How long does it take to reach technical limits?

[cwjalex]

i was thinking about this topic while playing guitar but it made me instantly think of its application toward piano since I have been playing the piano for a little over a year now.  I was watching a guitar lesson by satriani where he off-handedly made the comment "speed and technical ability comes fairly quickly...after the first few years you're gonna be as fast as you're ever going to be" i can't even remember what context this was said and the video was about improvisation but this line resonated with me.  

what do you guys think about this statement.  do you guys agree?  first of all i'm sure it only applies to the dedicated people who are putting in at least a couple of hours a day and not meant to be literal.  For me, in guitar I gained probably close to 90% of my technical ability and speed within the first year or two of playing and probably took another decade just to gain another 10%.  I have been playing piano a little over a year now and I hope I'm not already at 80-90% of my technical ability.  it's kind of a depressing thought actually.  i guess that just means I have to work extra hard to continue to improve at the same rate.

[awesom_o]

Music is technique, and technique is music. You won't ever reach your musical limits, as long as you work better and harder each and every day. What kind of guitar playing do you do?

Do you want to play as well as a first-rate concert pianist? If you have someone else providing a roof over your head, the only thing stopping you from eventually achieving that standard is yourself. Of course, no one plays as well as a first-rate concert pianist after playing for only one year or two.
I haven't heard you play, but I doubt very much that you have 80-90% of the technical ability that a first-rate concert pianist has.... Perhaps 8-9%!

On the piano, speed definitely doesn't come quickly.  Music in tempo presto almost never sounds good unless played by an experienced concert pianist.

[cwjalex]

Music is technique, and technique is music. You won't ever reach your musical limits, as long as you work better and harder each and every day. What kind of guitar playing do you do?

Do you want to play as well as a first-rate concert pianist? If you have someone else providing a roof over your head, the only thing stopping you from eventually achieving that standard is yourself. Of course, no one plays as well as a first-rate concert pianist after playing for only one year or two.
I haven't heard you play, but I doubt very much that you have 80-90% of the technical ability that a first-rate concert pianist has.... Perhaps 8-9%!

On the piano, speed definitely doesn't come quickly.  Music in tempo presto almost never sounds good unless played by an experienced concert pianist.

i play all kinds of guitar.  i started when i was elementary school so my taste has changed and evolved quite a bit.  started out as a hardcore metallica fan, got into punk/alternative, then classic rock, then some metal, then some classical guitar and now i play whatever.

im not saying that i reached 80-90% of the technique of a concert pianist.  i am saying that im afraid i may have reached 80-90% of my own limit.  i haven't learned a lot of pieces but i think my technique is about a grade 8.  i can play the 3rd movement of moonlight sonata cleanly at 145 BPM.  teacher recently assigned rach prelude in c sharp minor which i found to be technically easy.  currently learning mozart's k310 which is a lot harder than i thought it would be and i suck at trills and this piece has lots of trills with both hands.

[awesom_o]

You know what they say about Mozart.... it's easy for children and extremely difficult for adults! 310 is particularly wonderful and challenging.

I imagine you will one day play almost as well as a first-rate concert pianist, if your hunger for music is powerful, and your ability to work hard is good.

Do you improvise on piano?

Remember, your technical ability isn't really measured by what pieces you can play. It's measured by how thoroughly you have mastered advanced scale-playing.

Have you mastered formula patterns in all keys, major and minor?

[dima_76557]

"speed and technical ability comes fairly quickly...after the first few years you're gonna be as fast as you're ever going to be"

That is not how it works. The author may mean that it takes so long before you reach your first "speed wall" if you use techniques that are not guided by healthy ergonomic and biomechanical principles, if you work against your own nervous system, or if music is not part at all of building your "technique", etc.

[nyiregyhazi]

That is not how it works. The author may mean that it takes so long before you reach your first "speed wall" if you use techniques that are not guided by healthy ergonomic and biomechanical principles, if you work against your own nervous system, or if music is not part at all of building your "technique", etc.

Well, I don't think that's what he meant from the words. He's simply wrong. It seems pretty clear what he's saying- although obviously he learned very quickly himself. I certainly wouldn't take what he speaks as being normal.

[m1469]

I truly think of "technical limits" to mean an ability to relay a message (through music/playing).  In that sense, I don't believe there are set limits in the world.  But, if we talk about our physique getting into the way of that, then it can be any moment throughout the entire spectrum when a person either does not have enough information to support the musical message, or the concept of playing is clouded enough by useless-to-the-musical-idea information that the musical concept doesn't get relayed or stays trapped inside of a person.  

For example(s), a person can be limited because they don't know anything about the piano.  Or, on the other extreme, a person can be limited because they believe virtuosity is the end goal in and of itself.

[goldentone]

Don't be discouraged--don't translate guitar into the piano in the technical realm anyway.  I've never heard any pianist, professional or aspiring, say that after such a period you will reach your technical limit.  The more time you are at the piano, the faster you will improve your technique, of course.  I recommend practicing some exercises from Part II of Hanon daily.  They are quite magical.

I truly think of "technical limits" to mean an ability to relay a message (through music/playing).  

