Forearm problems

[amytsuda]

I have to agree, Fingering 2 1-2 stretch was problematic and thumb repetition makes it dragged. So Dima seems to have won this battle over Hardy.   

[dima_76557]

I have to agree, Fingering 2 1-2 stretch was problematic and thumb repetition makes it dragged. So Dima seems to have won this battle over Hardy.    

Well, that is never the point or the intention.
P.S.: Canadian citizenship might help to play this piece beautifully; Louis Lortie is Canadian and we have another Canadian on here who also does a terrific job on this etude.

[hardy_practice]

And I'm Canadian!  so all is not lost.

Thanks for doing that Amy - Dima would have said the same things about me anyway.  Do you realize you are breaking in your nail joints on fingers 3 and 4 very often?  I use fingertips to play which makes one's hand calmer so I will persist and post to see the difference - watch this space.

[dima_76557]

Dima would have said the same things about me anyway.  

When I watch clips, I rarely criticize people in them, Hardy. I only talk about fingers, thumbs, wrists, arms, keys, etc. because they can't talk back.

[hardy_practice]

When I watch clips, I rarely criticize people in them, Hardy. I only talk about fingers, thumbs, wrists, arms, keys, etc. because they can't talk back.

Yeh, but you do see stuff that isn't there like my thumb!

[dima_76557]

Yeh, but you do see stuff that isn't there like my thumb!

Correction: stuff that is not directly visible, which doesn't mean it isn't there.
P.S.: Let's not get off-topic with talks about hand arches and how tension in one location blocks something in another location, etc. The waltz topic was already considered closed anyway.


@ Amy:

In the left hand, you still play fingering 1 in the "fingering 2" clip. Are you aware of that? I thought the fingering was meant for both hands. Try it and you'll be in for even more "fun".

P.S.: For those who really can't do the standard 5-2,3-1; 1-3,2-5 thing, here's another suggestion that gets you nothing but "closed" positions, but keep in mind that it goes against Chopin's musical notation (things that are supposed to be slurred can no longer be slurred physically) and it is a way to deliberately AVOID the extremely useful lesson in flexibility and adaptability that Chopin is trying to teach you.

I believe I saw Paul Barton do that in his tutorial clip without explicitly highlighting the topic of fingering in this particular passage. It may also require more brain power to memorize:

[hardy_practice]

Dima, just a reminder I'm still waiting for those 'general rules' from 1833.  Chopin, of course, would have ignored them but it may tell us where Fontana's coming from.

[rmbarbosa]

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Best wishes
Rui

[dima_76557]

Dima, just a reminder I'm still waiting for those 'general rules' from 1833.  Chopin, of course, would have ignored them but it may tell us where Fontana's coming from.

Well, that's what this etude (and all other Chopin etudes!) is all about, otherwise they can't be mastered: https://www.scena.org/lsm/sm5-5/technique-en.htm

19th century: Chopin and Liszt

The development of the piano and the presence of virtuoso composer-pianists brought new approaches to the instrument in the 19th century. Liszt was the first to suggest that each finger movement was connected to the arm and that changes in rhythm and expression were inextricably linked to the musician's inner rhythm. Chopin stressed the need to blend hand, wrist, forearm, and arm movements in order to get a richer sound. The arm should have some freedom; joints and muscles should not be stiff. Chopin saw technique as an integral part of music.

[hardy_practice]

A near-contemporary source would be helpful.

[dima_76557]

A near-contemporary source would be helpful.

It's all in the writings by Mikuli, Eigeldinger, Ekier, Huneker, Cortot and others. I don't feel like bickering over what certain phrases out of context might mean. The outline in my previous post sums it all up quite adequately. Chopin wanted the student to be completely free from tension, but at the same time also highly estimated simplicity.

[hardy_practice]

It's all in the writings by Mikuli, Eigeldinger, Ekier, Huneker, Cortot and others. I don't feel like bickering over what certain phrases out of context might mean. The outline in my previous post sums it all up quite adequately. Chopin wanted the student to be completely free from tension, but at the same time also highly estimated simplicity.

You couldn't pick some gems out from Mikuli or Huneker?  It's just your 5-2; 3-1; 3-1; 5-1; looks awfully Clementi-like to me.

[dima_76557]

You couldn't pick some gems out from Mikuli or Huneker?  It's just your 5-2; 3-1; 3-1; 5-1; looks awfully Clementi-like to me.

