There's "whining" and then there's Whining.

[nyiregyhazi]

As far as I know, there at least used to be teachers for whom there are given practice requirements, or it is a given that it is expected.  I actually do not have a formal outline yet, but one of my aims for this year was to make one.  I actually do agree that 30 mins a day is cause to make a person balk in this terrain, and when I have ever outlined it for others, it's generally been about 20 mins/4-5 days a week.  I would probably take that, honestly, but my point is that this particular mother, the only person to whom I've ever offered a discount AND said anything about practice requirements, did not even ask further.  And, if she is a musician and a music teacher herself and didn't at least have any expectation that her girls would practice in lessons whether they are paying for them or not, or understand herself the link between work and progress and expect to help her girls understand that while undertaking lessons, then what did she expect?  But either way, the fact that even you believe it's too much to ask at the outset that a person practices a certain amount (which, in fact, the time itself is not as important as the quality, but most people have an even harder time understanding that from the outset) shows that it's becoming scarce to expect to have a music teaching business that includes some form of requirements.

In past experiences, when I have offered a discount to my neighbor's girls, for example, for 1) it was at a time that even we could barely pay the mortgage.  2) Her girls did not actually truly want the lessons, and 3) on top of it she called me up one day to let me know that they just could not pay anything at all that month because they spent the money buying gifts for other people.  I also provided their books at no cost.  Oh, and could I watch their chickens and dog while they go on vacation to the family cabin in the mountains of CA?  And pretty soon we'll be taking a family trip to Mexico.  Oh, and look at this brand new family vehicle we just bought, isn't it so much better than that clunky Ford Festiva you're driving around??  It's really disrespectful on a human level, even though I don't think she actually meant to be intentionally offensive.  In the meantime, I am still pretty deep into paying off my own school loans, and paying quite a bit more for every lesson I take myself than what I charge as a teacher.  Sorry, but that. doesn't. work. for. me. anymore.  And it never truly did.  And it didn't actually help them, either, not even musically.  Nor did it actually help them understand anything about the business of the music world in any higher form, and the need to support it, etc..  I will never, ever, put myself in that situation again, sorry!

Also, you know, I haven't purchased new clothes in ages.  I don't get my hair cut anymore.  I can't even invest in the real deal of my own lessons anymore.  I don't go to concerts, I don't buy music, I don't buy books (unless I've accrued enough points to not have them formally cost anything through Amazon) I'm still paying off loans from my undergrad.  We very rarely go out to eat and I'm building a garden so as to provide food for the household that is more independent.  I make a point not to turn on the heaters and to shut off every light.  And I have worked extremely hard for every morsel of understanding and experience I have.  These things equate to me wanting to be there for somebody who has a burning desire to learn but is in sincerely difficult circumstances, but these things do NOT equate to me freely offering my studio to someone who couldn't actually give a crap and is maybe not even really struggling.

Fine. As I said I don't offer free lessons either, but merely give extra time to one student who I personally find interesting to work with. The point is that if you are only willing to help people in the situations where you are being paid to do so, or when you get something else out of it that is purely on your terms, that does not show you to be helping person. There's a big difference between wanting to help people without wanting anything in return and someone who always asks "what's in it for me?".

So learn some humility and stop banging on about what a wonderfully helping person you consider yourself. Only being willing to help people in a situation where you are paid to do so is not a sign of altruism and a genuinely helping personality, and you have no grounds for taking such vain pride. It's one thing to be self congratulatory and lacking in humility about genuine acts of kindness. It's a whole different thing to think yourself amazingly giving, when the only time you are willing to "give" anything is when you are paid. That's a transaction honoured on the basis agreed, not a gift.

[m1469]

1.  You actually don't know me, the details of my life, and the ways in which I think.  
2.  There is a difference between wanting to be helpful and actually being helpful, and that is part of my entire point.  I don't want to want, I want to BE.  And what that looks like is not defined by you in any way, in this case.
3.  Sometimes it is the right thing to not ask anything in return and sometimes it is right for there to be some kind of exchange.  In either case, something truly helpful can take place.  That is not rocket science nor any idea that is unique to me stating it.  When it comes to making or breaking another persons own life, then it is very important to consider more than one aspect.  

There are many professions that are centered around being helpful to others while the one employed to be helpful is getting paid.  Sorry, but you actually don't define how all of that works in the world and what everybody's motives for doing what they do are, even if your eyes happen to come into some small contact with words on a forum, from a small glimpse of somebody else's life.  

