Emanuel Ax weighs in on an approach to a single note

[timothy42b]

For one NEUTRAL tone out of context yes. However, those seemingly minor differences increase exponentially with the use of more tones in combination within an ARTISTIC context, especially in the forte range with open pedal.

I'm not sure I understand why you think so.

The minor noises (key thud, chair squeak, etc.) would be less apparent when buried under many notes in forte with pedal, wouldn't they?

Whereas some of the voicing and articulation effects might be more obvious? 

[timothy42b]

And by articulation I mean the overlap between notes.  There are extremely subtle differences between performers for how portato and legato are executed.

(last night while warming up the handbell choir, I had them do an exercise for this.  As you probably know, a handbell keeps ringing until you stop it, called damping, by touching it to your body or the table.  Beginners have trouble coordinating this.  I ask them to damp at the end of a note value so the tone does not carry into the next chord, or obscure a melody.  We work on damping the left hand simultaneously with ringing the right hand.  Unlike the less than inch travel of  a piano key, a bell travels maybe 3 feet before ringing, and has to be timed to ring exactly on the beat.  My beginners aren't even close to simultaneous, my advanced ringers are better.  But I worked on making a difference between a tiny gap, a simultaneous ring/damp, and a slight overlap.  You can't really count that, it has to be felt.  Like on piano.) 

[dima_76557]

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[hardy_practice]

Not really, when you claim to time within milliseconds yet can't even time well enough to get a key sounding.

As I said, throwing mud just shows your desperation!

[dima_76557]

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[dima_76557]

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[hardy_practice]

Hey, where are the scientists?!? Or has everybody understood that a sound can be either focussed in different degrees and/or distorted in different degrees and that the sound spectrum of even one single tone thereby changes significantly, independently of how fast you move the hammer?

has that been established?  That there are significant sound effects 'independently' of hammer speed?

[dima_76557]

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[hardy_practice]

But those scientific papers posted don't come to that conclusion?  And neither did Ortmann.  And neither did this thread as far as I've read.

[dima_76557]

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[hardy_practice]

That's fine.  Personal belief is obviously  Ok.  Maybe an IMHO? Or some sort of indication that that's what it is.

[dima_76557]

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[hardy_practice]

As much as you may want to you cannot command my subjective experience.  I have little control myself!   

[sashaco]

None of the debaters who support the idea that different tones can be produced independent of the speed of the hammer have offered specific "additional noise" except the key hitting the key bed.  If you move the key down at a certain speed it doesn't matter when you release it- it's going to hit the key bed.  It is conceivable that if the finger is still in firm contact with the key it may produce a different sound from that impact than would be produced if the key were freely rebounding, but beyond that what else could change? What does your tuner mean, Dima, by "a different sound spectrum"?  Is he arguing that the "additional sounds" are creating interference patterns with the strings' sounds?  That's not altogether unreasonable, but, again, what are the additional sounds?  Unless a player has sticky fingers there's no way of pulling back the key that has been set in motion, so the key bed will be hit if the key exceeds a certain speed.  
I don't have the passionate feelings on the subject some have expressed here, but I tend to agree with Ax.  At the same time I suspect that all the various ways players have of striking, even "yanking" as Dima mentions in her last post, are simply physical representations of their mental approach, and these physical representations better allow them to maintain a continuous mental connection to the sound they intend to produce.
Has anyone seen a chess player screw the bottom of a moved piece down into the board?  He or she is effectively saying, "This is a move about which I have no doubts," but she's saying it both to the opponent and to herself.  The physical action creates the mental state, just as the mental creates the physical.

[dima_76557]

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[hardy_practice]

I think the science says it's not plausible.

[dima_76557]

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[pianoplayer002]

None of the debaters who support the idea that different tones can be produced independent of the speed of the hammer have offered specific "additional noise" except the key hitting the key bed.  If you move the key down at a certain speed it doesn't matter when you release it- it's going to hit the key bed.  It is conceivable that if the finger is still in firm contact with the key it may produce a different sound from that impact than would be produced if the key were freely rebounding, but beyond that what else could change? What does your tuner mean, Dima, by "a different sound spectrum"?  Is he arguing that the "additional sounds" are creating interference patterns with the strings' sounds?  That's not altogether unreasonable, but, again, what are the additional sounds?

Here is a thing you can try:

Find a grand and close the lid that goes over the keys. Fully depress the right pedal. Now, lift your hand 30-40 cm over the lid, let your hand assume a chord playing formation and strike the lid as hard as you can. Warning: this action will be tense and hurt, so only do it once. Next, play the way you normally would play a forfortissimo chord on the lid (provided you know how to do it without the slightest tension). This time around it should not hurt. What are the sonic results of these two experiments?

