Permanent memory, building a repertoire

[stefo78]

Hello,

Two years ago I changed my method of work, realizing that I was used to rely only on muscle memory, and that was not good for the permanence of my memory, and for my play and my motivation.
So I started to do mental practice, memorizing with "keyboard memory" and mental practice my pieces as often as I could, becoming more and more aware of the usefuleness of this method.

That was two years ago. Now, I learnt some pieces but I need to maintain them. Some mental parts are sometimes lost, and I need to recheck them regularly. But the bad thing is that I fear there will be a moment when the work time will be only spend on maintaining pieces, and I will be unable to learn new pieces ; I would be afraid to not be able to increase my repertoire.

So,
- do you experience this and how do you deal with that ?
- is there a moment when the piece do not need to be maintained anymore ? (maybe after numerous relearning ?) ; a moment I could have not came across since now since I'm rather young with this method ?
- do you spend time maintaining pieces ?

I'm really concerned about the time in front of me, it's better to think that in maybe 20 years, my repertoire will be ten times more than mine today. It's worst to think that in 20 years, i will only know a volume of music not so much more than of today.

Thanks,
Stefo

[verqueue]

I have the same problem... I had a moment in my life when I felt that everything I do in my practicing  is maintaining pieces. I didn't have time for fresh music. I didn't want to be a person who plays the same pieces every time... It was a year ago.

Year ago I decided to drop all the pieces which I was maintaining. Just let them go, even if it meant that I would forget them. The funny thing is that I still remember a lot from them, but not good enough to play them right away without a score. I have blanks. My fingers don't remember some passages too, but I think that for even major works it will be maybe week or two to recall them.
I tried with Chopin's Ballade g minor and was successful in one week, I maintained this piece for three years. The second funny thing is that after one day of practicing Ballade I felt that I didn't practice it for maybe a month.

Of course I don't know how much I'll forget for longer time than a year...

Now I don't spend time maintaining pieces in my "every day" practice - I decided that every year I'll devote two weeks to recall pieces I want have in my "on-call in two weeks" repertoire.

I think that if you know piece well, it's not easy to completely forget it. What's the point in maintaining too many pieces, when so much beautiful music awaits? For me it's very hard to find a point, when I should let the piece go, but it's something necessary when repertoire grows bigger and bigger.

I want to clarify that recently I rarely play in public and I don't make money for living by playing piano.

[pianoplunker]

Hello,

Two years ago I changed my method of work, realizing that I was used to rely only on muscle memory, and that was not good for the permanence of my memory, and for my play and my motivation.
So I started to do mental practice, memorizing with "keyboard memory" and mental practice my pieces as often as I could, becoming more and more aware of the usefuleness of this method.

That was two years ago. Now, I learnt some pieces but I need to maintain them. Some mental parts are sometimes lost, and I need to recheck them regularly. But the bad thing is that I fear there will be a moment when the work time will be only spend on maintaining pieces, and I will be unable to learn new pieces ; I would be afraid to not be able to increase my repertoire.

So,
- do you experience this and how do you deal with that ?
- is there a moment when the piece do not need to be maintained anymore ? (maybe after numerous relearning ?) ; a moment I could have not came across since now since I'm rather young with this method ?
- do you spend time maintaining pieces ?

I'm really concerned about the time in front of me, it's better to think that in maybe 20 years, my repertoire will be ten times more than mine today. It's worst to think that in 20 years, i will only know a volume of music not so much more than of today.

Thanks,
Stefo

You have done well to understand motor memory vs "keyboard memory".  When I have practiced to the point I can play it well, I put it on the back burner for future revisit. I can pick it back up with just a couple of practice sessions.  I  only maintain  what I am planning on performing soon.
Other than that, it does not seem very efficient to spend time maintaining when I can pick it up quickly later. 

[louispodesta]

You have done well to understand motor memory vs "keyboard memory".  When I have practiced to the point I can play it well, I put it on the back burner for future revisit. I can pick it back up with just a couple of practice sessions.  I  only maintain  what I am planning on performing soon.
Other than that, it does not seem very efficient to spend time maintaining when I can pick it up quickly later. 

Regarding the last two prior posts, I state the following opinion:  1)  How much repertoire do you want to maintain?  If you are not a concert pianist, then you keep up as much as you want.

2)   If in fact you are a performer, then:   very well said.
 