[m1469]

Also, ideally, certain actions would generate more than one blessing and involve all of humankind.  The Principle is similar to how a Symphony Orchestra ("is supposed to") works.  Everybody would ideally be and feel useful to the core, playing a part that is ideally utilizing that potential to its fullest, and all things working together to create something bigger than any part by itself.  Everybody walks away musically and personally fulfilled because they were fully utilized and actually useful in the best of ways.  And the audience would walk away with something extraordinary, too, that goes beyond a single performance.

It is actually the ideal that what is truly a blessing for one, is truly a blessing for all.  Obviously that is not how we tend to experience life, but that is a different story.

[pts1]

1.  You actually don't know me, the details of my life, and the ways in which I think. 

Really?

With the information you post about yourself all over the internet, you could be exploited in ways that would cause you serious consequences in your personal life.

I don't understand people who live your life on the internet like its your own private little club.

I think you're nuts to put out your real name and say all the crazy stuff you do.

My advice to you is erase all that crap, learn some humility and start being discrete.

[nyiregyhazi]

3.  Sometimes it is the right thing to not ask anything in return and sometimes it is right for there to be some kind of exchange.  In either case, something truly helpful can take place.  That is not rocket science nor any idea that is unique to me stating it.  When it comes to making or breaking another persons own life, then it is very important to consider more than one aspect.  

Indeed. It's utterly normal. Which is why most people who are only prepared to give on the condition that they are getting something worthwhile in return don't bang on about it as if they think they deserve a medal for doing something quite so unremarkable. Giving without asking is admirable, but doing something in return for something else is nothing more than everyday life.

[pianoplayer002]

Indeed. It's utterly normal. Which is why most people who are only prepared to give on the condition that they are getting something worthwhile in return don't bang on about it as if they think they deserve a medal for doing something quite so unremarkable. Giving without asking is admirable, but doing something in return for something else is nothing more than everyday life.

To be fair, giving something back when you are given something is also commendable because some people never do even that. I'll admit it kind of loses its meaning if you give back out of obligation, though.

[nyiregyhazi]

Also, ideally, certain actions would generate more than one blessing and involve all of humankind.  The Principle is similar to how a Symphony Orchestra ("is supposed to") works.  Everybody would ideally be and feel useful to the core, playing a part that is ideally utilizing that potential to its fullest, and all things working together to create something bigger than any part by itself.  Everybody walks away musically and personally fulfilled because they were fully utilized and actually useful in the best of ways.  And the audience would walk away with something extraordinary, too, that goes beyond a single performance.

It is actually the ideal that what is truly a blessing for one, is truly a blessing for all.  Obviously that is not how we tend to experience life, but that is a different story.

Yes. Life is indeed a different story to one in which simply because of some vague metaphor, you think that you are supposed to get whatever you would like. And you might be surprised to learn that a huge number of orchestral players feel remarkably unfulfilled. Even your example of an ideal is nothing more than just that. Bring your head out of the clouds and look at reality. It's small wonder you're so disappointed if you think that simply because you've constructed a vague analogy, life is supposed to correspond. Analogies are supposed to be selected so as to give a reflection of a reality as it has been observed to be. They are not a way of rewriting a reality and will never succeed in doing so.

[nyiregyhazi]

To be fair, giving something back when you are given something is also commendable because some people never do even that. I'll admit it kind of loses its meaning if you give back out of obligation, though.

The point is that it is an agreement. Not a case of give something and hope that maybe you'll be given something that has never been agreed on. The fact that some people don't properly give what they are paid for does not make it some remarkable commendable feat. It's a sad world we live in if the fact that someone doesn't cheat their clients out of the help they are purchasing would be seen as some kind of generosity.

[pts1]

Giving without asking is admirable, but doing something in return for something else is nothing more than everyday life.

I don't know how it is in the UK, but in America these days it seems people have a sense of entitlement and that doing simply what is expected of them in their job, or simply as decent human beings gives them cause to think they have a right to praise or reward.

In my book, "doing the right thing" is sufficient reward in itself.

[m1469]

Oh, don't have such a poopy bottom, guys!

You know, if you were little babies and I was your care giver, I would change your poopy diapers, give you some yummy foods, I'd sit and eat it with you and talk with you like a human being.  I would play games with you and read to you and put you down for a nap.  And you would be happy

Deep down, we all remember a life/world where people knew how to be there for each other, when we saw the purpose in that, and when all of humanity didn't base its functions on "lack" and "fear".

And you might be surprised to learn that a huge number of orchestral players feel remarkably unfulfilled.

No, I am not.  That is part of what I was talking about earlier, of course.  And conductors, too.  

