Progressing as a student

[hedgejoel]

Just a bit of background- I had a few piano lessons from the age of 5-7 where I learnt to read music but then left playing the piano for about 10 years. Now at 20 year of age I have really been working hard to become a better pianist (putting in about 2 hours a day of practice) and have some set end goals in mind (for example to play some difficult Beethoven sonatas). I do not have a piano teacher (and for economic reasons, cannot get one for the foreseeable future), yet I need a bit of direction with regards to what mix of pieces I should be adding to my repertoire in order to progress as a well rounded and technically good pianist.
I currently have just been working from a book of simple sonatas, and have just polished off Beethovens G minor and G major (op.49).... but I have no idea what to do next.
Working through my current book 'Schirmers sonatina album (vol.51)' doesn't seem to be very progressive, as they all seem to be quite similar in difficulty, and I feel that I should be playing different types of pieces other than simple Clementini and Kuhlau sonatas.

How would you decide on a range of pieces to follow on from this?
Any advice would be most appreciated.

[gustaaavo]

One of the most important and difficult roles of a teacher is chosing repertoire. It has to serve as a "route" for improvement (and there is no universally optimal route; specific characteristics of each student have to be addresed).

So, without a teacher, one has to be really clever about this (and familiarize with the repertoire as much as possible; take advantage of modern marvels such as IMSLP and YouTube). Of course, one has to be careful about many other issues while working without a teacher, but I do think it can be done, although it is not ideal (I recommend that you read/research a lot about music and technique, I've got some book recommendations if you want).

You need to choose pieces that will challenge you but that won't be impossible. There really isn't much advice to be given here without knowing how you play. Nevertheless, a couple of things can be said:
1. BACH: I don't know if you have already, but really dig into Bach's music, as it is a great way of working on both mechanical and mental issues. I can't really say that there's an ideal order for working through Bach, but that order would certainly begin with one or more inventions (which I suppose you can manage). Also, there are some preludes (of WTC I) that are amazing for working on technical issues (C minor for finger dexterity, D major for rythmical and tonal evenness, etc...). Please don't think i'm regarding Bach's works as "quasi-Hanon", I simply think that one can work on technique while studying masterworks.
2. I think it is great that you have already worked on both Op. 49 sonatas. I agree that you shouldn't linger on that volume of sonatinas (unless you really like them), but should rather move on to a Mozart sonata or to another one of Beethoven (this might help https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=6368.0). Pretty much any sonata (as you surely noticed with Op. 49) offers plenty of musical and technical challenges.

It is really hard to give further advice. If there's a piece you adore and think you can mange, go for it, it can do nothing but good (if you're careful about technical issues, e.g. preventing bad habits or even injuries).

P.S. I didn't write about exercises as Hanon and Czerny since I got my technical rudiments mainly from repertoire and, of course, some scales, arpeggios and chords. Of course, the works of those and other master pedagogues can be really beneficial. What really can't be avoided is the etudes of the great composers (Chopin, Liszt, Rachmaninoff, Debussy, Scriabin....) once you're ready for those higher realms of pianism.

[gustaaavo]

(Is there a way of deleting this (re-post) mistake?) (sorry)  

[j_menz]

(Is there a way of deleting this (re-post) mistake?) (sorry)  

Nope, it will haunt you forever.

@OP - The sonatina album also suffers, apart from not being very progressive, from being largely of the same period/style. You should branch out and try different styles to broaden your horizons and technical toolkit.

The Bach Inventions are invaluable, and otherwise you might look at one of the published syllabi from one of the examining bodies for lists of suitable works. Some are not free, but the ABRSM one is downloadable here (pdf).

[cwjalex]

i know some people will disagree with this but i think you should try to play some pieces that are far beyond your technical level.  don't make it the only thing you practice but always keep it in the background to push your own limits.  you can also use it to gauge your own progression as this once impossible piece will become easier and easier until you can finally play it. 

when i first started piano i actively looked for pieces that people considered extremely difficult to play.  after only a few months of playing i tried to learn la campanella just to see what it was like.  for me it was mentally satisfying thinking "okay this is a difficult piece and almost everything else i approach will be easier".  in general i think this approach is better than always picking pieces that are very comfortable and never challenging yourself.  i think you will progress faster the more you challenge yourself and force yourself out of your comfort zone.