Next, try it again, but this time opening the lid and doing it on the keys.

[j_menz]

Loathe as I am to prolong this tediousness.... can anyone remember actually playing a single note? No chord, no context?

[hardy_practice]

But experience is subjective and that can't be got at.  My experience is that most pianists are clumsy in the dance partner sense .  They are not aware of their partner - in this case the piano.  We don't need science to address this, just sensitivity.  

[dima_76557]

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[hardy_practice]

Why isn't that translated as castrated?  Isn't that the meaning of Kastraten?

[sashaco]

Here is a thing you can try:

Find a grand and close the lid that goes over the keys. Fully depress the right pedal. Now, lift your hand 30-40 cm over the lid, let your hand assume a chord playing formation and strike the lid as hard as you can. Warning: this action will be tense and hurt, so only do it once. Next, play the way you normally would play a forfortissimo chord on the lid (provided you know how to do it without the slightest tension). This time around it should not hurt. What are the sonic results of these two experiments?

Next, try it again, but this time opening the lid and doing it on the keys.

The lid is going to produce a great deal of sound because the immediate and opposite reaction of the lid to my fingers' movement will go into vibrating the lid.  The keys, however, are going to move away from my fingers, pretty darned silently if the mechanism is in good working order.  The keys will ultimately strike the key bad, but the pads there will absorb most of the sound- that's why they're there. Some sound will still escape.  But once the keys are in fast enough motion to hit that bed that sound will be produced no matter what.  

I still remember the effect on the audience of the first chord Keith Jarrett opened a concert with in 1983.  He put his fingers on the keys, then raised his shoulders high and allowed rigid arms to collapse from there.  It produced a pretty fortissimo sound, and grabbed the crowd, but I don't think the tone was different because of the absence of sound from his fingertips striking the keys.  I'd like to believe that, but it doesn't make logical sense to me.

[sashaco]

I'm sorry.  I clearly misused the quote thing.  It's probably an indication that my intellect is to weak to contribute to this discussion!!

[j_menz]

I'll leave you a witty translation

Which rather understates the point. "Kastraten" being a particular form of "mutilated" that seems essential for the punchline.  Possibly also useful as a disincentive to further posts here.

[sashaco]

When one sees "mutilated" and "choirboys" together does one not instantly supply the specific meaning?

[hardy_practice]

Yes, but the poetry doesn't work so well if you think what Heine is trying to say.

[j_menz]

Why isn't that translated as castrated?  Isn't that the meaning of Kastraten?

No. Kastraten = Castrati, not castrated (noun vs past tense verb).

Of course, the latter is the precondition for becoming the former, but grammar matters and they are not the same thing.

[hardy_practice]

Yes, and so 'choirboys' isn't a good translation - it should read 'castrati'.  Something like: the castrati complain when they hear me sing...

[j_menz]

Yes, and so 'choirboys' isn't a good translation - it should read 'castrati'.  Something like: the castrati complain when they hear me sing...

Your ability to get bogged down in irrelevant details still manages to astound despite extensive experience.

[hardy_practice]

Bogged down in meaning more like.  What Heine is trying to say is more important than the poem.  In its original language they are one and the same.  In music we ask the same question - what is the composer trying to say?  Many translations (interpretations) miss.

[dima_76557]

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[hardy_practice]

I love the title of the site: Poetry For Every Occasion!  

Here's a nicer translation:

[dima_76557]

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[hardy_practice]

The "accoustic signature", the sound characteristics of that tone AFTER it has been sounded and given time to "work" in the room/hall. Is that good English - "accoustic signature"?

If only it was that simple.  If the room was a vacuum there'd be no 'sounded'.  So the room's primary.

[nyiregyhazi]

What year was it when ortmann supposedly disproved tone? One source seemed to say 1925 for an experiment? I'm stunned that anyone is actually taking such research seriously. Did he use 78s for recording purposes? I can believe that people are still going back to a false gospel after the evidence that was presented here.

Btw, try holding a note and then very sharply changing finger. After doing this, it was actually extremely easy to then directly perceive the same noise effect when whacking a key. I am astonished that the myth nothing can be changed ever got given an ounce of credit, nevermind religious acceptance. Btw, for the post who thinks that you can't change the keybed noise, you aren't considering momentum. If the whole arm crashes in, more energy travels. Even with an arm drop, beginning to slow down the arm in the instant before reaching the key (but moving the fingers positively into the key) gives a high keyspeed with very little momentum reaching collision. To assume that a given level of noise is associated to each keyspeed is simply to miss how much scope for manipulation there really is.