How many composers were/are truly experts about music, each instrument, AND the human condition? hmm?

[keypeg]

.

[flashyfingers]

My former student who I met with last week talked about a professor she had who would routinely stop a lecture to explain his life if somebody ever called him "Mr." instead of "Dr." -

In a professional setting, it is still polite to call the instructor "professor" instead of "Mr.". If not Dr., then go with professor. It's just respect.

[j_menz]

In a professional setting, it is still polite to call the instructor "professor" instead of "Mr.". If not Dr., then go with professor. It's just respect.

Depends where you are, actually. All mine went by their first name.

[outin]

Depends where you are, actually. All mine went by their first name.

We just adressed everyone you...and when discussing someone we'd usually use just the last or the first name. All that unnecessary "politeness" vanished about 40 years ago around here...

[j_menz]

All that unnecessary "politeness" vanished about 40 years ago around here...

You're taking the first syllabub of your capital too literally, I fear.

[outin]

You're taking the first syllabub of your capital too literally, I fear.

?

[nyiregyhazi]

No, I am not.  That is part of what I was talking about earlier, of course.  And conductors, too.  

No it wasn't. Your post was purely about a fictionalised situation where all are happy and fulfilled. What was your point meant to be?

[flashyfingers]

LOL outin & j_menz

other than that, I am not really into this arguesation

[Bob]

[m1469]

.

[jpahmad]

m1469, do you not remember Bernhard's great advise.  Advise that has made me personally very successful (since I started doing this full time 6 years ago)in doing the same exact kind of work you do.  That is, and this is not an exact quote, "in order for me to keep a student, they must do everything I say"  and "If they don't improve to my expectations in 6 months, then I move them on" 

Did you take this advise m1469?

[m1469]

.

[timothy42b]

In this case, I believe that is part of what I feel is lacking, in that the ideal would be to take something existing to a new level and I currently believe quite firmly that it would be best if there were some kind of mentorship that included what is truly happening in my actual studio and with my actual students and in my actual town.  Without that, I can only take things so far without the blind spot coming into play and I feel I have reached that point.

Just as a student needs a teacher to improve their playing, a teacher needs a mentor to improve their teaching.   IMO.   

I've posted an article about coaching and mentoring a number of times, I'm sure you've read it.

Even if you can improve through video recording your teaching and analyzing it yourself, a coach/mentor might save years of trial and error, just as a good teacher does the same for playing.

Most teachers work alone and have little opportunity to see how others do it.   

There are a few downsides.

1.  It is incredibly threatening.  You have to be either very secure or very desperate to let somebody else watch you.   I've been through this in grad school (Clinical Psychology) where our counseling sessions were taped and critiqued in a group session.  It isn't easy but it is necessary. 

2.  You have to find someone qualified. 

3.  You have to resist the urge to reject what they say and do it your own way anyway (this may be a particular problem for you m1469). 

[m1469]

.

[timothy42b]

 Did you have in-person experience working with me in developing my life's work that you are commenting from?

 

Well, actually, yes, you've shared almost 7,000 posts.  Perhaps we know some things about you.

3)  If they do not see me as intelligent and musical, and especially if they are constantly needing to merely exert their own intelligence "over me" in hopes to merely make me tremble and that's our primary interaction and the primary goal of our interaction, then yes, count me out.

You are not seeing the coaching experience as a positive, but as even more threatening than I'd feared.

Re-read this and see what you think. 

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/10/03/personal-best?currentPage=all

[m1469]

.

[timothy42b]

who I do not think truly knows me,

Now my feelings are hurt.

I've posted 2229 times including this one, how do you not know me? 

[pts1]

She has slobbered SO MUCH personal information over the internet it is astounding and frightening.

If someone wanted, they could show up on her doorstep, and that's only the beginning.
I'll not say more since I mean her no harm, but she should try and erase a bunch of the personal stuff she's posted.

[Bob]

There was a shift a few years ago.  m1469 and Bernhard revealed no personal info like that.  I followed along.  Then m1469 flipped.  I prefer to remain in the dark and work amongst the shadows...

[jpahmad]

Look, it doesn't take me very long to figure out what most people are after in music lessons unless I have certain things attached to my name (which I don't), and the point is, I am actually ready for a change in one form or another, and there is no looking back for me at the moment.