With the difference that the Clementi school would try to do it with a stiff arm. With hindsight, however, we have a huge advantage.

I already explained the approach Liszt and Chopin would take with something that looks like "wide stretches": they don't stretch, but they use a "scissors" mechanism - pivots in the center and hinges on the outside. Moreover the slurring in Chopin's notation ("technique is an integral part of the music itself") + the "con bravura" marking suggest that each group (indicated by a slur) is to be initiated with a loose (free from tension that is) hand and the arm behind it.

[hardy_practice]

With the difference that the Clementi school would try to do it with a stiff arm. With hindsight, however, we have a huge advantage.

I already explained the approach Liszt and Chopin would take with something that looks like "wide stretches": they don't stretch,

True.  But neither do they move with fixed shapes -  3-1; 3-1;  My fingering is far more fluid. 

[dima_76557]

True.  But neither do they move with fixed shapes -  3-1; 3-1

But it's not "fixed"! The first 3-1 is the end of one group, played portato. The next 3-1 is the start of a new group. While the hand goes up slightly between the groups, you can relax your hand and "drop" or "sink" into the new interval.
P.S.: There's a masterclass by Katsaris about this etude but it's in French. He demonstrates it all very clearly.

[hardy_practice]

Actually I think I'm being unfair to Clementi.  From my experience Chopin is very much Clementi but with the option of the wrist going up/down and side-to-side.   Or really Kalkbrenner with the option of the wrist going up/down and side-to-side.  But certainly not a reliance on the pedal.

[dima_76557]

Actually I think I'm being unfair to Clementi.  From my experience Chopin is very much Clementi but with the option of the wrist going up/down and side-to-side.   Or really Kalkbrenner with the option of the wrist going up/down and side-to-side.  But certainly not a reliance on the pedal.

If you do it the way I explained it, you can do it without pedal and it will sound convincing a tempo, really. The pedal is only supposed to give that little extra brilliance to the sound and should be used rather sparsely.

[hardy_practice]

If you do it the way I explained it, you can do it without pedal and it will sound convincing a tempo, really. The pedal is only supposed to give that little extra brilliance to the sound and should be used rather sparsely.

Same with my fingering.  Of course, most is above the dampers anyway!

[dima_76557]

Same with my fingering.  Of course, most is above the dampers anyway!

Your fingering (the 1-2/1-4 part) is dangerously un-pianistic and it takes a very strong mechanism to survive it without injury if the one who tries it is unaware of this and tries to get things up to tempo. If you can do it yourself, that's fine but I would refrain from advising it to others.

[hardy_practice]

Your fingering (the 1-2/1-4 part) is dangerously un-pianistic and it takes a very strong mechanism to survive it without injury if the one who tries it is unaware of this and tries to get things up to tempo. If you can do it yourself, that's fine but I would refrain from advising it to others.

You can't do a M6 with 1-2?  My fingering uses 4 different fingers for 4 different notes - that's how you play a tune!

[dima_76557]

You can't do a M6 with 1-2?  My fingering uses 4 different fingers for 4 different notes - that's how you play a tune!

I told you already that I can take a 9th, and if I really try, a tenth between 1-2. But what about the average hand? A sixth is close to the limit of range of motion of most for 1-2. Besides, in your fingering, the second finger and thumb are already overburdened as it is by the repetition required. Add to that the stretch 1-2 and you have a recepy for anatomical disaster because the speed a tempo is about 6 movements or more per second, depending on the artistic view of the pianist.

[hardy_practice]

Well, if finger 2's your problem stay away from Schubert Impromptus!

[dima_76557]

Well, if finger 2's your problem stay away from Schubert Impromptus!

I don't have any problems with anything in that respect. I can just imagine other people's problems too well. That's why I warn about this particular fingering for this particular cadenza, the more so since there is a less taxing variant (the "standard" fingering) that was decided upon to be the standard for a good reason.

[hardy_practice]

I don't have any problems with anything in that respect. I can just imagine other people's problems too well. That's why I warn about this particular fingering for this particular cadenza, the more so since there is a less taxing variant (the "standard" fingering) that was decided upon to be the standard for a good reason.

Chosen by either those who assumed it was Chopin's or those in ignorance of how well he could utilize the wrist.

[dima_76557]

Chosen by either those who assumed it was Chopin's or those in ignorance of how well he could utilize the wrist.

