Is slow practice magic?

[bernadette60614]

The subject line is somewhat facetious, but I'm a big fan of Graham Fitch who extolls the value of slow practice.

I find it very hard to practice slowly consistently and I'm wondering if this is something I should just discipline myself to do.

Thanks!

[Bob]

Just another way to practice.

As is "fast practice."  Possibly.  I was just pushing a section of a piece faster than I could really play it.  The mind adjusts eventually.

[dima_76557]

The subject line is somewhat facetious, but I'm a big fan of Graham Fitch who extolls the value of slow practice.

Yes, it is magic provided you know how it is done and if combined with other practice modes.

Since you are a fan, I'll link 2 articles by Mr. Fitch about the subject:
Slow practising: techniques, processes and strategies

More Thoughts on Slow Practising

IMHO, slow practice is really THE best way for both initial note learning and for refining and maintaining what has already been acquired.

[m1469]

It is as magical as you make it!  In some cases, there is no other option even.  

Personally, right now my use is to get a very clear cuing system established in my playing process, as well as having a very clear mental map of positioning and motions at the instrument.  I breeze-read the articles that dima posted and appreciate those, too!  

It is very possible to develop extra weight in slow practice that will need to be taken out when playing at tempo, and though my first points are important, I am currently tending towards using slow practice to get a certain mental map, and then as quickly as possible taking that image and going to fast practice.  So, in Chopin's Etude Op. 10. no. 1, for example, I have read through it to help myself understand what are going to be some key elements in playing it at tempo, as well as getting a sense for the chords that are outlined (naming them in a way that makes sense to me), and then, let's say after one read-through, I already start playing at tempo for as much as possible (and, this will be very small chunks for me).  Once I could do that, I will go back to slow practice to help link the chunks in my mind, but then I'll link the exact spot that brings the chunks together at tempo.  I would build a piece using both slow and at tempo practice "simultaneously" as needed.  

All the while, when I use slow practice, I will have the fast image in my mind while practicing slowly and mentally implant the reminder of how that will physically feel when fast, including making a point to lighten it up.

One of the other traps with slow practicing can be a mistaken idea that there will be times of non-motion in a piece that will actually require constant motion.  It is one thing to practice precise motions from one spot to the next, or to do any kind of practicing which affords oneself non-motion where there will normally be constant motion.  And then it is another to be in constant motion both mentally and physically.  

I might have a student use slow practice in different ways and for different reasons.

[goldentone]

I don't believe one's slow practicing should be painstaking.  We're working, but it should be enjoyable too.  If such slow practice is needed, then the piece is probably beyond our ability, or else a long haul for our learning arch.  My approach to practicing seems to be one of maintaining flow.  Inversely, I'm also fascinated by the science of practicing.  As I refine my practicing, I want to incorporate only the methods that do not take the life out of the piano.

      

[goldentone]

All the while, when I use slow practice, I will have the fast image in my mind while practicing slowly and mentally implant the reminder of how that will physically feel when fast, including making a point to lighten it up.

You seem to have devised a good enterprising method there.  That attracts me.  I have had a similar idea of alternating tempos and rest periods, but in a different *application*, for pieces that are resistant in opening up to the pianist.  Because you can't just mete out your frustration on the instrument with undue harshness.

[dima_76557]

If such slow practice is needed, then the piece is probably beyond our ability, or else a long haul for our learning arch.

The level of accomplishment has nothing to do with it, goldentone. It is a very deep experience to hear all those tones work with and against each other but you need to take the time to experience that. A tempo, often so much is lost, even if we are able to catch the general flow of the music. When you go as slowly as suggested, it can be a fantastic and very enjoyable listening experience, not hard and dull labor at all. All it takes is the courage to do it. It's also partly taming the ego that wants to force superficial results a.s.a.p.

[faulty_damper]

I find it very hard to practice slowly consistently and I'm wondering if this is something I should just discipline myself to do.