[outin]

when i first started piano i actively looked for pieces that people considered extremely difficult to play.  after only a few months of playing i tried to learn la campanella just to see what it was like.  for me it was mentally satisfying thinking "okay this is a difficult piece and almost everything else i approach will be easier".  in general i think this approach is better than always picking pieces that are very comfortable and never challenging yourself.  i think you will progress faster the more you challenge yourself and force yourself out of your comfort zone.

The problem with this approach is often that if you study pieces far beyond your skills, you learn the stuff "wrong" (sounding bad or having non efficient/unhealthy movements) and then you employ the same low quality way of playing to the easier material as well. It may also blur your vision on the quality of your own playing.

Somewhat difficult is fine, it pushes you to learn, but I cannot see how it would be beneficial for an amateur to just skip to something that usually is considered suitable after 5-10 years of serious piano study and even professional find challenging...

[cwjalex]

The problem with this approach is often that if you study pieces far beyond your skills, you learn the stuff "wrong" (sounding bad or having non efficient/unhealthy movements) and then you employ the same low quality way of playing to the easier material as well. It may also blur your vision on the quality of your own playing.

Somewhat difficult is fine, it pushes you to learn, but I cannot see how it would be beneficial for an amateur to just skip to something that usually is considered suitable after 5-10 years of serious piano study and even professional find challenging...

like i said the benefit is to keep challenging yourself and pushing your own limits.  i think the whole "i could never play this" or "this piece is way beyond my level" really prevents people from progressing faster. yes you run the risk of forming bad habits but you can run this risk attempting to play any piece.  what bad habits would you form from a difficult piece that you couldn't form from an easier piece? i think if you can analyze your own playing you can avoid many of these bad habits.  it's the method i used for both piano and guitar and by the time i took lessons i hadn't developed any poor habits as a result of attempting to play difficult pieces. the bad habits i had formed such as my left hand being too loud and not paying attention to dynamics had nothing to do with attempting to play difficult pieces.

i remember not that long ago my teacher asked me how i learned things like hand and finger position without taking lessons and i told her i just video recorded my hands while playing and made adjustments so my hands and fingers looked the same way that professionals did.  also, a lot of sheet music has fingerings so you don't have to worry about inefficiency.

[outin]

 also, a lot of sheet music has fingerings so you don't have to worry about inefficiency.

?? Efficiency in piano playing goes way beyond fingerings...

I hope your very unconventional method works for you. I've seen it not work with quite a lot of people, myself included

[cwjalex]

?? Efficiency in piano playing goes way beyond fingerings...

I hope your very unconventional method works for you. I've seen it not work with quite a lot of people, myself included

i suppose it does but i mainly think of fingerings.

can you answer my question from before?  what bad habits would you form from attempting to play a difficult piece that you wouldn't form from an easy piece?

also it's surprising that you say u have seen it not work with "quite a lot of people" as i don't think it's very common for people to rigorously attempt to play things far beyond their technical ability.  You said yourself it's an unconventional method which by definition means it is not generally done.

[outin]

can you answer my question from before?  what bad habits would you form from attempting to play a difficult piece that you wouldn't form from an easy piece?

The difficult repertoire requires much more skill for someone to be able to play it without tension. It also requires more skill to listen to one's own playing to achieve musically sound results.

also it's surprising that you say u have seen it not work with "quite a lot of people" as i don't think it's very common for people to rigorously attempt to play things far beyond their technical ability.  You said yourself it's an unconventional method which by definition means it is not generally done.

No, it's unconventional in the sense that most teachers would not recommend it or go along with it.

It's actually quite common for adult beginners to start this way. Quite a few have then later gone to a good teacher and have had to "start over" from the basics.

[cwjalex]

The difficult repertoire requires much more skill for someone to be able to play it without tension. It also requires more skill to listen to one's own playing to achieve musically sound results.

No, it's unconventional in the sense that most teachers would not recommend it or go along with it.

It's actually quite common for adult beginners to start this way. Quite a few have then later gone to a good teacher and have had to "start over" from the basics.

well it worked for me and there's no way i would have progressed at the rate that i did if i didn't challenge myself with difficult pieces.  when i speak to other musicians who have improved extremely rapidly they have all tried to play difficult pieces very early on.