We might wonder to the expansion of a previous concept of sheer physical ability, whose goal is to break the bounds of ivory gravity, alchemized into a more natural meta-concept, into one of a "vocabularized" vehicle that can accommodate the *idee fixe* most requisitely.    

[m1469]

goal is to break the bounds of ivory gravity

No.  The goal is to utilize it to its fullest capacity.

[flashyfingers]

I've often wondered if this was the case (each person is born with a certain amount of technical ability). No, I don't believe this is true. Piano technique is lots of things, not just musical means, but also agility and reflexes. If you have talent for the instrument, you can be taught how to develop your piano-playing muscles in your hands, hand flexibility and pianistic instincts. All this is not only taught and learnt, but also developed. You need to do proper training in order to develop the hand coordination (strength in arm and hand) that allows you to play faster without tensing up. I like to do a series of tense/stretch/relax exercises. Responding to tension in the proper way is a physical strength. I know lots of people would disagree with me, but I often look at piano practice as a strength and habit building routine. I believe that practicing for longer periods of time is important in order to retain certain physical experiences which build into muscle memory. However, muscle memory is not the only way to play piano and so it is important to be mentally aware of what you are enforcing into your muscle memory, you have to be very focused in your practice. If you do proper things without hurting yourself, you will continue seeing results.

[dima_76557]

I believe that practicing for longer periods of time is important in order to retain certain physical experiences which build into muscle memory. However, muscle memory is not the only way to play piano and so it is important to be mentally aware of what you are enforcing into your muscle memory, you have to be very focused in your practice. If you do proper things without hurting yourself, you will continue seeing results.

Apart from what one can say about musical goals that should be part of the technical development, here are 2 other interesting perspectives:
- Ergonomics and biodynamics: Stress in Piano Playing - What do pianists do?
- Mental control: The neuro-pianist

[flashyfingers]

Apart from what one can say about musical goals that should be part of the technical development, here are 2 other interesting perspectives:
- Ergonomics and biodynamics: Stress in Piano Playing - What do pianists do?
- Mental control: The neuro-pianist

thanks!!

[nyiregyhazi]

- Mental control: The neuro-pianist

Interesting post, but I feel they go way too far in the idea of autopilot. A gymnast need merely replicate. A pianist needs to adapt all manner of things to the moment- especially if playing a concerto. The ability to be aware of details without falling apart is of paramount importance to the ability to be adaptable. They seem far too concerned by the idea that it's about protecting an autopilot, to me. A good performer need to be capable of noticing details OR running more of an autopilot. It's exactly when they can't do the former, that they end up stumbling because they accidentally started thinking about what they are doing. You can't just learn an autopilot and pray not to think about anything by accident. If you really know what you are doing, thinking about a few details within that will never break the whole thing down. They seem to be glorifying the very worst kind of purely automated habit rather than exploring the interactions between multiple aspects that are expected from great performers.

"These scripts should not include any reference to fingering or other fast-scale motor action,"

They're going way outside of their justifiable remit here. Often, concentrating on a particular finger is an excellent way of organising the difference between two initially similar passages that lead in different directions. And I wouldn't put that down as the only time that it's not only acceptable but desirable to think about the fingering during performance.

[michael_student]

I find this thread interesting because I also seemed to hit a technical plateau on guitar.  As an adult, I'm still unable to play things that kids I knew could play many years ago.  I was bad at handwriting and sports, and wondered if I'd just hit my natural limit at guitar technique.  But I had very few lessons and another possibility is that I could have progressed further if I'd found better instruction.

[dima_76557]

Interesting post, but I feel they go way too far in the idea of autopilot. A gymnast need merely replicate. A pianist needs to adapt all manner of things to the moment- especially if playing a concerto.

Yes, but I think that the data do not apply to (difficult) LEARNED repertoire only. What about (jazz) improvisation, for example? [The OP cited a quote specifically about improvising on the guitar]. It seems to me that thinking about which finger goes on what key during a jazz performance will be detrimental for inspiration and the general flow of the music. Part of the preparation should therefore be focused on learning NOT to do that.

[krzyzowski]

Certain high speed technical passages may be limited by cognitive tapping speed which can be tested online. That limit probably can be increased thru conscious practice, however will be ultimately stopped by the physical limits of the brain to finger response time. In attempting to accelerate these motor skills, higher speeds are possible, but co-ordination suffers. Drummers solve this problem with hard practice. These actions differ somewhat from classical scale passage performance as compared to hard and fast piano pounding like rock and boogie.
Technical ability may be limited by tapping speed. Recalling a certain violin teaching regimen, the teacher would determine the the bow speed then decide whether to teach Beethoven or Paganini..

[flashyfingers]

Certain high speed technical passages may be limited by cognitive tapping speed which can be tested online. That limit probably can be increased thru conscious practice, however will be ultimately stopped by the physical limits of the brain to finger response time. In attempting to accelerate these motor skills, higher speeds are possible, but co-ordination suffers. Drummers solve this problem with hard practice. These actions differ somewhat from classical scale passage performance as compared to hard and fast piano pounding like rock and boogie.
Technical ability may be limited by tapping speed. Recalling a certain violin teaching regimen, the teacher would determine the the bow speed then decide whether to teach Beethoven or Paganini..

can you tell me where online this testing can be done?