Thanks!

You are most likely relying on very limited sets of muscles, thus over-contracting them and creating tension.  This tension must be released, hence the lack of consistency.  It's not a discipline issue, it's a technical problem.

[goldentone]

The level of accomplishment has nothing to do with it, goldentone. It is a very deep experience to hear all those tones work with and against each other but you need to take the time to experience that. A tempo, often so much is lost, even if we are able to catch the general flow of the music. When you go as slowly as suggested, it can be a fantastic and very enjoyable listening experience, not hard and dull labor at all. All it takes is the courage to do it. It's also partly taming the ego that wants to force superficial results a.s.a.p.

I think we have two different intents on parallel planes, Dima.  As one whose labor at the piano has been unduly arduous for certain reasons, I am no stranger to diligence.  I don't believe anyone who knows my playing would suggest it is superficial, as it is easy to interpret.  Neither is my Soulmate's playing, and I'm sure we are on the same ego plane. . .

[dima_76557]

@ goldentone

I may have phrased improperly; I did not mean your ego. I am not trying to convince you of anything; just describing what I think the function of slow practice is.

I just wanted to say that one of the challenges of slow practice (when you know the material already quite well) is that you are one on one with yourself. That's something many tend to walk (or should I say 'run'?) away from. It is the opposite of "trying to be able to". If you can still give meaning to the sounds under such "unsafe" conditions, you make a giant leap forward towards really mastering the piece.

P.S.: Slow practice also works much like a magnifying glass for details in the music that you might otherwise miss.

[indianajo]

Slow practice has sort of amazing results for me.  My teacher always insisted I practice slow enough to make NO MISTAKES.  Sometimes I still use one hand alone on difficult pieces until I'm ready to put them together. After I've played both hand together for a while, I can crank up the speed screw and do things that amaze me, there is no way my cortex can think through the motions that fast.  At the same time, I've pretty well memorized the piece.  
If you're making mistakes in your practice, you are learning the wrong motions IMHO.  Slow down and get it right, unless you are sight reading for a group that is paying you to accompany them.
After the piece is up to speed and memorized, then I can decide emotionally what variations I want  to do with it, speed up, slow down, accent different notes, change phrasing.  I don't really appreciate the piece as the composer intended until I've got the motions down perfectly.  
As far as playing pieces that are too hard for me, well, why not? Life isn't a sight reading contest. I never went for the alphabet soup of certificates.   The good repretoire has some amazing passages in it, you may as well use your time learning to do what you like.  I'm finishing up memorizing Pictures at an Exhibition and am crawling into Passacaglia and Fugue in C min and Rhapsody in Blue. These are attempted after 7 years of $15 a week piano lessons age 8-15, no $$$$$ conservatory degree required.  

[timothy42b]

I am currently tending towards using slow practice to get a certain mental map, and then as quickly as possible taking that image and going to fast practice.  So, in Chopin's Etude Op. 10. no. 1, for example, I have read through it to help myself understand what are going to be some key elements in playing it at tempo, as well as getting a sense for the chords that are outlined (naming them in a way that makes sense to me), and then, let's say after one read-through, I already start playing at tempo for as much as possible (and, this will be very small chunks for me).  

This makes sense but remember you are a very experienced player.

You are able to spot difficulties and foresee how they must be played at speed.

A beginner working slow may very well learn those sections using methods and motions that don't work at all at speed.  So they are going to need more guidance with exactly how they do their slow practice. 

[goldentone]

@ goldentone

I may have phrased improperly; I did not mean your ego. I am not trying to convince you of anything; just describing what I think the function of slow practice is.

I just wanted to say that one of the challenges of slow practice (when you know the material already quite well) is that you are one on one with yourself. That's something many tend to walk (or should I say 'run'?) away from. It is the opposite of "trying to be able to". If you can still give meaning to the sounds under such "unsafe" conditions, you make a giant leap forward towards really mastering the piece.

