Anyone tried brain training apps?

[Bob]

Worthwhile?  Any specific app/software titles?

Any results that transfer? 

What about dual N-back? 

[faulty_damper]

No. 

They don't have long-term benefits and the benefits don't transfer to other areas.  The reason is that it's too simple and only targets a very small part of the brain with no recruitment of other areas.  It's better to buy a PS4 and play those games as they do provide long-term benefits and can be transferred to other areas.

In fact, what's better than playing video games is having conversations with random strangers.  Social interaction works the brain the most due to the requirements of perceiving the others' intentions, speaking, listening, looking, observing, anticipating, evaluating ally or threat...

[mjames]

HOLY sh*t DUDE YOURE BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[swagmaster420x]

In fact, what's better than playing video games is having conversations with random strangers.  Social interaction works the brain the most due to the requirements of perceiving the others' intentions, speaking, listening, looking, observing, anticipating, evaluating ally or threat...

i think that's really interestiing. I have a feeling it might be true in the ways you described.

[cwjalex]

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[cwjalex]

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[cwjalex]

omg sorry for the triple post, not sure what happened. anyways,

I am not convinced social interaction always works the brain the most.  Many people are able to do this subconsciously and don't have to exert much conscious effort since social interaction is something we are all used to engaging in often.  There are also many people who are unable to achieve a high level of social interaction or don't care to so they would not be using the brain much.  For example, people high on autism spectrum would not use the brain nearly as much for social interaction.  

I don't know much about brain apps but the way to challenge your brain is to force yourself to problem solve.  Avoid routine and do new things constantly to force your brain to make new connections.

As far as hand eye coordination I think a lot of different activities transfer.  It really is all the same skill of hand eye coordination, dexterity, and speed.

[dima_76557]

I am not convinced social interaction always works the brain the most.

+1

Social skills and intelligence don't necessarily go together. The more "average" you are in everything, the better your social skills are likely to be.

Still, human interaction can be very effective as a learning tool, for example:
- verbalization of very difficult concepts into something simple to understand for others
and
- cooperation with other people to solve real-world tasks

I would prefer that greatly to some abstract "brain apps" that isolate you from the real world.

[swagmaster420x]

0
As far as hand eye coordination I think a lot of different activities transfer.  It really is all the same skill of hand eye coordination, dexterity, and speed.

this is good for playing league of legends

[swagmaster420x]

+1

 The more "average" you are in everything, the better your social skills are likely to be.

Yeah, I think I have noticed this too. At least, from the perspective that people are able to stand out in their achievement for a subject because they don't have the mindset of trying to adapt themselves into how other people generally are. That mindset is good for social skills, though.

[Bob]

I was wondering what brain training apps are training to achieve.  Expand the working memory?  If you could hold 9 digits in mind before, you could push that to 10?  Would it transfer to everything?  Would you even be aware of a difference like that?  What would it feel like?

Or maybe just focusing in on something would help.  Except I've thought music is probably a great challenge for the brain.  There's always more to do with music.  Why bother with a little brain training app?


How do you know it works?
And what are the results that transfer?  What's the payoff?   
That's mainly what I'm wondering.

[dima_76557]

@ Bob

Here is a link to how N-Back (the free open-source version is called "Brain Workshop") works + an account of the author's personal progress:
https://jakubmarian.com/what-is-dual-n-back-and-my-personal-progress/

If you don't like reading much before getting the gist of it:
* N-Back is designed to increase your working memory by requiring you to remember independent sequences and pressing corresponding keys;
* It prevents you from remembering the info you get in "chunks";
* Once you reach a certain level, even if you don't play often, your level doesn't seem to go down;
* The author of the article states that N-Back works and that general ability in other activities where good working memory is required increases noticeably.

[Bob]

I think N-Back has real studies done on it and there might be something there.

I suppose ability to focus (narrow vs. broad) and willpower might be useful too.  And controlling habit.  Speed.  Long term memory, although that's not what these apps seem to focus on.

[faulty_damper]

@ Bob

Here is a link to how N-Back (the free open-source version is called "Brain Workshop") works + an account of the author's personal progress:
https://jakubmarian.com/what-is-dual-n-back-and-my-personal-progress/

If you don't like reading much before getting the gist of it:
* N-Back is designed to increase your working memory by requiring you to remember independent sequences and pressing corresponding keys;
* It prevents you from remembering the info you get in "chunks";
* Once you reach a certain level, even if you don't play often, your level doesn't seem to go down;
* The author of the article states that N-Back works and that general ability in other activities where good working memory is required increases noticeably.

I can immediately tell you that those claims are completely false.  Those claims contradict what we know about how the brain works.