[dima_76557]

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[hardy_practice]

What year was it when ortmann supposedly disproved tone? One source seemed to say 1925 for an experiment? I'm stunned that anyone is actually taking such research seriously. Did he use 78s for recording purposes? I can believe that people are still going back to a false gospel after the evidence that was presented here.

you'd find direct-to-disc at 78 the most accurate for recording - not that he did that as far as I'm aware.

[hardy_practice]

Good acoustics certainly help as does taking with you your own instrument.

helps!?  There is no sound without the acoustics!

[timothy42b]

you'd find direct-to-disk at 78 the most accurate for recording - not that he did that as far as I'm aware.

For all the audiophile's love of vinyl LPs, they still suffer from terrible dynamic range, signal to noise ration, and harmonic distortion.  They are vastly inferior to CDs, and probably even mp3s.   This is not a matter of opinion, it is provable both with the basic science and with listener testing. 

The relevance to this conversation is that the facts are irrelevant to what people insist on believing.  . 

[hardy_practice]

For all the audiophile's love of vinyl LPs, they still suffer from terrible dynamic range, signal to noise ration, and harmonic distortion.  They are vastly inferior to CDs, and probably even mp3s.   This is not a matter of opinion, it is provable both with the basic science and with listener testing.  

The relevance to this conversation is that the facts are irrelevant to what people insist on believing.  .  

why do CDs sound rubbish then?  You can't tell me digital's better than analogue!  But that's for another thread. A 78 is neither vinyl nor LP.

[hardy_practice]

https://www.ofai.at/~werner.goebl/papers/Goebl-Bresin-Galembo_JASA2005_PianoAction.pdf

For those who doubt Ortmann's methods, if you check this again you'll find fig 1 a near carbon copy of Ortmann's!

[dima_76557]

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[falala]

Here is a thing you can try:

Find a grand and close the lid that goes over the keys. Fully depress the right pedal. Now, lift your hand 30-40 cm over the lid, let your hand assume a chord playing formation and strike the lid as hard as you can. Warning: this action will be tense and hurt, so only do it once. Next, play the way you normally would play a forfortissimo chord on the lid (provided you know how to do it without the slightest tension). This time around it should not hurt. What are the sonic results of these two experiments?

Next, try it again, but this time opening the lid and doing it on the keys.

What makes you think that whatever sonic differences occur, they are NOT due to differences of hammer speed?

[falala]

I am not reacting to the papers or to Ortmann. I object against those who misinterpret the results of those papers and claim that it doesn't make any difference at all whether you lift and drop a body unit or whether you stay on the key surface; all you have to do, they say, is control the speed of the hammer.

I'm not sure anybody has actually said that but if they have, it doesn't make sense. Because whether you stay on the key surface or lift and drop affects your control of the speed of the hammer.

[dima_76557]

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[brogers70]

Given two tones with identical final hammer velocities and, as a consequence, identical intensities, listening musicians were able to discriminate between struck tone (finger starts from above the surface of the key) and pressed tone (finger starts in contact with the key) by cuing on the adventitious sounds produced by the finger striking the surface of the key. Not perfectly, but better than chance. This is with dampers. It would not be surprising if, without dampers, additional adventitious sounds would make such discrimination more reliable. None of this tells you that great pianists with a beautiful tone have a beautiful tone because they artfully manipulate these small effects, as opposed to, say, artfully manipulating the speed with which they end a tone by releasing the key, or the way they match the volume of adjacent tones, or the way they overlap or do not overlap sequential notes, or the way they voice chords, or the range of final hammer velocities they are able to attain with either a struck or pressed tone etc.

[hardy_practice]

'I am not reacting to the papers or to Ortmann. I object against those who misinterpret the results of those papers and claim that it doesn't make any difference at all whether you lift and drop a body unit or whether you stay on the key surface; all you have to do, they say, is control the speed of the hammer.'

I'll clarify the big thing Ortmann showed (and it's in that fig 1 diagram) - if you depress the key starting not from the surface, the key will go faster than the finger.  The finger eventually catches up.  This means you have far less control than depressing from the surface when key and finger velocity will be the same throughout.

[dima_76557]

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[hardy_practice]

May I tell you a secret? I'm at my best when I give up control and simply let my ears and imagination guide me.

Me too.