chopin!

[nyiregyhazi]

Well, got two lines down this time!  Progress of a sort I suppose.  I wouldn't call my two lines a lecture!?  Besides, I think you'll find your wobbly fingers on the bullshit side of the vs.

I don't care about what you think of externals. If you have nothing to say about how this manifests itself as a problem in the sound (after your preaching about how music matters, not bullshit) then there is nothing to discuss- except what staggeringly transparent hypocrisy you are guilty of.

To the other poster, gravity is not your friend if you attempt to get it to compensate for lifeless fingers. The absence of healhy, positive finger action is why scarcely a single third beat is actually present in the piu mosso. Gravity can potentially be used to contribute, but the way to achieve control over waltz figurations is to include genuine finger action- not to expect gravity to do it all. Inactive fingers mean erratic results. I recommend sliding the thumb forwards while drawing the fingers backwards, in a very positive manner. At any dynamic, this kind of positive action will increase control.

[maestroanth]

Hey, thanks for that.  My hand/fingers are relaxed - I kind of bob the keys down with my nail joint.  That's at least what it feels like.   Also, I drop weight into them for accents.

That sounds hard to do.  Is that a legitimate technique in piano pedagogy?  I tried bending my joints that way and it kinda hurts haha.  It almost seems like 'plucking' the piano keys like a guitarist would with strings, if that is a sound analogy?  It's kinda interesting nonetheless.

Best!
-Anth

[hardy_practice]

That sounds hard to do.  Is that a legitimate technique in piano pedagogy?  I tried bending my joints that way and it kinda hurts haha.  It almost seems like 'plucking' the piano keys like a guitarist would with strings, if that is a sound analogy?  It's kinda interesting nonetheless.

Best!
-Anth

It starts with Bach. 

Here's Quantz:
Moreover, in the performance of such rapid passages, the fingers should not be suddenly raised; their tips should rather be slid up to the forward end of the key, and thus withdrawn, for this will ensure the clearest possible execution of the runs.

Forkel:
and that in such a manner that the finger be not raised perpendicularly from the key, but that it glide off the forepart of the key, by gradually drawing back the tip of the finger towards the palm of the hand.

But the tradition goes all the way up to Debussy.  Trouble is it's quite difficult with today's deeper keydip and heavier action.
 

[dima_76557]

It starts with Bach.  

Such a touch exists even in the more "traditional" schools, but it is among the advanced techniques, after the pianist has mastered the basics thoroughly.

Also, Roy Holmes (no need to cite his credentials, I think), who wrote a book about it called "New Dynamic Finger Power" gives the underlying mechanics quite a different explanation although he quotes the same sources. Yes, the fingertip moves inward, but the touch itself is still initiated within the palm of the hand (the knuckle bridge). No arm weight whatsoever, even on our instruments:

PIANO POWER: John O'Conor hails first Irish book on piano technique
Wrong view?

P.S.: I saw Mr. Holmes at one of his concerts and he doesn't seem to have technical trouble with anything. But then, maybe the key to that is not this particular fingernail joint movement but musical development and artistic thinking?

[hardy_practice]

PIANO POWER: John O'Conor hails first Irish book on piano technique

Yes, that's the technique.  You'll find it's quite rare (most players poke from the knuckle) but I teach and use it as the default - for accents you need arm weight and that's a totally different coordination.  I disagree about wrist height.  There's no set one.  The wrist adjusts itself in a trice as required - that is after all it's function.  Also, I don't agree any of the movement comes from the knuckle.  Also, he simplifies force - obviously something applies force to the keyboard!  - that's where the arguments start.  And they will!!!  Read my blog.  No, read my blog! 

[nyiregyhazi]

It starts with Bach.  

Here's Quantz:
Moreover, in the performance of such rapid passages, the fingers should not be suddenly raised; their tips should rather be slid up to the forward end of the key, and thus withdrawn, for this will ensure the clearest possible execution of the runs.

Forkel:
and that in such a manner that the finger be not raised perpendicularly from the key, but that it glide off the forepart of the key, by gradually drawing back the tip of the finger towards the palm of the hand.

But the tradition goes all the way up to Debussy.  Trouble is it's quite difficult with today's deeper keydip and heavier action.
 

