Best upright piano

[20yearbreak]

I'm looking for a real upright piano!  It's exciting  Has to be an upright or my wife will throw the veto.  I personally like grands a lot better.  I played a nice grand last week and literally felt the base on my face.  That is awesome.

I currently practice on a nice Yamaha weighted keyboard.  I really like the keyboard as I can throw on headphones and practice a section as much as I want without driving my family crazy.  A real piano is in order though.

I've played new Kawai, Boston, Essex and Yamaha uprights recently.  I actually, liked Yamaha and Essex the best.  Generally, any piano over $6000 I seemed to like.  I really liked the Yamaha U1s and U3s.  With a $9000 price tag, I was thinking maybe I should try and pick one up used around the $3500 range. 

I've looked at a few pianos off craigslist by non-dealers and been disappointed.  People seem to think their pianos are better than how they sound in my opinion.  I keep hoping to find a great old piano but just haven't found it...  so far the old pianos I've looked at have either had major issues or sounded clickedty.

So I've rambled a little.  Should I give up on the idea of finding a good old piano?  I do have an ace in the hole.  I know a piano repair man.  I would bring him out before buying anything but I haven't even gotten that close.

Are there good old brands from say 1890-1930 I should look for on craigslist?

Are there any other brands other than Kawai, Boston, Essex and Yamaha I should try out if I go the brand new route for an upright?

[indianajo]

