My parents bought a lousy secondhand piano??!

[henias]

    Okay, so at the time when my parents bought an acoustic secondhand piano I was about 14 years old and I just started learning the piano. Now Im 17, and I realised it has really bad sound. FOR 3000 dollars!! I think they have been 'cheated' by the seller bcos they know nothing about music and I wasnt even there to test the sound at that time. How stupid of me.

    So, my piano is actually VERY LOUD and the sound of it is extremely metallic and screechy. Not smooth at all. I actually have to always press down the suppressor pedal all the time. This shouldnt be the case of a "good piano" right? Should I sell it quickly? I feel like as a intermediate pianist now I should have a feel and hear the piano before buying it. The first time when they bought it I wasnt even there... Should I buy a new or secondhand piano? I feel like I cant trust secondhand pianos.

[hfmadopter]

Have your parents get a hold of a good piano tuner and have the piano, first evaluated and if in good condition, then voiced. It sounds as though it probably needs tuning and voicing. Not  uncommon at all..

[indianajo]

There are hundreds of superior console pianos going to the dump in my area every day.  The brand names are not supported by pep talks from good looking salesmen, or ratings in magazines, so nobody wants them.  Most pianos in the 1950's and 60's were bought as furniture, status symbols,  or for children that never learned, so most of them are hardly worn.  What people want is some piece of imported trash made of mystery woods that comes with a great warrenty (piece of paper)  and a glowing testimonial by a team of good looking smooth talking sales people.  Ask my retired friend about his "superior" 2009 Pearl River studio piano that has broken three strings in the same location.  "Nobody" can repair it, and the dealer refuses to "send a tuner that far out" to fix it under warrenty.  He lives in Hitchcock TX about 40 miles from Houston.  The 2008? Yamaha studio my church bought is so dull and lifeless, you'd love it.  They have had to spend $500 on a mike and set of powered speakers to make it audible to a congregation of 200.  I play a 55 Baldwin Acrosonic at another church for charity dinners on Saturdays, that is loud enough without any amp whatsoever that it can make diners raise their voices to be heard .  
A great console can be bought for $200 if out of tune and picked up quickly, before the carpet installers come. Look on craigslist.  
I like a loud bright piano, so I won't mention my favorite old brands. Don't buy a 36" spinet unless going to college, the actions are a bit slow, though they are quite portable.  You probably want a 39,40 44 or 46 height  You might like (all brands mentioned before 1988? when factories were closed and the names attached to second rate imports)  Wurlitzer, Story & Clark, Hamilton, Mason & Hamlin, Sohmer, Goodall, Everett.  First line Baldwin Acrosonics are quite bright and loud which you won't like, and Steinways are usually loud and  often beat to death by school use.    (My 1941 Steinway 40 was apparently lightly used in a home, except for the distressed veneer that chased away the pro Steinway flipper. My 41 Steinway has holes in the front rail to make it louder for the player).  
When buying a used piano without involving a tuner, try all notes chromaticly to make sure none are stuck. Using two fingers on opposite hands, play a single note as fast as possible to see how fast the action is.  Some are too slow for my reperetoire. Open it up, make sure there are no broken strings, mouse eaten parts (except leather return straps are cheap to replace with polyester material) hammer shafts warped by moisture, hammers scooped in the middle by too many hours played without revoicing.  Make sure bass, two string and three string notes match each other in tone in volume. Make sure the soundboard and steel frame are not visibly cracked.     There are often problems with the damper pedal mechanism not working due to poor moving; these are usually easily fixed without resorting to a professional. See how many dampers are missing at the top and determine if the ringing of the notes without dampers bothers you (they all are missing an octave of dampers, many more than that)   DON"T worry about intonation at the $200 price point, it will be bad.  For triple the price you can buy from a flipper that has moved the piano to a flea market and rough tuned it.  My 41 Steinway required seven tunings to get there - then it was stable for a couple of years.  I did these tunings myself. Don't expect a pro to pull a neglected piano up to A440 in one pass- that breaks strings.  A single loose pin is a nuisance you will have to risk at the $200 price point, as you can't really tell until you get the piano tuned a couple of times if you have one or not.  
So have fun.  $3000 is way too much for a console piano IMHO.  Baby grands, $2500-3000 is about right.  

[henias]

Thanks for the detailed reply. I didn't know there are so many things to take note of... I just checked with a professional and my piano is worth only $1700- 1900. Not $3000. I have been cheated. Im just not sure if my parents are willing to buy another piano for me bcos of the huge amount of investment. I love playing the piano, but for leisure and maybe piano lessons bcos my life is hectic as an 18 year old and my parents are afraid that I just leave it to waste if im not committed. Let me ask you a question: Would you rather just a cheap piano and not liking the sound of it or would you fork in extra cash but ultimately enjoy playing your own piano?