Are your runs clear? No. So you're doing it wrong. Why are you quoting this when you don't even begin to do what they describe? You have your head in the clouds if you sincerely think your movements match this. If you aren't willing to listen to anyone else's advice then try actually listening to your own instead, rather than merely saying it. This method can work IF you actually move your fingers this way rather than shove your arm down with next to no finger movement at all (as is currently the case). You can't chop and choose. Take the advice exactly as written and follow it. To do so, you will need to make room for the knuckle to rise rather than be crushed down as on your films.

 If the knuckle does not rise, something is repressing the natural reaction, be it stiffness, excessive weight or excessive arm pushing. Once it rises, you'll actually start connecting finger and arm for the first time- not via droopping weight but by a sense of length. It can't rise at the moment because you're both too stiff and pressing down- which is why there's next to no finger movement in evidence and no freedom to include any. Watch how Roy holmes uses the method. When he does it, it actually matches those descriptions - because his arm makes enough to make room for the finger to do just that without being burdened or getting trapped. It's not a strength issue or about action weight. The thing resisting you is your very own muscles and weight. Your body is not making space for movement, which is why your fingers provide next to none.

Go slow enough to enough to actually follow that advice that you're preaching and you'll learn something. Alternatively, you can just live in denial by insisting that you are doing everything just fine (even though the musicql result is far from fine) and continue to make no progress whatsoever with the piu mosso.


PS. They state nowhere that the tip should be drawn back via the weakest tiny joint. That's your assumption and one that is not yielding results. Nothing says the knuckle shouldn't participate.

[hardy_practice]

If you can edit that down a couple of lines and only one or two snide remarks I may just read it.

[swagmaster420x]

you  have students??? are they paying you???

[hardy_practice]

you  have students??? are they paying you???

I take it that's a cheap jibe?  Sure.  I have qualifications from University of London, Roehampton Uni and ABRSM (diploma in performances).  And that despite starting in my 30's with 3 years of crap teachers.  I was in my 40's before I found a genuine master.  No such luxury as childhood lessons here - those punching their weight around here want to consider themselves fortunate indeed!

My students do well in their exams - all the way up to grade 8!

[nyiregyhazi]

If you can edit that down a couple of lines and only one or two snide remarks I may just read it.

Sure, do whatever it takes to protect yourself from noticing that you're too stubborn to even follow what you preach yourself, never mind anyone else's advice. Hiding from reality is a great path to progress, when things aren't improving.  

Having varied between thinking about forward paths in the fingers and those that slide backwards, I returned to what those sources describe today, while practising Kreisleriana. It made a notable improvement in the quality of articulation and clarity in many places. But the reason why it worked is because I started slowly and checked both that I was actually doing it and that I was in command of the sound. I also made a point of noticing any moments where the fingers jammed and made sure to allow the knuckle to make room for the movement to continue. The method is a dead end if you don't make room to actually employ the movement.

[hardy_practice]

You've lost me.  You sliding fingers forward or backward now?  Not that it matters - you say potato...

[nyiregyhazi]

You've lost me.  You sliding fingers forward or backward now?  Not that it matters - you say potato...

Both and neither. Whatever works is fine. The important part is not jamming, but creating space for confident and positive finger movement- ie. not jamming into a collision and then running into retreat by relaxing after it's already too late to prevent the damage of jamming up. Watch Cherkassky in action on youtube in the Swan and you'll see how positive competent pianists are. That's because they make room for the reaction, hence no collisions to fear. The finger action can last as long as you please when you make room for it. Miniature repressed prods are a hopeless basis for controlling tone. And the fingers are SO inactive in your piu mosso that they scarcely even quality as that, never mind as the type of movement you are quoting.

[hardy_practice]

Here's a bit of where you see Cherchassky's hands:

There's no need for any histrionics. (it's just a harmless affection of Cherchassky: see 50 secs in   [ Invalid YouTube link ] )  It's good for my sight reading - I'll do some more work on it.

[nyiregyhazi]

Here's a bit of where you see Cherchassky's hands:

There's no need for any histrionics. (it's just a harmless affection of Cherchassky: see 50 secs in   [ Invalid YouTube link ] )  It's good for my sight reading - I'll do some more work on it.

Histrionics no. VOICING yes. Your playing has little to none. You're typically not doing the movement you speak of in the slightest (not even on the melodic notes, which are not given any melodic depth of resonance). If you want to achieve something, start by going slow enough to actually move the fingers in the way you spoke of (making room for the arm to respond to their reactions and connect up, rather than stiffen against them) and expecting voicing. The trick is to move slowly but confidently and positively- not to do quick stilted pokes or arm shoves. In particular, the 2nd semiquaver must be soft without fail, so it doesn't seize attention off the melodic note. There is nothing to be learned from practising this piece as if the elaborations are part of a single voice.