According to some site "how to buy a piano" uprights are pre WWII are usually 44-48" tall and weight >400 lb.
They called post war pianos of 36-40" height consoles, and 44" studio pianos.  These weigh 300 lb or less.
If you play fast at all you don't want one shorter than 39" with the drop action.  
I detest the sound of Yamaha studio piano my church dropped $$$$ on. I won't even sing with it.  It so soft needs a **** Yamaha sound system to be heard in a 300 seat auditorium.  The bass notes are dull and lifeless.  Piece of ****.  I think they bought it because the salesman has beautiful blue eyes.  Several satisfied custormers have told me about him.  
I prefer a bright loud Baldwin Acrosonic from the fifties or sixties, 40" height.I play an Acrosonic some Saturdays at the "free dinner" in downtown Jeff, in a 200 seat fellowship hall, and it has no trouble being heard without electronics.  In 1982 at a store in KC,  I tried an Everett studio, owned by Yamaha at the time,  against a Sohmer 39 console and a Steinway studio.  The Sohmer had the best sound IMHO. The Steinway had a heavy action like a grand, which is good for practice if you are going to perform on grands, but is too heavy for my light bone structure.  The Everett and Steinway had dull monophonic bass.  The Sohmer has beat frequency bass, which in this size sounds better to me.  All three were fast enough and had consistent soft action.  
I found a 1941 Steinway 40 console on craigslist in 2010 and I believe the Sohmer was copied from that.  It is very fast, has better bass than the 82 Steinway 44, and holds pitch longer than the Sohmer 39.  I'm keeping them both in case I find someone to play duos with, (not very likely in this town without paying a pro). BTW the 1941 Steinway hadn't been tuned since 1966 and sounded awful, which is how I got it instead of the other seven lookers. It also had a lot of child toy damage to the veneer.   I took seven tunings to get the Steinway to pitch, which it held nicely for four years.  
Other quality fifties sixties seventies early eighties pianos are Wurlitzer, Sohmer, Hamilton by Baldwin, Mason & Hamlin, Chickering, possibly Kohler and Campbell.  Prewar add Knabe and a bunch of other brands, they were built from kits back then.  Don't try a former player piano, all the ones I have tried sound like ****.  You can tell by the little door in the front for the rolls.  When an upright shows up at Salvation Army, I try them.  Some pass my speed test, some sound good, but the ones that cost more are the ones with decorations on the front.  Prewar Uprights are hard to move and are frequently missing ivory pieces, which can be replaced with plastic and glue.  Look to see how many dampers are missing, the cheaper ones are missing an octave and a half.  
Of the above, the Wurlitzer studio at one church is loud and mellow without much attack.  Baldwin Acrosonics are loud and have a distinct attack ping, which  I like. Baldwin Hamiltons are fast and consistent enough, softer than the Acrosonics, and mellower if you like that tone.  The Sohmer 39 has more ping than the Wurlitzer or any Hamilton I've played (several).    I triedd a Mason & Hamlin spinet (36) at Goodwill I really liked the sound of, but a 36 is too slow for my repretoire.   Some store brands are okay, some are junk, if you have time to go out and inspect one it could be a real bargain.  I've played a "Goodall" studio at a nursing home that was really nice, but I think that was a store brand as I've never seen a listing for another one.    
After the mid eighties, all these brands had their factories closed except Sohmer and Steinway, and the names were sold off to megacorperations that use them to import **** from the orient. I played a Wurlitzer from the nineties last year, the notes could not hit consistently when you played softly.
Brands to avoid are Winter, and the Kimballs made in my county did not hold up to use in US Army clubs, they were always torn up.  Both these get a premium here on craigslist, that must have been some salesman. My high school friend that is a physician bought new a "superior" Pearl River studio in 2009 right before I bought the 1941 Steinway.  He's replaced three strings in one location, the dealer won't come out on warrenty anymore because he lives 40 miles from Houston, and he doesn't play it.  I'm putting an hour on the  1941 Steinway every night.  The Steinway has one spliced string in the 3 string area, but it sounds okay if slightly different.  
When looking on craigslist, check every note for sticking, but notes that don't repeat due to a broken leather strap can be repaired in 1 minute with polyester shirt fabric.  Play one note as fast as you can with two hands to see how fast the action is.  Look at the back for a cracked soundboard.  Look inside for hammers scooped in the middle by too many hours (most used Steinways have this problem) hammer shafts bent,  cracked iron frame, mouse eaten hammers or dampers. Play as softly as possible to see if it is consistent, and as loud as possible to check for worn pins that double strike.  Look for broken strings, but don't worry a lot about a splice.   For $200-300 don't worry about the pedals not lifting the dampers or dropping the hammers for soft, the movers often mess up the rods and they can be replaced by all-thread.  Even a broken pedal can be replaced by a metal bar without much work, although i've never had to do it yet.   I do have a vise to saw off the steel stock, drill the hole, and a body grinder to grind the end from square to piano shape.  
 There is a nice upright at Salvation Army now that has three missing hammer shafts, ***?  I'm looking for a tinkly prewar upright for my country trailer, to play ragtime and JoAnn Castle/Frankie Carle arrangements on. A prewar Steinway upright with good hammers went here for $300, but the dealer got it before I did.  
So have fun.  Find a source of truck and helper before the used piano, the best craigslist deals have to be moved out before the house sells or the carpet man comes, and usually are horribly out of tune.  You have to move fast.  Harbor Freight dollys the wheels won't roll, but the rental dolly from U-haul seems to be okay.  New Haven Moving Equipment rubber pad dollies are the best, but they moved to the exurbs, so I bought a 1200 lb rubber pad dolly from mcmaster.com with 5" wheels that rolls very well.   I'm tuning myself with a tuning fork, two rolls of nickels , a quarter drive socket and a matching long arm allen wrench.  but my wrists are getting arthritis, I'm thinking of buying an actual long arm tuning wrench this month.  The top octave, you need an ear reference to get over the out of tune harmonics, I use a Hammond H100 organ.  

  

[chrisbutch]

Steingraeber 138, no contest.

[iansinclair]

The big uprights from around 1890 to 1910 era can be very good.  I have a very nice Steinway from that era (1904); I don't play it that much, but it is quite enjoyable.

As Indianajo noted, avoid post WWII consoles, although my sister has a 1930s Steinway console which is a delight to play -- very fast and light action.  Not, of course, all that much volume, but a lot of dynamic range anyway.

The better ones will hold a tune well.  You will want to have a tech. check the action and the soundboard, to make sure there are no problems.

Moving them can be a bit of a bore.  They are heavy.  They are also topheavy, and having one tip over on you going up the stairs can ruin your whole day...