However, from my parents point of view: Just buy a cheap piano will do. Pianos are all the same. He may not play it for the rest of his life, its a waste of money.
From my point of view, piano is an outlet for my depression and stress and I want to truly enjoy the touch and sound of it... u know?

To the person who said my piano is just a matter of voicing and tuning, I don't think so. Im sure every piano have different feel and sound to it. But my piano is just so annoyingly loud like the cymbals; just a lot of vibration and very screechy. I can assure you its NOT pleasant to the ears. Even my mum said why is it so loud... To the extent I have to push down the suppressor pedal (middle pedal, mines not the sostenuto pedal idk why) so that my piano actually has WEIGHT and softer volume. With the sustained pedal pushed, the whole piano can be as loud as those in concerts, you don't even need microphones.

[henias]

hfmadopter I have tuned and voiced the piano before it still sounded very loud.

[henias]

And mine is a secondhand YAMAHA brand piano. Not sure why is it so loud.

[hfmadopter]

hfmadopter I have tuned and voiced the piano before it still sounded very loud.

I stand by my statement, will add " Properly Tuned and Voiced". Properly meaning to an end result that pleases you. Now I don't know your piano specifically but I do know and have experienced many pianos before and after voicing, in some cases where there was a huge change in tonal character softness etc.. One of the first signs that a piano needs voicing is that it hurts your ears and you just can't play it light enough to not hurt your ears !! Generally, if they shove a voicing tool ( I'll call it a  bodkin since they are lightly barbed) right in near the striking surface, high on the shoulders of the hammers after lightly filing the hammer faces and re shaping the hammers, then that piano is going to sound completely different than now. You can turn a piano to mush with improper voicing though ( muddy, no volume). So it can have a huge effect to little  effect depending on the approach taken. There are single needle bodkins, triple and quad. So the under hardness can be lightly touched or heavily touched . It can also just be needled with non barbed  ( smooth) tools that pull out no felt but just sort of displaces it..

The piano can also be tuned at A442 and sound very bright or lower to 438 and give a much more pleasing effect. The standard being 440. Some pianos just sound great at different tunings than others. Most older period Streinways and the like never have seen even 440 though, never mind the new fad of 442. My ears are getting old and sensitive, I can't stand a piano that rings. Sings yes, rings no. Bell tone yes, sharp rings no. I voiced my own grand, it sounds nice when I play it but I'm mostly on my digital these days, played through Pianoteq software and many of the older period instruments in Pianoteq I have changed to 438 even.

But hey, if you just want another piano, a different piano, go for it. Some day it too will need voicing, they all do. Even new pianos have to be voiced.

[henias]

Hi, I think mine is a Yamaha B1. Its more of a begginers piano it is relatively cheap and simple. But it is very very bright and it can hurt my ears. Im not so eager to buy a new piano just yet but I feel like I want a piano that can suit my touch. I will need to upgrade my piano some day and maybe use it for another decade or so depends. So I need to choose one very carefully. Maybe I should voice my yamaha b1 too and see how it goes.. what is your advice?

[dima_76557]

henias

Except for the instrument itself, there may also be problems with the room it is in. What kind of room is it? Size, form? What kind of floor is it standing on? Carpet? (judging by your description, most likely not) What does that instrument stand against? Which other objects in the room could resonate negatively together with the instrument, etc. etc.

P.S.: Very old second-hand uprights sound the best (the warm sound of real wood added to the vibrations of the strings), but you have to be lucky to find such an instrument.

[henias]

henias

Except for the instrument itself, there may also be problems with the room it is in. What kind of room is it? Size, form? What kind of floor is it standing on? Carpet? (judging by your description, most likely not) What does that instrument stand against? Which other objects in the room could resonate negatively together with the instrument, etc. etc.

P.S.: Very old second-hand uprights sound the best (the warm sound of real wood added to the vibrations of the strings), but you have to be lucky to find such an instrument.

Mine piano is standing on marble floor tiles against a wall. But it is in a relatively large living room with plenty of windows so I dont think the loud sounds are caused by resonations. I personally do not like very bright and sharp pianos, especially most Yamahas are naturally bright. I am curious about voicing actually, is voicing capable of making ALL pianos sound mellow or bright and sound the same? If voicing is capable of that, then why do piano brands matter anyway? I could just voice it to the way I like and just buy any piano of any brand...

[hfmadopter]

Hi, I think mine is a Yamaha B1. Its more of a begginers piano it is relatively cheap and simple. But it is very very bright and it can hurt my ears. Im not so eager to buy a new piano just yet but I feel like I want a piano that can suit my touch. I will need to upgrade my piano some day and maybe use it for another decade or so depends. So I need to choose one very carefully. Maybe I should voice my yamaha b1 too and see how it goes.. what is your advice?