[jpahmad]

Look, it doesn't take me very long to figure out what most people are after in music lessons unless I have certain things attached to my name (which I don't), and the point is, I am actually ready for a change in one form or another, and there is no looking back for me at the moment.

m1469, you shouldn't have to "figure out" what most people want out of piano lessons.  You should know exactly what they want right from the beginning after having and in depth discussion with them about the purpose of learning a musical instrument.  You see, the parents are your students as well.  They really don't have any idea of what to expect and they probably have never thought that deeply about why a kid should bother to pursue learning a musical instrument.  They don't have time to do that.  That's where you come in.  In the first meeting, you have to lay everything out on the table.  And I mean, you have to be philosophical.  I literally tell my parents that they (not only the child) must do everything I say  I make this very clear.  I also explain exactly why.  This is usually after a significant lecture about education, building character, etc...  I also have to instruct the parents on how to negotiate with their kids in order to get them to do the work when they don't feel like it."  What I'm saying is that, I have to teach the parents as well.  We then become a team.

[outin]

If someone wanted, they could show up on her doorstep, and that's only the beginning.

I'm ok with people showing up on my doorstep, as long as they bring pizza!

[ahinton]

I'm ok with people showing up on my doorstep, as long as they bring pizza!

Yes, but I think that you're aware of what pts1's talking about.

All this indiscriminate and non-specifically targeted revelation of personal thises and thats, irrepsective of who if anyone might want to know about any of it (still less who if anyone might benefit from knowing about any of it), seems to me to be very much a symptom of the Facebook / Twitter / you-name-it culture; it's almost as though those who habitually and determinedly "share" all of this via such media with such apparently carefree gusto and with all and sundry have permitted themselves to conclude that any sense of personal privacy and any need for it is somehow a thing of the past, although why that's the case for them I have less than no idea. It strikes me as a deeply undignified way of debasing and devaluing oneself in public. If people want to do that kind of thing, it's up to them, of course, just as it's up to some others to ignore it and to keep their own counsel; fortunately, there are no laws anywhere that make it compulsory to expose oneself publicly in such a manner and one can only hope that it stays that way.

Best,

Alistair

[outin]

Yes, but I think that you're aware of what pts1's talking about.

I feel no need to worry about things like that... The probability of someone worse showing up than the religious people that go around ringing people's doorbells is too tiny to be bothered about.

[pts1]

I feel no need to worry about things like that... The probability of someone worse showing up than the religious people that go around ringing people's doorbells is too tiny to be bothered about.

Wow, just WOW!

This must be a generational thing like the desire to express oneself with tattoos and talk openly about your addictions, sexual preferences, and socio political views.

The internet along with this inexplicable mania about exposing all your life details to complete strangers has been an absolute BOON to criminals and anyone into exploiting you or using your information for deciding not to loan you money, hire you, and any number of other motivations.

Why do you think "identify theft" has become so rampant?

Persons with malevolent intent simply have to cull through Facebook and other sites from which low hanging fruit is ripe for the picking.

[outin]

Wow, just WOW!

This must be a generational thing like the desire to express oneself with tattoos and talk openly about your addictions, sexual preferences, and socio political views.

The internet along with this inexplicable mania about exposing all your life details to complete strangers has been an absolute BOON to criminals and anyone into exploiting you or using your information for deciding not to loan you money, hire you, and any number of other motivations.

Why do you think "identify theft" has become so rampant?

Persons with malevolent intent simply have to cull through Facebook and other sites from which low hanging fruit is ripe for the picking.

If someone want's my identity, they are welcome to have it, I'll just make a new one

BTW. I don't know how old you are, but I was born well before internet or social media...it was already quite common for my generation to be open about the above mentioned things decades ago, at least where I come from

[pts1]

If someone want's my identity, they are welcome to have it, I'll just make a new one

If that's truly your attitude, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

I'm very protective of my credit rating, driver's license, Social Security Number, medical records, Passport and on and on and on.

These things, IMHO, are much to hard to build and acquire simply to put at risk.

[outin]

If that's truly your attitude, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

I'm very protective of my credit rating, driver's license, Social Security Number, medical records, Passport and on and on and on.

These things, IMHO, are much to hard to build and acquire simply to put at risk.

I guess it depends on what things one considers really important...The really important things for me are offline anyway.

[nyiregyhazi]

I guess it depends on what things one considers really important...The really important things for me are offline anyway.

It's offline that you're screwed in identity fraud.

[outin]

It's offline that you're screwed in identity fraud.

I know how it works. But at least around here practically everyone's data can be accessed anyway. Even those who do not use internet themselves. The databases and traffic are vulnerable, no matter how careful one is.

But the things that I find really important would not be affected by such things...If someone really would steal my identity it would be an annoyance that I would know how to deal with. I am more likely to be hit by a car when I go out and I still do it...

[m1469]

.