P.S.: Slow practice also works much like a magnifying glass for details in the music that you might otherwise miss.

I appreciate your reply.  The question is, how slow are we talking?  My problem is it being painstakingly slow.  What I have in mind is what Bernhard espoused in this area, for memorization purposes in his case.  I think such extreme slowness is uncalled for.  I could try this method out to a degree, but as I remember Bernhard said, the slower your pace, the better the results. . . and also torturously hard.  I believe once we reach such a slow tempo, what we're hearing is unnatural, to the point where the music does not cohere anymore.

I wouldn't be averse to trying out your method, which seems meditative.  As you said, it is not integral to the fundamental learning of the piece, but not without benefit.

[timothy42b]

Hardly anybody thinks in detail about what parts of the motion are slow and what parts not.

Nobody I know slows down all parts proportionally. 

For example, it is possible to slow down the key press to the point where the note will not sound even though the key bottoms out. 

That means all slowing has some artificial complications built in. 

[dima_76557]

The question is, how slow are we talking?  My problem is it being painstakingly slow.  

I cannot answer that question for you. As a matter a fact, there is no standard.

If it's something that will eventually be executed as very rapid and heavy chords, for example, then I have no problem waiting for each chord to die out before sounding the next one and just be in the moment, listening to how the sound gradually vanishes.

If it's Bach, I probably won't take it that slow, maybe half tempo, but I could leave out a voice in a 4-part fugue, for example, every time another one, and see how the different parts work against each other, keeping the same fingering, of course.

No hurry, no tension, no thoughts of any future occasion where I will be required to show what I can do with this or that piece, etc.

[timothy42b]

When I practice slowly, I do it in tempo increments.

I play at half speed, quarter speed, eighth speed, etc., as exactly as possible.

YMMV. 

[bronnestam]

I am also a fan of Mr. Fitch ... so of course I use the "slow practice" advice, but also his other advice about "little bits fast" and "skeleton practice" where you start by playing a simplified outline and then refine the details.

Playing a whole piece from beginning to end in an insanely slow tempo is something I don't understand - really, what's the point? A character test? Challenging my patience? If a whole piece is so difficult for me that I have to play it all like an old snail, then I suppose it is beyond my present skill level anyway. If there are any weak spots, however (and there nearly always are ...    ) then I find it natural to isolate those spots and work with them in detail. That is, a very slow tempo to really figure out what I'm doing.

Another little trick is to record myself - the advantage with a digital - and play it back in a much slower tempo. Very revealing! There I can clearly hear my mistakes and then work with them.

I studied classical ballet for nearly two decades. Never that we ran a whole routine through in slow motion! We worked insanely much with very, very tiny details, though, in order to learn exactly how to use our muscles in every single position. I also seriously doubt that singers ever practice their songs in slow motions, or that gymnasts do a whole floor routine in slow motion. It simply does not make sense, and it is many times just impossible as well. But I suppose everyone works with small details in slow motion. When you study a new dance or a longer combination, you "mark" the positions until you have learned the routine, but you don't waste your time and energy trying to perfect the single positions at that stage.

When I try to learn something new OR when I go back to give an old piece some "maintenance", I usually play it HS, and as slow as I need to play it without mistakes. I do not just mean "hitting the right key" but also having the right touch etcetera. Then I play it HT, often with at least one hand doing "skeletons" just to get the synchronization right. And then I refine. I always work with small parts here, because otherwise I lose both time and concentration.

When it comes to fast parts, I usually concentrate on hand positioning at first. You know, I play arpeggios as whole chords and so on. This makes it possible to play the piece in a rather fast tempo, although I don't have to move my fingers fast ...    Then I can try to work in the opposite way: slowly position my hand - play the arpeggio real fast - slowly move on to the next hand position - play that part real fast, and so on. And then try to combine two or three transitions seamlessly, of course.