[indianajo]

Having dropped piano for 15 years and not concentrating for another 41 years due to intense employement, I feel qualified to answer.
I memorized everything as a child by practice, without any key names or other memory tricks.  At some point I just got bored with looking at the music, before I could actually play the piece perfectly. So yes this is motor memory, not involving the cortex or conciousness. The way a baseball player remembers how to throw a double play. 
When I go back to old pieces, if I don't have the fingerings written down I used, sometimes I stumble for a few times trying out fingerings.  But once I figure out what fingerings I was using (usually not the official ones, my hands are shaped totally different than northern Europeans)  it all comes flowing out again.  The kinesthetic sense is different now, as I am 45 years older and muscles are stiffer and slower, the tendons are tighter.  But the intent of what I was reaching for is all still there. 
Revisiting old pieces is a matter of hours of practice, not hundreds of hours. 

[bobert]

- do you experience this and how do you deal with that ?

Yes, I maintain a repertoire and I also always keep learning new pieces.  For me, what happens is that I eventually become either so bored or so thoroughly familiar (kind of the same thing) with a piece that it's basically dropped from maintenance and this opens up space in the rotation.  However, I have a set of caveats:  always make it a point to have a clean record of the phrasing, articulation, dynamics, and fingerings, so if one wishes to pick up the piece again, they don't have to reinvent the wheel, as it is very frustrating to have to waste time on things already thought about and having expended a great deal of effort on.  (On the other hand, if it seemed some aspect of the piece never really clicked, especially the fingerings, it is almost always better to start afresh).

- is there a moment when the piece do not need to be maintained anymore ? (maybe after numerous relearning ?) ; a moment I could have not came across since now since I'm rather young with this method ?

Not that I've experienced (see above).  It's more a voluntary choice than anything else.  Sometimes I overlook a piece in the rotation and suddenly remember, "Oh yeah, there's that Bach invention I haven't played in a month."

- do you spend time maintaining pieces ?

Yes, around 50% +/- of my practice time, some days more, some days a great deal less.  Usually, the pieces most in need of maintenance will order themselves to be rehearsed.

Disclaimer: I am not a concert pianist or piano teacher, and I do not earn my living playing the piano.  I play the piano for my own enjoyment and anyone who cares to listen.  But I like having built a repertoire because, for me, the difference between reading a piece and actually "knowing" it is night and day. 

[quantum]

IMO, it is important to define the purpose of maintaining repertoire, and craft a workflow around it.  Even for a working pianist, it is very unlikely that he/she will need their entire rep performable within a short time frame.  

You may wish to create several categories of pieces for which you are doing maintenance work, as opposed to grouping all maintenance pieces under the same work load.  Some suggestions:

Always ready to perform - if someone randomly asks you to play without any notice.

Performing soon - say if you have a recital in one week

Performing in the not to distant future - say a month or two from now.

Want to perform next year - getting yourself prepared early.

Digging the piece out for fun or interest - no per-determined date for performance yet.

Challenge pieces - material that may take you longer then normal to work at.

[stefo78]

Interesting comments, thanks. I need to think about all of this.
I just came across this Bernhard post that gives something else :
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,4689.0.html
In fact it seems that I'm more looking for "omniscience", and this would be possible... Any comments on this below ?

BTW, I'm not a concert pianist, I mainly play for myself.

Learned: you can play a passage/piece perfectly at the end of the practice session, but the next day it is all gone, or it is full of mistakes. (if it is full of mistakes, you may be practising too much, beyond the point of diminishing returns), You need to keep practising from scratch without skipping any step and without cutting any corners. But it will not take as long as the first time around.

Mastered: You now can just go to the piano the next day and play the section perfectly. Now you have two choices: just play through this section a couple of times 2 – 3 times a week. (You may not even need to do this, if you are joining this section to another one – since this joining practice will take care of it). Or you can neglect it and relearn it from scratch in a couple of months (this is really for complete pieces, rather than for sections).

Omniscience: You can play your piece even if you have not touched it for the past 30 years. You can get to omniscience by repeating your piece every day for ten years (say), or after forgetting and relearning it from scratch 3 or 4 times. I like the second approach the best because:

1.      It is always exciting to learn a piece (even if it is one you already learned once).

2.      It is doubly exciting to learn a piece in a fraction of the time (it will be a fraction of the time if you have learned it once).

3.      It gives the piece a rest and gives you time to improve your technique and understanding of the piece. So when you come back to it, you will relearn it in a vast improved way. The alternative will most likely result in “burn-out” you will end up hating the piece.

4.      It is far more efficient and time saving – even though it may not seem so  at the time to one’s perception.

[bernadette60614]

Not a professional, but every Friday I just play.  I don't practice, I just play.  Sometimes I'll play for 30 minutes, sometimes for 2 hours.  It is a great deal of fun to see how a piece that almost had me at tears two years seems so much fun.

I don't make a living playing, but I think as someone who doesn't...if it is all practice, and no playing, why practice?