Does being ambidextrous have anything to do with that?

[dima_76557]

Certain high speed technical passages may be limited by cognitive tapping speed which can be tested online. That limit probably can be increased thru conscious practice, however will be ultimately stopped by the physical limits of the brain to finger response time. In attempting to accelerate these motor skills, higher speeds are possible, but co-ordination suffers.

I wonder what passages that would be. In general, finger dexterity does not depend much on the individual rate of activity of the fingers, trills and tremolos being the exception, but those are doable for virtually everybody. Lack of control over finger sequences is where things go wrong. Instead of speeding up, we should rather slow down the tapping if we ever want to get fluency.

[timothy42b]

I wonder what passages that would be. In general, finger dexterity does not depend much on the individual rate of activity of the fingers, trills and tremolos being the exception, but those are doable for virtually everybody. Lack of control over finger sequences is where things go wrong. Instead of speeding up, we should rather slow down the tapping if we ever want to get fluency.

Yes.
I have read that the famous virtuoso pianists do not have greater raw tapping speed than most of us.  (wish I could find that reference again)  However they are able to control and coordinate far better.

[dcstudio]

I'm older--and I have been playing for quite some time...   I was no where near my capacity for technical prowess and speed after only 2 or 3 years.   IDK...maybe it just came to Joe Satriani that quickly---that's why he is who he is.

as for me-- I still make strides forward, learn new things, and add to my technique--and I have been playing for 45 years.

[gvans]

Pablo Casals, at the age of ninety or so, was asked why he still practiced six hours per day.
He replied, "Because. I am still making progress."

[tdlefler]

I've read many responses, but I think that, like athletes, the response from brain to muscle action, if not learned very early, to where it becomes almost reflex, you are not going to gain a great deal of speed and accuracy later on, this does not mean you cannot become very competent, and you cannot learn the difficult passages, but you will have to play them in a more relaxed "laid back" fashion.

[dima_76557]

Yes.
I have read that the famous virtuoso pianists do not have greater raw tapping speed than most of us.  (wish I could find that reference again)  However they are able to control and coordinate far better.

The first one to conduct research that resulted in such conclusions is Oscar Raif in the late 1890's. You can find that here
https://www.scribd.com/doc/21745511/George-Kochevitsky-The-Art-of-Piano-Playing
on page 18 (page 12 in the book itself). A quote:

The results, obtained from pianists as well as non-pianists, showed that on average, a person could make from five to six movements a second with the second and third fingers, and from four to five movements a second with each other finger. As a rule, educated intelligent people were capable of greater finger agility then people of lower intelligent levels. But trained pianists by no means had greater mobility of the individual fingers than did people who were not pianists. While some persons who had never played the piano could easily make as many as seven movements with one finger in a second, a number of good pianists were able to make only five [...]

One could conclude after reading this that through practice, the first thing we get is better coordination, not more speed in individual fingers.

It is also interesting to note that a "fast" etude like Chopin's op. 10 no 1, played at the indicated tempo (mm. 176) is played at 12 notes per second, divided over 4 fingers, which requires only 3 movements per second per finger, well within the inborn capacity of the average untrained individual. You can check that by setting your metronome to mm. 60 and tap three movements to the beat with each finger (One-two-three, One-two-three, etc.). Piece of cake.

The hunt for speed is quite foolish really. What we really need to do is create a very clear image for the brain of finger sequences, and of course, this should be done rather SLOWLY.

[outin]

It is also interesting to note that a "fast" etude like Chopin's op. 10 no 1, played at the indicated tempo (mm. 176) is played at 12 notes per second, divided over 4 fingers, which requires only 3 movements per second per finger, well within the inborn capacity of the average untrained individual. You can check that by setting your metronome to mm. 60 and tap three movements to the beat with each finger (One-two-three, One-two-three, etc.). Piece of cake. The hunt for speed is quite foolish really.

Thanks for making such an enlightening calculation

It's definitely more about the ability to move from one finger to other than moving the inidividual fingers. How to make that transition fast and fluent enough seems to be quite a challenge though, especially with certain stubborn fingers... and then you also have to move from another position to another accurately, fast and without crashing into the keys in a hurry... sigh...

[dima_76557]

Thanks for making such an enlightening calculation

It's definitely more about the ability to move from one finger to other than moving the inidividual fingers. How to make that transition fast and fluent enough seems to be quite a challenge though, especially with certain stubborn fingers... and then you also have to move from another position to another accurately, fast and without crashing into the keys in a hurry... sigh...

2 things:
1) rules of planned ergonomics and biomechanics which should be learned and applied SLOWLY enough to teach the brain. Here, patience is a virtue.
2) the ability to pre-hear that fast. The more you listen to others and analyze what you hear, the faster you will ultimately be able to catch all the details. Your fingers will simply follow if you learned 1) well enough.

EDIT: Most good media players allow you to slow the music down. All media players also have "rewind" and "pause" buttons. Use them!