How do you know it was NOT his? It's simple and Chopin valued simplicity very much. It is also very pianistic and it makes memorizing the passage a breeze.

[hardy_practice]

How do you know it was NOT his? It's simple and Chopin valued simplicity very much. It is also very pianistic and it makes memorizing the passage a breeze.

What's pianistic about playing a tune 53355335533...  Memorizing is about knowing your Dim7's inside out.

[dima_76557]

What's pianistic about playing a tune 53355335533...

?

Memorizing is about knowing your Dim7's inside out.

No, no. The body also needs to experience convenience, otherwise tension occurs, even if we know rationally what we have to play.

[amytsuda]

Wow, you guys are still going at it! Do you guys sleep? I am in California, so your time zone can not be that different from mine.

@Dima, I will try Fingering 2 on my left hand too later after I am done with my work..! I will also try your another suggestion, adlib and 5-2 4-1 4-1 5-2. But my conclusion is that there are many options of fingering, and each pianist should choose what is most comfortable to maximize the intended musical expression. For my hands, 5-2 3-1 3-1 5-2 seems the most natural, but may be not for everyone.  

Thanks for doing that Amy - Dima would have said the same things about me anyway.  Do you realize you are breaking in your nail joints on fingers 3 and 4 very often?  I use fingertips to play which makes one's hand calmer so I will persist and post to see the difference - watch this space.

Yes, I do know I am breaking in my nail joints Not just that, I do know my long list of technical problems. I blame on my odd shaped hands as well as my childhood teacher who actually didn't know how to play piano! Only last one year, I am taking a lesson from a real piano teacher, but most teachers are horrified to teach me as I play tons of advanced stuff with horrible techniques with no pain syndrome Let me know if you notice anything else!

[hardy_practice]

?

No, no. The body also needs to experience convenience, otherwise tension occurs, even if we know rationally what we have to play.

Tension only occurs if you let it.

Amy, you play really well!  I don't think my fingering will work for someone who doesn't 'grasp' the keys (you can't do that and break nail joints).  That leaves out a lot of players!  I'm back to work tomorrow, so Dima can get some sleep!

[dima_76557]

I will also try your another suggestion, adlib and 5-2 4-1 4-1 5-2.

With your hands, please, don't. You deserve better. It's musically poor and it was only to show Hardy that I can also think of crazy fingerings if I have too, with the difference that they do not cause injury, not even in someone with small hands.

[dima_76557]

Tension only occurs if you let it.

No, Hardy, it happens, and many don't even realize it before it's too late.

[amytsuda]

I don't think my fingering will work for someone who doesn't 'grasp' the keys (you can't do that and break nail joints).

Hardy, what you say is always full of intrigues. What do you mean by "grasping" keys?

[hardy_practice]

No, Hardy, it happens, and many don't even realize it before it's too late.

True.  But not to those in the know.

Amy, there's a way of playing (first described by CPE Bach) where you 'caress' 'wipe' 'scratch' 'grip' the keys.  The feeling is of the nail joint initiating movement.  Can you do that thing with your fingers that the witch in Wizard of Oz does when she says 'Come to me deary' to Dorothy? - that's more or less it.

[amytsuda]

@Hardy, I see. My teacher is trying to make me do that with my Scriabin (my second favorite composer after Chopin!). I should start a post about Scriabin, color wheel, touch and technique or something!  Anyway, I've got to be back to my work, otherwise I won't have a job for a long time.

[dima_76557]

Amy, there's a way of playing (first described by CPE Bach) where you 'caress' 'wipe' 'scratch' 'grip' the keys.

True.  

The feeling is of the nail joint initiating movement.

Not true. It is initiated in the palm of the hand and the movement at the nail joint is only a by-product that may or may not occur. What you suggest leads to negative curling, the last thing Amy or anybody else here needs.

Here are some clips that explain the technique:

[hardy_practice]

True.  

Not true. It is initiated in the palm of the hand and the movement at the nail joint is only a by-product that may or may not occur.

What, you scratch with your palm?!  Notice I said it's a feeling.  That's the only level required to carry out the touch.  I'm not going to get into disputes over physiology (been there, done that).

[dima_76557]

What, you scratch with your palm?!  Notice I said it's a feeling.  That's the only level required to carry out the touch.  I'm not going to get into disputes over physiology (been there, done that).