I simply believe in the efficiency of working with one thing at a time. This makes the practice more fun because you can work in so many ways. (Another crazy method I have to learn the positions mechanically is to play every note with the same value and a moderate, steady tempo - works best in HS of course, and sounds awful, but it is rather effective.) I have tried to play the incremental way, by slowly increasing the tempo bit by bit - but heavens, it is insanely boring and my playing finally sounds mechanical.   

[timothy42b]

Excellent post bronnestam, I agree with everything. 

[anima55]

One way to find the patience required for slow practice could be to find a teacher who pushes you to listen to every single note you are playing and to aim for perfection.  (Perfection is most likely not possible but aiming for it definitely is)

My teacher was a perfectionist; he listened to every single note I played and if it wasn't to his liking, corrected me on it.  This worked for me!  It ensured that when I was practising alone, I truly did listen to every note I was playing to achieve the sound I was looking for.  It was too scary in my lessons to do otherwise!

[indianajo]

II would agree with Bronnestam and anima55.  When I practice slowly, I'm trying to get everything correct, notes, touch, volume, pauses, just the tempo is wrong.  Why practice something wrong and the right speed? You can hear a piece on the LP or CD, or the teacher will play it for you,  why bother playing a piece up tempo and wrong? Just for entertainment?  Do it right or not at all, that way you won't be learning wrong movements.  
It is Interesting to read Bronnestam's perspective coming into piano from ballet.  Every movement has more nuances in ballet, more ways to get it wrong in three dimensions, rehearsing the movements correctly must be a real challenge.  I'm sure piano is easier than ballet to perform accurately, or I wouldn't be attempting it.  Especially age 64.
Anima55 my teacher wasn't a perfectionist in the first hearings of a piece, the goal in the beginning was to get the notes and hand positions right.  But as I got the notes correct slowly, she went on to teach me touch, volume, expression points, while I was still playing the piece slowly.  I have a lot of patience and was  willing to perfect the piece slowly, before I ever cranked up the speed.  This slow practice made the final rehearsals quite exillerating, to hear all that music happening with the correct everything, faster than I could possibly think it through.  The brain is a wonderful toy, able to do things that most people can only do with the help of a phonograph or radio.  
As far as analyziing a piece like Ms Ogorodnikov does by leaving parts out, I have a lot to learn in that genre of skills.  I'm just beginning to tiptoe into the idea of remembering chord names as I play, to improve my newbie level skill of playing pop tunes by ear.  

[timothy42b]

When I practice slowly, I'm trying to get everything correct, notes, touch, volume, pauses, just the tempo is wrong.  

Keeping everything exactly the same except the tempo is not a simple task, though.  There are things you can't do slowly.  Jump up in the air for example.  Pole vault.  Snap your fingers.  Trill.

Why practice something wrong and the right speed? You can hear a piece on the LP or CD, or the teacher will play it for you,  why bother playing a piece up tempo and wrong?

We're not advocating playing something sloppily with a lot of error.  But at some point to learn to play fast, you have to play fast.  The mechanics are different at speed, OR IT WOULDN'T be hard.  To play slowly correctly you have to use the same mechanics as you need at speed, but it is very very hard to be sure you're doing that.  Especially if you don't have those mechanics yet - in that case the slow practice doesn't do you anywhere near as much good as you think.

When I practice slowly, I'm trying to get everything correct, notes, touch, volume, pauses, just the tempo is wrong

Okay, trick question (do you breathe in or out on your backswing?), just where do you slow down?  How did you decide which movements to do very slowly, and then where to start your acceleration to the fast movements?  You said you keep the volume the same.  That means your finger (or finger/arm/shoulder/torso) moves very fast on an ff note.  Then you abruptly slow down?  or you decelerando to a steady state?  and at some point start your accelerando?  Do you move your finger slowly to the next key?  Or fast, but wait to play it? 