You'll be in a position to comment on whether it's unnecessary for Cherkassky to move that way when you've achieved the first steps of distinguishing melody and accompaniment via tonal control. Without expecting these things from yourself, how can you possibly understand the first thing about why a master of voicing played as he did?

I played it myself years back, although I'd aim for far more distinction still (with lighter accompaniment, rather than merely deeper melody) these days.

[hardy_practice]

You'll be in a position to comment on whether it's unnecessary for Cherkassky to move that way when you've achieved the first steps of distinguishing melody and accompaniment via tonal control.

I do distinguish melody and accompaniment.  I could easily accentuate that - the point is there's no need for extraneous movement.  What Mr Cherchassky does is merely an affectation of the moment.  Not something anyone should build a technique on!

And before I click on any of your links I'd like to know if you are gaining advertising revenue from it - I find that most disingenuous!

[nyiregyhazi]

I do distinguish melody and accompaniment.  I could easily accentuate that - the point is there's no need for extraneous movement.  What Mr Cherchassky does is merely an affectation of the moment.  Not something anyone should build a technique on!

And before I click on any of your links I'd like to know if you are gaining advertising revenue from it - I find that most disingenuous!

If you want a listener to hear a melody and accompaniment, you'll have a far easier time learning to actually differentiate them than in trying to use words to make them listen differently. Remember your words about music over bullshit. Cherkassky created his sound through putting the effort in musically- not through deluding himself that if he writes bullshit about how he differentiates between melody and accompaniment then anyone will else will hear such an effect.

If you think you'll get more out of telling people how well you do things rather than learning to do them well, by all means continue criticising Cherkassky's technique while achieving 0.01% of what he achieved from it. And continue preaching a methodology that you completely fail to abide by (thanks to a near absence of finger movement), while slagging off one of the most tonally accomplished pianists in history for actually moving his fingers as your sources describe.

But then, who needs to be consistent when you can simply tell people who hear monotonous playing to hear something interesting? After all, it's all about the music...

PS. If you don't want me to earn 2p from your visit, then skip any adds that should appear, like 99% of people already do.

[hardy_practice]

If you can't hear it then I suggest you consult your GP.

[nyiregyhazi]

If you can't hear it then I suggest you consult your GP.

Yes, blame everyone else. It's far easier to tell the world at large how to listen than to actually try improving your standard. Rather than a doctor, I think I'll consult Cherkassky for an idea of what differentiation between melody and accompaniment sounds like, thanks. If my doctor thinks what you are doing is adequate then that's up to him, but I'll stick with those who expect better.

[hardy_practice]

Yes, blame everyone else.

And now you're everyone else!?  I knew you had delusions of grandeur but...

[nyiregyhazi]

And now you're everyone else!?  I knew you had delusions of grandeur but...

If you think the default assumption would be that the rest of the world would be hear distinction between voices, you are not living on this planet. Try LISTENING to Cherkassky again and then compare to your sound. The primary difference is not in his melody but in the sheer softness of the competing accompaniment. It's small wonder that your piu mosso is quite so poor when you cannot hear the difference.

[hardy_practice]

Try LISTENING to Cherkassky again and then compare to your sound.

I'm not your mum, so don't have to do what you say!  Cut the crap!

[nyiregyhazi]

I'm not your mum, so don't have to do what you say!  Cut the crap!

No, it's just that anyone who values music over bullshit would do so of their own volition. What do you think Cherkassky would have ended up sounding like if he told Hofman to get his ears tested, whenever he asked him to exaggerate musical voicing? A "that'll do" attitude gets you nowhere in pianism. Success comes from raising your standards, not demanding that others lower theirs.

[hardy_practice]

Try LISTENING to Cherkassky again and then compare to your sound...What do you think Cherkassky would have ended up sounding like if he told Hofman to get his ears tested, whenever he asked him to exaggerate musical voicing?

Firstly I'm an experienced musician/teacher and do not have to listen twice - I know what I heard. Secondly I think if Hofmann asked for exaggerated voicing I'd oblige, but for some jumped up nobody who thinks he's everybody, I think I'll leave it out.  My voicing's fine as it is and certainly any exaggeration would not require your contortions! .

[hardy_practice]

I'm done.