[richard black]

I would also vote for the big Steingraeber as the best upright I've ever played, of any period or price. Not cheap, though.

My 1987 Ibach (118cm, I think) is one of the best uprights I've ever played, but Ibach production was a bit patchy round then so you can't take that as a general recommendation. However, if you see one offered and have a chance to try it, it will be worth a look at least.

Bösendorfer uprights are consistently very fine but expensive.

Steinways are variable but always decent at the very least.

Bechsteins can be very good indeed but over the company's 150-plus-year history have varied a lot and of course some are now very old, so look carefully.

Lots of manufacturers gone and largely forgotten made some very good uprights, I've played one or two excellent Lipp instruments, for instance.

I personally find modern Yamaha uprights perfectly hideous. I prefer Kawais, but I wouldn't say they're great pianos, and I wouldn't use a Boston to prop a door open.

Being in the UK I almost never see American pianos (well, apart from Steinway, of course, and most of those sold in Europe are built in Europe) so I can't comment.

[20yearbreak]

Thanks for all the advice.  It sounds like if money is no object Steingraeber is the best.  Those do look nice but I'm not sure on the price tag.  I guess it's the same price as a new SUV. 

Sounds like I can find a good old piano.  I just need to keep looking.  I think I read somewhere that more pianos were produced before the radio and TV era.  It was a primary means of entertainment back then.  I sometimes thing I was born in the wrong era. 

[withindale]

You are right about finding a good old piano but remember you will probably have to put some work into it.

I am also in the UK so I looked for larger German pianos. They are not so easy to find but I eventually came across mine in a hidden corner of the internet. It's dimensionally the same as a Steingraeber 138 though 90 years older.

Of course a new Steingraeber would be nice to have but I did not think I was missing all that much when I compared the two - certainly when I thought about the cost of the upgrade.

Good luck with your hunt.

[hfmadopter]

After reading indianajo's extensive message I can't stress enough that "all grands" do not have heavy action any more than I can say all uprights have slow action. However I have played some old uprights with fabulous tone but slow action FWIW. So in looking at some older pianos be careful of that, make sure they repeat quickly at least. And do bring that tech to see your final choices if to go used.

I've played on some nice old Baldwins.

Not being a fan of Wurlitzer, still one of those fooled me too.

Overall I am not a fan of upright pianos period. But that's me and we are speaking of you. In my house I over ruled about the upright vs grand situation. Some people look at a grand as an obstruction in their house, from an artists point of view it's an instrument that responds correctly, feels right that you can meld with, fall in love with musically. That's important to have if that is what you need and I did.. I brought up , conversed about grands, convinced etc. until my wife was on board. I wasn't buying a piano I didn't want to play, that's just plain stupid. Out and out was not happening. Now she won't let it go ( was thinking of upgrading for a while there) !!! I wasn't going to go out and look at upright pianos though, I don't even like them and had one that was already irritating me. However I do wish you luck.

[awesom_o]

Although I don't particularly care for their grands, Schimmel makes several awfully good upright pianos!

At the lower end of the price spectrum, a nice second-hand U1, or a new Ritmuller, are very good.

For what it's worth, I wasn't impressed by the big Steingraeber upright (although their grand pianos are to die for)!

[20yearbreak]

So how did the story end for me?

I came really close to buying some really old pianos.  I was going to buy an 1880 Weber upright.  There was 1 "b" key that worried me and before I could get it checked out someone bought it.  It had really nice Rosewood so it may have been just for the look of the piano.  The sound on that upright was very unique.

Mason and Hamlin made some good old uprights.  I thought about buying one I looked at but the touch was just too light for me.  The bass was like nothing you'll hear on any modern upright.

I played a few old Steinways that were nice also but the price point made me hesitate.  People like their Steinways.

So my journey ended with finding a used U1 on the very cheap.  The exterior had a few small cosmetic issues but the interior was as clean as you could get.  It had barely been played.  It was a deal I couldn't pass up.

Overall, I'm very happy with my purchase.  Eventually, I may need to get an old upright from the 1880-1930's for my basement though.