I have to agree, Fingering 2 1-2 stretch was problematic and thumb repetition makes it dragged. So Dima seems to have won this battle over Hardy.
Dima would have said the same things about me anyway.
When I watch clips, I rarely criticize people in them, Hardy. I only talk about fingers, thumbs, wrists, arms, keys, etc. because they can't talk back.
Yeh, but you do see stuff that isn't there like my thumb!
Dima, just a reminder I'm still waiting for those 'general rules' from 1833. Chopin, of course, would have ignored them but it may tell us where Fontana's coming from.
19th century: Chopin and LisztThe development of the piano and the presence of virtuoso composer-pianists brought new approaches to the instrument in the 19th century. Liszt was the first to suggest that each finger movement was connected to the arm and that changes in rhythm and expression were inextricably linked to the musician's inner rhythm. Chopin stressed the need to blend hand, wrist, forearm, and arm movements in order to get a richer sound. The arm should have some freedom; joints and muscles should not be stiff. Chopin saw technique as an integral part of music.
A near-contemporary source would be helpful.
It's all in the writings by Mikuli, Eigeldinger, Ekier, Huneker, Cortot and others. I don't feel like bickering over what certain phrases out of context might mean. The outline in my previous post sums it all up quite adequately. Chopin wanted the student to be completely free from tension, but at the same time also highly estimated simplicity.
You couldn't pick some gems out from Mikuli or Huneker? It's just your 5-2; 3-1; 3-1; 5-1; looks awfully Clementi-like to me.
With the difference that the Clementi school would try to do it with a stiff arm. With hindsight, however, we have a huge advantage.I already explained the approach Liszt and Chopin would take with something that looks like "wide stretches": they don't stretch,
True. But neither do they move with fixed shapes - 3-1; 3-1
Actually I think I'm being unfair to Clementi. From my experience Chopin is very much Clementi but with the option of the wrist going up/down and side-to-side. Or really Kalkbrenner with the option of the wrist going up/down and side-to-side. But certainly not a reliance on the pedal.
If you do it the way I explained it, you can do it without pedal and it will sound convincing a tempo, really. The pedal is only supposed to give that little extra brilliance to the sound and should be used rather sparsely.
Same with my fingering. Of course, most is above the dampers anyway!
Your fingering (the 1-2/1-4 part) is dangerously un-pianistic and it takes a very strong mechanism to survive it without injury if the one who tries it is unaware of this and tries to get things up to tempo. If you can do it yourself, that's fine but I would refrain from advising it to others.
You can't do a M6 with 1-2? My fingering uses 4 different fingers for 4 different notes - that's how you play a tune!
Well, if finger 2's your problem stay away from Schubert Impromptus!
I don't have any problems with anything in that respect. I can just imagine other people's problems too well. That's why I warn about this particular fingering for this particular cadenza, the more so since there is a less taxing variant (the "standard" fingering) that was decided upon to be the standard for a good reason.
Chosen by either those who assumed it was Chopin's or those in ignorance of how well he could utilize the wrist.
How do you know it was NOT his? It's simple and Chopin valued simplicity very much. It is also very pianistic and it makes memorizing the passage a breeze.
What's pianistic about playing a tune 53355335533...
Memorizing is about knowing your Dim7's inside out.
Thanks for doing that Amy - Dima would have said the same things about me anyway. Do you realize you are breaking in your nail joints on fingers 3 and 4 very often? I use fingertips to play which makes one's hand calmer so I will persist and post to see the difference - watch this space.
? No, no. The body also needs to experience convenience, otherwise tension occurs, even if we know rationally what we have to play.
I will also try your another suggestion, adlib and 5-2 4-1 4-1 5-2.
Tension only occurs if you let it.
I don't think my fingering will work for someone who doesn't 'grasp' the keys (you can't do that and break nail joints).
No, Hardy, it happens, and many don't even realize it before it's too late.
Amy, there's a way of playing (first described by CPE Bach) where you 'caress' 'wipe' 'scratch' 'grip' the keys.
The feeling is of the nail joint initiating movement.
True. Not true. It is initiated in the palm of the hand and the movement at the nail joint is only a by-product that may or may not occur.
What, you scratch with your palm?! Notice I said it's a feeling. That's the only level required to carry out the touch. I'm not going to get into disputes over physiology (been there, done that).
If your only role here is to advice posters to be wary of web advice then you're pretty much redundant outside of the odd 5 year old!
How serious concert repertoire playing Hummel did 6ths
Apart from the 1-2 my fingering is the same as Hummel's. Chopin with his flexible wrist, and you and I and nearly everyone out there with a flexible wrist have no problems with 1-2. Fontana probably would as the wrist was relaxed but fixed in his day (as it was for Hummel).
P.S.: Could you show us then how it is done in the cadenza op 10 no 3? I don't believe it until I see it happen, but since you are "in the know", it must be quite something.
About time someone else got out of his armchair and did some videos.
Fingering doesn't seem to have come up?!
The topic was already solved but you barge in so that shouldn't be much of a problem since you "know your Dim7's inside out".
Barge in? That's not very welcoming is it?
and I don't know my Dim7's inside out which is why I'm doing this.
Topic: Forearm problems 