[indianajo]

 just where do you slow down?  How did you decide which movements to do very slowly, and then where to start your acceleration to the fast movements?  You said you keep the volume the same.  That means your finger (or finger/arm/shoulder/torso) moves very fast on an ff note.  Then you abruptly slow down?  or you decelerando to a steady state?  and at some point start your accelerando?  Do you move your finger slowly to the next key?  Or fast, but wait to play it?  

I start slowly and never sped up until I and my teacher heard perfection. If I do speed up and something is wrong, I mark the score,  slow down some but not as much as was required in  the beginning of learning the piece. The time to plan movements ahead is crucial to learning only correct movements.    Obviously, the piano produces volume from finger velocity, so a loud note will require fast finger movement, but the next note comes up in slow tempo, after your cortex (concious thought) has plenty of time to plan ahead.  I never had trouble cranking up the speed, although the speed of my 4-5 finger rh trills limits my ultimate velocity on things like Beethoven Moonlight Sonata 3rd movement.  BTW with limited practice time while I was working, only on weekends usually,  I'm now completing Pictures at an Exhibition thirty two years after I bought it, but the process of learning was the same.  Retirement is wonderful- I really need to buy a beater wood piano for my summer trailer home; I lost a lot of strength this summer. 
The only pieces I try up to tempo are really easy things like hymns out of the hymnal, and I still prefer to have a slower run through before the service if possible.  If I got to church too late to do that, some of what I play is approximations, which is more annoying to me than the congregation at that tiny church, I am sure. The old people (most of them) were so tired of music out of the computer, and never the old favorites that are in the hymnal that we over sixties remember and love.  

[anima55]

There are times for practising slowly and times for pushing yourself to your limits.  Both are important but each has a part to play.

No matter what you practise, you should be able to play something, anything, very slowly and be in control no matter what speed you are eventually aiming for.  If you can push and pull the notes at will, you have mastered those notes.  So slow practise is vital for getting full control.  For me, it's like driving a car.  You learn how to use the controls so that the car becomes an extension of you.  In the same way, you learn to control your fingers so that they, too, become an extension of you.

Having said this, I also believe there are times when you can just push yourself to your limits and play as fast as you can.  This is an important part of general practise and time should be given to doing this by getting out other music which you are not currently practising, and just go for it, wrong notes and all.

[timothy42b]

I start slowly and never sped up until I and my teacher heard perfection.

Part of your success is that you already play to a high standard so when you slow down, you are using efficient motions.

However, I do want to point out that you haven't really answered the question of what exactly you slow down, and how you decided to slow those parts down and not others.  This problem is almost never addressed, but it is important.

[indianajo]

I practice everything slowly, unless I have a recent history of playing through it perfectly at tempo.  
And if something that I had down at one point, but now am making any mistake more than twice, I slow down again, and work through the difficult passage where my brain is telling my fingers to do something wrong.  
Anima55, the time to rip through something is when it is in your repretoire- you have it learned already.  There are three Scott Joplin rags I plow through or rip through nearly every night, for strength maintenance, and sugar elimination from the blood after dinner at night.  These make me sweat and deep breathe a  little, show my confidence, and are pleasant also.  Then I usually go into pieces that I haven't learned to challenge myself to learn them.  Those the tempo is below standard, until I have them up to my idea of perfection. the harder pieces are like doing crossword puzzles, being done is not the goal, learning is the goal.    
Some nights I just play old chestnuts up to tempo, particularly if I am going to perform the next day.

[timothy42b]

I practice everything slowly,

No you don't, or the piano wouldn't make any sound.  The key press at least is done at full speed.

SOME but NOT ALL of the other motions are done slowly.

The whole body is involved in playing the piano, from the tensing of the buttocks muscles through move of the torso, shoulder, arm, forearm, wrist, hand, fingers.  The finger may move vertically, but the arm is moving laterally and forward and back, the forearm is rotating, the wrist is raising and dropping, etc. 

You cannot simply "play slowly" without considering what you are doing slowly..