[dima_76557]

-

[ahinton]

I have had many phases over the years.  What you describe above, I do not have the energy for at the moment, and do not get paid enough to somehow foster that kind of energy into my life from nowhere.  I simply do not currently have it in me to make people something they are not.  And, from where I stand, most of it seems extremely unrealistic unless immersed in a culture that already largely embraces this attitude.  What you are talking about goes deeper than piano lessons and I run into walls when approaching it that way, too.  

I currently have about 85 students and have been an extremely passionate musician and educator.  I am not talking about negligence or as somebody who has just thought and taught one way during my teaching career.  If you are sincere, thanks for trying.  What would really convince me or help me or give me a new perspective is to see anybody on this forum and/or one of my own teachers actually work with one of my students and their parents for a lesson and get something out of them that I cannot; and to chart a course for this student that I cannot; and to not just turn them out the door.  And I mean that in all seriousness.  

Even just writing this post I can feel all the same walls.  I am still deeply sad about the piano and I guess I just will be for the rest of my life.  Writing these things may help me sort some things out as I am indeed taking steps forward in my life, but writing these and reading these is not the same thing as developing the curriculum I had believed I was going to create, or studying and demonstrating the things I had believed I would.  It is not the same thing as being immersed in a music school with colleagues and dedicated teachers, and an entire opportunity to work on my musical crafts with a full circle of learning available to me (1. Study  2. Suitable Application  3.  Honest Feedback).  But, anymore, even that seems like a pretty unrealistic idea on what people actually get in a formal education program, almost as though it doesn't even exist in the world as my guts wish(ed) it did.  Or, even if it exists, so what?  How does it affect the world, or even the individual, in an above average way (especially after leaving/graduating the program)?

m1469 - without wishing either to go off-topic or to offer a disproportionate response by majoring in on just one particular issue, I would like quite simply to ask whether it might ever have occurred to you how often you use the words" my life" in your posts (there are, for example, three instances of this just in the one quoted above) - and by no means only in this thread - or indeed the messages that your frequent recourse to those words might send to readers?

Best,

Alistair

[m1469]

.  

[ahinton]

Alistair, to sum up, are you suggesting that by typing or not typing the words "my life" it somehow concretely indicates something in particular?  Feel free to be more direct.  And yes, it's very possible I have actually consciously considered that.

I didn't make mention of "not typing the words", but what I was seeking to suggest - or at least put forward as something to which some thought might be given - is that the frequency with which you use that phrase might be take to imply that a disproportionate amount of what you write around it on each such occasion embraces a tendency to appear to see so many things in terms of the manner and matter of their impact upon you personally - in other words, an impression perhaps analogous to the description of a cross-rhythm as, say, 7 in the time of 6 - only this time it's whatever's being discussed in the time of m1469.

Just wondering - and I hope that I've been clearer now in answering your question as best I believe I am able.

Best,

Alistair

[j_menz]

I didn't make mention of "not typing the words", but what I was seeking to suggest - or at least put forward as something to which some thought might be given - is that the frequency with which you use that phrase might be take to imply that a disproportionate amount of what you write around it on each such occasion embraces a tendency to appear to see so many things in terms of the manner and matter of their impact upon you personally - in other words, an impression perhaps analogous to the description of a cross-rhythm as, say, 7 in the time of 6 - only this time it's whatever's being discussed in the time of m1469.

Just wondering - and I hope that I've been clearer now in answering your question as best I believe I am able.

Best,

Alistair

Or, to paraphrase...

[ahinton]

Or, to paraphrase...

I somehow suspect that a little elucidation here for the benefit of some members reading this thread might not come amiss...

Best,

Alistair

[Bob]

Or, to paraphrase...

I'd go with that for m1469.



Something like this for Alistair....



I wonder what my posting style would be in images....

[ahinton]

I'd go with that for m1469.



Something like this for Alistair....

I have to admit that I don't recall this being part of my property portfolio...

Best,

Alistair

[timothy42b]

 What would really convince me or help me or give me a new perspective is to see anybody on this forum and/or one of my own teachers actually work with one of my students and their parents for a lesson and get something out of them that I cannot; and to chart a course for this student that I cannot; and to not just turn them out the door.

Or even to do what you can, but better.

It would also be useful to have them watch you work with a student, and give you constructive criticism on what you do right and what you do wrong.

In fact, you could video yourself teaching and post it on youtube, and ask some of us to give advice.  Of course you'd have to consider it carefully. 

There is a point in watching videos analytically, too.  Some really great performers/teachers get results and don't know what they do.  (often they think they know but they are wrong)