Further, here's a recent article summarizing the research on brain-training games:
Neuroscientists speak out against brain game hype
https://news.sciencemag.org/brain-behavior/2014/10/neuroscientists-speak-out-against-brain-game-hype?hootPostID=845e3d071203e1c1823ccc6c32bb8276

[pianoplunker]

No. 

They don't have long-term benefits and the benefits don't transfer to other areas.  The reason is that it's too simple and only targets a very small part of the brain with no recruitment of other areas.  It's better to buy a PS4 and play those games as they do provide long-term benefits and can be transferred to other areas.

In fact, what's better than playing video games is having conversations with random strangers.  Social interaction works the brain the most due to the requirements of perceiving the others' intentions, speaking, listening, looking, observing, anticipating, evaluating ally or threat...

Good point about conversing with strangers, but that will only make you street-smart. Certainly not a bad thing but still a limited part of the brain. You can be street-smart yet poor at memorizing for example. Unless you start memorizing stranger's names.

[faulty_damper]

I was wondering what brain training apps are training to achieve.  Expand the working memory?  If you could hold 9 digits in mind before, you could push that to 10?  Would it transfer to everything?  Would you even be aware of a difference like that?  What would it feel like?

Your short-term memory is set in stone and there is nothing you can do to increase it.  Thus, your short-term digit span cannot be increased without the use of mnemonic devices.  Further, using mnemonic devices to increase short-term digit span does not transfer to any other area.  So even if you can memorize 1,000 digits, it won't help you remember a grocery list.  You'll have to use another set of mnemonic devices to do so.

[faulty_damper]

Good point about conversing with strangers, but that will only make you street-smart. Certainly not a bad thing but still a limited part of the brain. You can be street-smart yet poor at memorizing for example. Unless you start memorizing stranger's names.

Having conversations with strangers doesn't make one street smart.  That is an entirely different area of knowledge and behaviors.

[dima_76557]

I can immediately tell you that those claims are completely false.  Those claims contradict what we know about how the brain works.

Further, here's a recent article summarizing the research on brain-training games:
Neuroscientists speak out against brain game hype
https://news.sciencemag.org/brain-behavior/2014/10/neuroscientists-speak-out-against-brain-game-hype?hootPostID=845e3d071203e1c1823ccc6c32bb8276

I think that does not automatically mean that we should throw the baby away with the bathwater. The article you linked gives another link to a consensus by 70 scientists and there, it is obvious that not all skeptics agree with each other on all points.

Serious research is still warranted in all objectivity without the usual foregone conclusions. While these games may not increase either intelligence or working memory (that's what they promise), they may simply influence the individual's capacity for mental effort which is in itself already an improvement. Being able to perform well under mental pressure, for example, may still lead to a few extra IQ points in a standardized test.

[Bob]

I've perused brain training apps a bit.  Just looking.  Not buying anything.

Looks mostly like apps rather than software.  The software that's out there is older.  Everything shifted to apps several years ago.

Most of those apps seem to be subscriptions rather than buying them once and being done with the purchase.  Maybe they keep updating them or they just want to bring in more money.

It's businesses selling those things.  I'm not seeing a lot that's produced by a scientist or educator.  It's X-Business rather than "Made by ____ University's Neuro-research program."

[Bob]

So if braining training apps just make you better at that app (ie They don't transfer any intelligence).... Then what would?

I'm thinking a concept or philosophy could transfer, if that's intelligence.  Or just the act of trying. 

[cwjalex]

Your short-term memory is set in stone and there is nothing you can do to increase it.  Thus, your short-term digit span cannot be increased without the use of mnemonic devices.  Further, using mnemonic devices to increase short-term digit span does not transfer to any other area.  So even if you can memorize 1,000 digits, it won't help you remember a grocery list.  You'll have to use another set of mnemonic devices to do so.

this is not true.  your short term memory can be developed and there are many proven methods.  a very popular and ancient method is the method of loci, or "memory palace".  i use this method, which is basically just combining a visual component to what you are trying to remember.  i can comfortably remember hundred item lists or sequences this way.  you can't instantly do it though, you need to spend quite a bit of time training your ability to visualize.  there are memory competitions where people can memorize the order of a dozen decks of cards in a half an hour.  many of these people used to have a normal memory but trained and developed their memory to be able to do these tasks.

an experiment was conducted where one group of people were asked to remember a guy's name baker and another group of people were asked to remember baker, as in the profession.  researchers found that after being asked to recall the word after several months many many more people were able to remember the profession as opposed to the name.  the reason being is the way we process and store information into memory.  people were able to easily remember a baker because they knew other pieces of info. they could associate with a baker.  they could visualize him/her, perhaps think of bread, maybe think of the smell.  when a person is asked to remember the name baker it is a piece of information that is in isolation.  this is the key to why most people don't remember things effectively.  they learn new things as chunks of isolated information rather than connecting it to as many things as they can that they already know.