You should not try voicing a piano yourself if you have no background information to work with. I have been around professional techs and helped install hammers in my own grand as part of a reduction in purchase price more than 30 years ago. I've watched a lot of pianos being voiced and have also watched videos on the procedure. I've studied Kawai's manuals on voicing as well. Don't just attack your piano hammers !

The sound and tone of a piano is not derived by voicing alone but it can go a very long ways towards that end. All materials and layout of the piano makes up it's tonal character with voicing and correct tuning giving it the softer response or harder response. Voicing can go a very longs ways toward taming a hard sounding piano.

Marble floor and hard walls and a lot of glass most certainly add to the complication , no question in my mind !! Tapestries on the walls and windows and throw carpets on the floor under and around the piano will make a big difference. Hard wood floors are bad enough but marble would really resonate. Acoustics play a huge part in how a piano sounds. In fact now knowing this, I would start there before attempting to have any voicing done. Treat the room first. Sometimes even a a fake oriental rug hung up on the wall behind the piano can make a big difference for instance. Or acoustic panels even better. A single and not very large tapestry changed my living room with my grand in it. Actually taking it down changed the room, it was there when we put in the piano.

[quantum]

That sounds like a very lively room.  Hard surfaces such as glass and tile can have a large affect on room acoustics.  For starters, try covering one window with curtains or lay down a throw rug.  Notice the change in room acoustics this makes.  Proceed with moving the window and floor coverings around the room to see what sounds best.  From there you will have a better idea of how to "tune"  your room with additional coverings.  

[henias]

Okay I did try to put a rug, change the environment as u described, I think its still pretty bright
Most probably I will upgrade to another piano I like but I would really want to ask this. Why do pianos of the same brand and model have different brightness? I saw a website in UK saying they sell bright Yamaha U3 as well as mellow Yamaha U3s... but one is 1976 while the other is 1978?? Are these piano voiced or is it naturally manufactured like that? So next time I want to get a new piano do I ask the person like I want a mellow Yamaha U3? Im still pretty confused about this tone thing. Does a specific model of a brand comes with a fixed tone? Like all 1976 U3 are mellow and all 1978 U3 are bright? (Im talking about new pianos, not those that have been voiced)

[henias]

Im sorry Im pretty inexperienced at this kind of instrument stuff so you have to guide me along. My apologies.

[michael_c]

Does a specific model of a brand comes with a fixed tone? Like all 1976 U3 are mellow and all 1978 U3 are bright? (Im talking about new pianos, not those that have been voiced)

As pianos go, Yamahas are pretty consistent, but there are always differences from instrument to instrument. I doubt that all 1976 U3 were mellow: you can probably find two U3s from the same year with very different sounds. Voicing can make a huge difference: all new pianos need to be voiced, and depending on how this has been done on the first and subsequent occasions, the piano may end up with a more mellow or more bright tone.

Before you go looking for a new piano, get a qualified piano technician to look at yours. Ask him/her what can be done with voicing: getting your hammers voiced and maybe the action regulated will cost a fraction of the price of a new piano.

[indianajo]

Where I live, I had trouble getting the tech that worked at the Steinway dealer to tune my piano to A440. He was tuning it flat to save time, IMHO, When I moved here the piano was only 2 years old.  When I started tuning it myself (after he refused to come anymore due to my cat)  recordings were suddenly in a major key instead of a quarter tone off. .  With one string that went flat in three months every time it was tuned, he installed a humidifier instead of doing anything about the pin or hole.  With tech support like that, I would be stupid to allow him to voice a piano.  You people that live in London or the East coast metroplex have no idea. 
Whereas I can get on craigslist anytime and probably find a $100 to $200 piano that probably sounds better than the **** Yamaha console my church is so proud of. I've heard from several Yamaha owners about the "beautiful blue eyes" of the Yamaha salesman near here.   
I've never known anybody that said they  had a piano voiced.  No church either. That is in my 56 years of playing the piano. 
Softening your room will definitely help if your piano volume bothers you.  Sound treatment between the piano and the hard wall will do the most good for cutting the volume to the player.  Such batting is sold by musical instrument shops, frequently on line.  There is a reason recording studios are all black with foam all over the walls. 
Pianos have different sounds due to different designs.  The Wulitzer console I play at one church is loud and boomy, but with not much attack.  The Baldwin Acrosonics have a distinct ping attack and are pretty loud. The Baldwin Hamiltons are mellower and cheaper, with fewer dampers being the most obvious cost cutting feature.   Some pianos have plywood pin blocks, some solid.  Some pianos have a thinner sheet of wood on the back "soundboard" carefully selected for high quality. The best ones used spruce.   Some pianos just have the next sheet of wood in the stack, probably thicker since it was not carefully inspected.  Some pianos use Siberian wood, that has not been proved by 150 years of experience.   
The kind of felt used in the hammer matters a lot to the sound.  Voicing often involves softening the felt by fluffing it up. 
Some manufacturers don't dry their wood properly and have trouble with bent hammer shafts, there are two brands I won't mention that I've seen with this problem.  Some manufactures make the three kind of strings match well, some skip that step.  Different gauge strings are used by different manufacturers. 