I don't want to see the girl's technique get ruined. This is something she should get taught one on one by a very capable teacher, because the risk of misunderstanding is so great that it may ruin her technique. With her physique, she shouldn't "scratch" because it will lead to problems.

[hardy_practice]

If your only role here is to advise posters to be wary of web advice then you're pretty much redundant outside of the odd 5 year old!  Besides, Amy seems to have a competent teacher.

[dima_76557]

If your only role here is to advice posters to be wary of web advice then you're pretty much redundant outside of the odd 5 year old! 

You may first want to practise on your simple Chopin waltz before giving any advice here at all on more serious concert repertoire, don't you think so?

[hardy_practice]

Simple!  Now you've gone and done it.  

[amytsuda]

No worry, I have a more than competent teacher I am now worried to get fired by him if he finds me here. Have a good day guys!

[hardy_practice]

How serious concert repertoire playing Hummel did 6ths

[dima_76557]

How serious concert repertoire playing Hummel did 6ths

Those are natural fingerings in a natural context as can be seen in the whole repertoire, including Hummel's. No 1-2 for sixths there, by the way, or am I missing something again? P.S.: Not even a double-note freak like Moszkowski gives that kind of fingering for virtuoso passages. 1-3 is the limit.

[hardy_practice]

Apart from the 1-2 my fingering is the same as Hummel's.  Chopin with his flexible wrist, and you and I and nearly everyone out there with a flexible wrist have no problems with 1-2.  Fontana probably would as the wrist was relaxed but fixed in his day (as it was for Hummel).  I'm leaving it there, the tone in this thread has gone well down.

[dima_76557]

Apart from the 1-2 my fingering is the same as Hummel's.  Chopin with his flexible wrist, and you and I and nearly everyone out there with a flexible wrist have no problems with 1-2.  Fontana probably would as the wrist was relaxed but fixed in his day (as it was for Hummel).

Yeah well. If being "right" is what you are after, have it your way. No offense, but I worry more about what will become of people who actually take such recommendations seriously.

P.S.: Could you show us then how it is done in the cadenza op 10 no 3? I don't believe it until I see it happen, but since you are "in the know", it must be quite something.

[hardy_practice]

P.S.: Could you show us then how it is done in the cadenza op 10 no 3? I don't believe it until I see it happen, but since you are "in the know", it must be quite something.

About time someone else got out of his armchair and did some videos.

[dima_76557]

About time someone else got out of his armchair and did some videos.

To show the standard everybody does? I have at least a good reason not to show anything because I am still in retraining where avoiding this kind of problems is the main focus.

The focus of the topic right now is about how practicable YOUR fingering is to get artistic results. The topic was already solved but you barge in and suggest (may I say rather sarcastically and with an air of authority) that we "forgot" something:

Fingering doesn't seem to have come up?!

So, that's why I'm asking: show us what your fingering (with or without the "scratching", I couldn't care less) can do to avoid the problems under discussion, preferably without compromising the ultimate artistic result. It's only 8 bars, so that shouldn't be much of a problem since you "know your Dim7's inside out".

[nyiregyhazi]

How serious concert repertoire playing Hummel did 6ths

Congratulations on being quite so ignorant as to misinterpret to conflicting evidence as supporting what it contradicts. The second example is fingered with 4 as it suits both the chunk and the pairing. A fourth plus a third on top suits 245 best. Chopins is a fourth on top of a third which CLEARLY fits 235 best, so only the thumb must move (retaining maximum simplicity). Like and like are not being compared. hummel organises sixths in pairs, exactly as the standard fingering operates (in fitting with the slurs).

I won't post again as this is such an  ignorant point that it doesn't justify discussion. Dima, please don't waste your time with this idiot troll. You know as well as I do that he isn't within lightyears of either playing or understanding this level of repertoire. Rather than bother to argue, just link a film of his standard of attainment. It will discredit his nonsense as surely as any written words.

[hardy_practice]

The topic was already solved but you barge in 

 so that shouldn't be much of a problem since you "know your Dim7's inside out".

Barge in?  That's not very welcoming is it?  and I don't know my Dim7's inside out which is why I'm doing this.

[dima_76557]

Barge in?  That's not very welcoming is it?

Can't help it but that is how it felt. Your tone wasn't exactly elegant if I may say so.

and I don't know my Dim7's inside out which is why I'm doing this.

Oh, OK. But how did you decide then that your fingering will actually work a tempo, the more so for others?