[henias]

Where I live, I had trouble getting the tech that worked at the Steinway dealer to tune my piano to A440. He was tuning it flat to save time, IMHO, When I moved here the piano was only 2 years old.  When I started tuning it myself (after he refused to come anymore due to my cat)  recordings were suddenly in a major key instead of a quarter tone off. .  With one string that went flat in three months every time it was tuned, he installed a humidifier instead of doing anything about the pin or hole.  With tech support like that, I would be stupid to allow him to voice a piano.  You people that live in London or the East coast metroplex have no idea. 
Whereas I can get on craigslist anytime and probably find a $100 to $200 piano that probably sounds better than the **** Yamaha console my church is so proud of. I've heard from several Yamaha owners about the "beautiful blue eyes" of the Yamaha salesman near here.   
I've never known anybody that said they  had a piano voiced.  No church either. That is in my 56 years of playing the piano. 
Softening your room will definitely help if your piano volume bothers you.  Sound treatment between the piano and the hard wall will do the most good for cutting the volume to the player.  Such batting is sold by musical instrument shops, frequently on line.  There is a reason recording studios are all black with foam all over the walls. 
Pianos have different sounds due to different designs.  The Wulitzer console I play at one church is loud and boomy, but with not much attack.  The Baldwin Acrosonics have a distinct ping attack and are pretty loud. The Baldwin Hamiltons are mellower and cheaper, with fewer dampers being the most obvious cost cutting feature.   Some pianos have plywood pin blocks, some solid.  Some pianos have a thinner sheet of wood on the back "soundboard" carefully selected for high quality. The best ones used spruce.   Some pianos just have the next sheet of wood in the stack, probably thicker since it was not carefully inspected.  Some pianos use Siberian wood, that has not been proved by 150 years of experience.   
The kind of felt used in the hammer matters a lot to the sound.  Voicing often involves softening the felt by fluffing it up. 
Some manufacturers don't dry their wood properly and have trouble with bent hammer shafts, there are two brands I won't mention that I've seen with this problem.  Some manufactures make the three kind of strings match well, some skip that step.  Different gauge strings are used by different manufacturers. 

Nobody told me ever told me aboit voicing or anything about them voicing their pianos. I just dont get it. Why change the piano sound since it is made like that... Im sure every piano has different sounds and brightness and that makes them unique. Tuning yes, voicing rarely.

[hfmadopter]

 

Nobody told me ever told me aboit voicing or anything about them voicing their pianos. I just dont get it. Why change the piano sound since it is made like that... Im sure every piano has different sounds and brightness and that makes them unique. Tuning yes, voicing rarely.

[michael_c]

Nobody told me ever told me aboit voicing or anything about them voicing their pianos. I just dont get it. Why change the piano sound since it is made like that... Im sure every piano has different sounds and brightness and that makes them unique. Tuning yes, voicing rarely.

I think Steinway and Sons should know what they are talking about:

Voicing & Tone Regulation
While a Steinway piano is tuned to a 440 pitch, this is an absolute reference points, piano voicing is to some extent a matter of preference. Some pianists prefer "bright" voicing while others prefer a mellower sound. Regardless of its original voicing, every piano will acquire a somewhat brighter tone with time, because the hammer felts will be compacted as they are thrown repeatedly against the strings.

Therefore, depending on your taste and the amount of use your piano gets, we suggest the piano be voiced when your ear tells you the time has come. Experience has taught us that a piano which receives normal use in the home will need to be voiced every 2 or 3 years.

Many people mistake piano tuning and piano voicing for one and the same process. The tonal quality of your piano is determined by the character of the felt covering of the hammers which strike the strings. With use, this felt becomes packed hard and the strings cut into the surface. The resulting tonal quality will be quite harsh.

In the process the resiliency of tile hammer felts is adjusted with special tools and then all notes are balanced so that the tone is uniform throughout the keyboard. This is obviously a job which demands special skills and should be attempted only by a professional piano technician.

(From https://www.steinwaypianos.com/service/technical)